Help! - Renovation turning into new build - Masonry vs Prefabricated, and if prefabricated, what brand???

[sasecool]

All, first time here..and maybe this has been discussed here, but I'm having a hard time on what to do on these two issues.
We are renovating our vacation home, which had a masonry chimney with a heatilator insert build around '65. I've been told that the chimney is shot and so is the heatilator. Now I'm trying to figure out what to do in terms of options. This is a renovation, but it's basically everything from the foundation up.. the house is being rebuilt. I'm having a hard time deciding what to do, mainly because I love the 'idea' of a masonry fireplace..but I'm not sure it's more than that. I think if I was building this as our forever vacation home (we plan on selling this to a family member in 10-20 years), I would do the masonry..but we are not,so It's hard for me.

This is a vacation home, only cold during the short winter on Long Island. We love wood burning. Won't really use it for heat, but will occasionally heat some food items for the novelty on it (like maybe letting a kid roast a marshmellow). Maybe used 1-3x/year. We like the look of a masonry type fireplace, so we would build something that looks like it was. i.e. one of those that looks like an insert/stove is not for us.

Many of the folks (contractors) I talk to recommend the prefab option, but I can't tell if they are biased based on ease of install/moving things along, or if it's really the right thing for me. From our perspective, there seems to be only two options:

1. Masonry Fireplace / Chimney. I have to admit, I like the idea of a hand-made masonry fireplace,and the longevity of it all. I love the aesthetics, and it feels like it would be more substantial. We can afford it, but the money in the budget might be nice for something else (6k more than other option). Negatives include potentially higher up keep, potential for more cost if damaged, etc.

2. Insert/prefab fireplace with framed out chase, brick veneer on roof to make it look like a mansory style: The cheaper option. Seems like good enough, but I can't seem to think it'd be mroe substantial with the masonry kind. Positives: Maybe more efficient, burn less wood, potential for gas transition later if desired. Saves some space (chimney goes up through garage).

If I go with option number two, the dealer/contractor I've got a few options. Heat n Glo (exclaim or rutherford look good), Majestic (ashland or biltmore). The truth is, I have no idea about which would be better. I can't find any brand recognition of either, and I get mixed statements about one being junky and the other being good. Anyone have any thoughts on this as well? I'm really just beside myself

 

[Poindexter]

I suggest waiting for @begreen to chime in, he knows a LOT about a shocking number of burners.

In the meantime, the sound of my old heatilator crumping into the back lawn off my second floor deck is one of my five favorite lifetime sounds, up there with my wife saying "Honey, you were right" and the sound of bacon frying in a skillet, and two others, probably steak on the grill, maybe tire squeal under my GTO.

Anyroad, if you are only burning 1-3 times per year and selling to a family member I would A) ditch the heatilator and B) ping the family member.

It warmed my heart to read your line "mild Long Island winter." I truly smiled and I haven't been smiling enough lately, so thank you.

Given your implied budget, I got to tell you I am not a fan on fireplace inserts masquerading as wood stoves. I used to live back east, I know there just isn't one or two or five standard fireplace shapes. But an insert is a compromise. A mass of compromises really. There are, in my mind, too many folks who simply cannot afford to demolish a fireplace (ambience burner) and put in a freestanding wood stove for heat. So there is a market for inserts, but it makes me sad.

One thing you seem to have is adequate budget to (possibly) have your existing masonry reworked to an actual Rumford fireplace. I would have to google search, but there were a few in the Albany/ Schenectady/ Troy area of New York where I used to live long ago. Compared to lesser fireplaces, an actual Rumford can reflect a fair bit of heat into a room; enough to make me sweat in my tuxedo at whatever swanky place I was. It would likely be more expensive than just having a mason toss some firebrick into your empty fire box when your heatilator casts off its mortal coil. For a true Rumford the smoke shelf will need to be 5-6 feet above the floor.

Another option, depending on your intended buyer, is to rip out all the masonry and put in a free standing wood stove. This is getting tricky with the current EPA regs, but you might could rip out the masonry ($ unknown), put in a class A wood stove chimney (probably close to $5k) and then get a free stander wood stove ($3-4k) that could be both an efficient heater in the future and serve as a toy for the grandkids in the short term. Choosing between a good Rumford fireplace (there used to be several guys in Western Mass) and a good 6" class A chimney with a decent freestander underneath kinda depends on your target buyer's desires.

The third choice, and least attractive to me, would be to not commit to either. You could rip out the heatilator and very likely put in an insulated chimney liner, and a block off plate, and some Rock wool in the gaps between the liner and masonry, and then put a fireplace insert (masquerading as a wood stove) in your existing masonry.

A fairly active user here, @stoveliker , I think lives on Long Island and is using a stove pretty similar to mine for heat. His is in his basement if I recall, and he 'lives' upstairs; so less than ideal situation for the stove, but he might have dealt with some of the same dealers you are talking too.

If you got the dollars and the space you could consider running a double chimney, one for a Rumford with an adjacent class A at 6" for future heater install. Put the connector as high up on the stone work as code allows so the freestander on your spacious hearth will run its best someday. My next hearth will extend at least 48" from the opening of the stove, plenty of room for my wife to put down a yoga mat and cavort on the warm hearth in front of the stove on your 'mild' winter nights.

I am, as you can tell by location, heavily biased towards efficient heating. Good luck and best wishes.

 

[stoveliker]

Not much dealer experience here.
However, for something that gets used only 3 times a year, an open fireplace will suck out a lot of heat during the Nov. - March days.

I'd go with something that you can close off to avoid that, but that can also burn with the doors open to have the fireplace experience. I don't know enough about this type of installs to recommend something, but I suspect a zero clearance fireplace may be best.

I second the call to begreen.

 

[sasecool]

Thanks to the replies.. To clarify, the chimney and the fireplace I have been told need to go, so this would be a fresh, new build. So I can do whatever I want, don't need to rework anything.

 

[stoveliker]

Then I'd not spend the (large amount) of money remaking a masonry fireplace. At least, I understand masonry fireplaces are quite expensive to build (@bholler ?)

Regarding longevity, a masonry fireplace also needs maintenance to reach that longevity.

Given that you don't like the stove look, I'd go with a zero clearance fireplace that can also burn with the doors open. It avoids wasting a lot of heat thru the chimney when not in use, can provide an open fire experience, and can burn for some heat with the doors closed as well.

 

[bholler]

Yes a full masonry fireplace can easily exceed $20000

 

[stoveliker]

and zero clearance fireplaces can be built with many different trims/looks. So it gives you options for the aesthetics you want.

 

[PAbeech]

Then I'd not spend the (large amount) of money remaking a masonry fireplace. At least, I understand masonry fireplaces are quite expensive to build (@bholler ?)

Regarding longevity, a masonry fireplace also needs maintenance to reach that longevity.

Given that you don't like the stove look, I'd go with a zero clearance fireplace that can also burn with the doors open. It avoids wasting a lot of heat thru the chimney when not in use, can provide an open fire experience, and can burn for some heat with the doors closed as well.

Yah an efficient zero clearance fireplace would be most practical especially one that can be used with the doors open. And when you want to get some heat it can provide that as well.

 

[john26]

If everything has to be removed you might consider a high efficiency zero clearance unit, something like a Pacific Energy FP 30, Kozy Heat or Osburn and Valcourt that are made by SBI and more budget friendly. There are lots of peole on here that heat with them and are very happy with the results. I use 2 different fireplaces inserts not at the same time but have no problem heating my home . The down side to inserts an ZCs are they need a blower to distribute heat, most ZC require them, my inserts do not but I choose to use them to push the heat out. Where a free stander does not. If I had a blank slate I would probably choose a stove for 2 reasons. 1 Blower not required good for power outages. 2 A stove is much easier to swap out down the road.
I would definitely install a high efficiency ZC before I spent the money to build masonry, (install insert later) or put in a fake ambience fireplace.

 

[sasecool]

If everything has to be removed you might consider a high efficiency zero clearance unit, something like a Pacific Energy FP 30, Kozy Heat or Osburn and Valcourt that are made by SBI and more budget friendly. There are lots of peole on here that heat with them and are very happy with the results. I use 2 different fireplaces inserts not at the same time but have no problem heating my home . The down side to inserts an ZCs are they need a blower to distribute heat, most ZC require them, my inserts do not but I choose to use them to push the heat out. Where a free stander does not. If I had a blank slate I would probably choose a stove for 2 reasons. 1 Blower not required good for power outages. 2 A stove is much easier to swap out down the road.
I would definitely install a high efficiency ZC before I spent the money to build masonry, (install insert later) or put in a fake ambience fireplace.

It seems like most people are into the option of not rebuilding the masonry fireplace... I guess the question that follows, if you had all the money in the world.. what would you do?

What about the options for the fireplaces.. ie. the heat n glo vs majestic? Are these junkie brands?

I think if I was going to do the insert, yes, a zero clearance type deal, or one that looks like masonry (not the 'stove' looking ones, we like the open fire)

 

[bholler]

It seems like most people are into the option of not rebuilding the masonry fireplace... I guess the question that follows, if you had all the money in the world.. what would you do?

What about the options for the fireplaces.. ie. the heat n glo vs majestic? Are these junkie brands?

I think if I was going to do the insert, yes, a zero clearance type deal, or one that looks like masonry (not the 'stove' looking ones, we like the open fire)

No matter what money I had I would never spend any on an open fireplace honestly.

 

[sasecool]

No matter what money I had I would never spend any on an open fireplace honestly.

When you say open.. do you mean masonry.. or one that is open to see/hear the flame (either prefab or masonry) ??.. and why?

 

[bholler]

When you say open.. do you mean masonry.. or one that is open to see/hear the flame (either prefab or masonry) ??.. and why?

Any fireplace that doesn't have sealed doors and controlled combustion is what I consider an open fireplace. And I wouldn't spend my money on it because I am not going to spend my time and effort processing wood just to send most of the BTUs out the chimney.

This is just my opinion and doesn't mean that is what you should do. I am just answering your question

 

[stoveliker]

It seems like most people are into the option of not rebuilding the masonry fireplace... I guess the question that follows, if you had all the money in the world.. what would you do?

What about the options for the fireplaces.. ie. the heat n glo vs majestic? Are these junkie brands?

I think if I was going to do the insert, yes, a zero clearance type deal, or one that looks like masonry (not the 'stove' looking ones, we like the open fire)

Regarding your last paragraph, it appears you are mixing up zero clearance fireplaces and inserts?

An insert is a stove that has to be set in a masonry fireplace (that is up to code).

A zero clearance unit can be framed in.

 

[begreen]

It seems like most people are into the option of not rebuilding the masonry fireplace... I guess the question that follows, if you had all the money in the world.. what would you do?

It would help to know what specifically is wrong with the masonry work. If this is just the clay liner that is shot, then an insert may be a good solution. We need to know more specifics. Same thing for the old heatform fireplace. That may be shot, but an insert in there connected to an insulated stainless liner might work out well. Without more details on the specific issues and some pictures though, this is just speculating.

 

[sasecool]

It would help to know what specifically is wrong with the masonry work. If this is just the clay liner that is shot, then an insert may be a good solution. We need to know more specifics. Same thing for the old heatform fireplace. That may be shot, but an insert in there connected to an insulated stainless liner might work out well. Without more details on the specific issues and some pictures though, this is just speculating.

Well, I guess maybe what's hidden in this whole thing is that I've been told those are my two options (demo/rebuild=> masonry vs zero clearance) I have had multiple people (masons, fireplace folks, etc.) weigh in on it, and they have told me that the brick/mortar is failing, the clay flue is deteriorated some. From what I gather, however the heatilator whenever it was placed into the chimney, it was "wrong". I don't know how true any of this is, but the reality is, the house is a 1 story and we are going to two stories, so we would have to build up the chimney as well if we were going to restore. I've spoken to a bunch of contractors and I keep getting the same answer. So I'm left with what to do with what essentially is, a new build. I've attached a picture.

 

[begreen]

Yes, that's a heatform style metal fireplace. Heatilator was one of the companies that made that style and they got the name. This is much like tissues getting called Kleenex because of the popularity of the brand. I don't see anything horrible other than the demolition done so far. The masonry chimney can transition into a metal chimney if need be. There are fittings for that. However, it looks like demolition is already proceeding. Personally, at this point I would put in a wood stove, but I heat with the stove. For an ambiance setup, a contractor-grade zero clearance would work. It won't be a great heater, but it will be fine for 3 fires a year. Or if the budget is big, go for a masonry rebuild with a Rumford fireplace as was suggested.

How close are you to the shore? If this is on the sound or ocean, then a full masonry build may be worth it. Salt water is corrosive and steel that gets hot will rust, especially if at ambient cold temps and humidity a lot of the time.

 

[bholler]

I don't know why so many people insist on taking heatforms out that way it's such a waste of time and effort. Just cut it into pieces

 

[sasecool]

This is a house that is on the water, on a canal (about 40 ft from the house). The bay is just down the block.

My original plan was to keep it and fix it up and extend, but everyone I have come by says I should just start over.... anyone that has said we could rebuild it, said they wouldnt.. and the others that are specialists in restoring are too busy.
I'm getting quoted 24k to rebuild it plus whatever finish, vs 18 to do a zero clearance style prefab.

 

[bholler]

This is a house that is on the water, on a canal (about 40 ft from the house). The bay is just down the block.

My original plan was to keep it and fix it up and extend, but everyone I have come by says I should just start over.... anyone that has said we could rebuild it, said they wouldnt.. and the others that are specialists in restoring are too busy.
I'm getting quoted 24k to rebuild it plus whatever finish, vs 18 to do a zero clearance style prefab.

I hope that 18k is for a high efficiency unit.

 

[dafattkidd]

Hey I’m a GC on Long Island. I’m happy to come by and take a look for you if it’s within a reasonable distance from me.

You say the house is on a canal. Does that mean the your out East around Quogue/Westhampton Beach? My business is Hamptons based, but I live in Smithtown. I’m happy to give you some advice.

 

[sasecool]

Hey I’m a GC on Long Island. I’m happy to come by and take a look for you if it’s within a reasonable distance from me.

You say the house is on a canal. Does that mean the your out East around Quogue/Westhampton Beach? My business is Hamptons based, but I live in Smithtown. I’m happy to give you some advice.

Hah! Small world, yes it is!

 

[sasecool]

Anyone have thoughts on those two brands I mentioned, heat n glo and majestic? I'll probably go with the zero clearance option mentioned..but still struggling with it in the context of doing a new masonry...

 

[sasecool]

Yes, that's a heatform style metal fireplace. Heatilator was one of the companies that made that style and they got the name. This is much like tissues getting called Kleenex because of the popularity of the brand. I don't see anything horrible other than the demolition done so far. The masonry chimney can transition into a metal chimney if need be. There are fittings for that. However, it looks like demolition is already proceeding. Personally, at this point I would put in a wood stove, but I heat with the stove. For an ambiance setup, a contractor-grade zero clearance would work. It won't be a great heater, but it will be fine for 3 fires a year. Or if the budget is big, go for a masonry rebuild with a Rumford fireplace as was suggested.

How close are you to the shore? If this is on the sound or ocean, then a full masonry build may be worth it. Salt water is corrosive and steel that gets hot will rust, especially if at ambient cold temps and humidity a lot of the time.

You've got me nervous about the steel rusting. Even though its stainless (right?) doesn't that mean it should resist rust.. or does that become a problem around the water?

 

[stoveliker]

I'm not sure how close you are. I am half a mile from the Sound. I have a I think 10 year old) class A chimney on my (rarely used...) oil boiler, and at this distance there is no issue as far as I can see.

We do not have sprays of salt water here, though we do get sea-fog drifting in - I don't know how salty that actually is. We can smell the Sound in the right weather conditions.

Maybe see if you can see signs of issues at neighbors places (who may have been there longer)?