Help with design/location of stove for new addition

[ecfinn]

Hi all,

I posted a thread a week or so ago looking for help on a small stove for a kitchen. Since then I've been looking at Morso, Jotul, Quadrafire, Pacific Energy, and maybe a few more by the time I'm done.

What I'd like help with now is finding the best location for the stove in the room and the best chimney location/build for that space. I've attached a few drawings from my designer that show the proposed new spaces. I've also marked them up to show the proposed stove and chimney locations. This is at least what we're thinking about now. Nothing on this design is finalized but I'd like to upset as little of it as possible to avoid any additional design costs.

From the kitchen plan you can see the proposed layout of the kitchen space. On the rearA attachment you can see the existing chimney and the proposed location of the new chimney. Lastly you can see on the 2ndfl attachment why we want this outside the box of the house so it doesn't make the small bedrooms even smaller.

I realize this is a less than ideal location for a chimney since its not "inside" the house, its at the bottom of a roof instead of near the peak and its not centrally located (even in the room where were placing it.) So can I overcome these issues if I include the chimey chase within the insulated envelope of the house by insulating the 3 walls of the chase?

Any other comments/suggestions/ideas as to how to orient this stove in the kitchen?

Thanks,
Eric

 

[begreen]

I'm not sold on the proposed location for a wood stove. Can you post the whole first floor plan (including the old section) so that we have the big picture?

 

[Brian VT]

If you really want something in that spot I'd consider a small gas fireplace.
Something along these lines: (broken link removed to http://www.fireplacex.com/productuide/detail.aspx?id=251)

We (the cabinetry company I work for) were just at a homeshow in PA last weekend. Did you attend ?

 

[ecfinn]

I'm not sold on the proposed location for a wood stove. Can you post the whole first floor plan (including the old section) so that we have the big picture?

I'll do just that tomorrow when I'm in the office and can make a jpg of the PDF I've got of the plans. Essentially there are two doors into this room. Both rooms have doors at the opposite end of them (12' max distance) that enter the living room where my Lopi Revere is located. We use that for primary heat now and overnight burns so the stove has to be in this room somewhere. It'll be more clear tomorrow when I post the full plan hopefully.

As to going with a gas stove. I looked at that, but it won't really save us any money. We don't have NG at our house and although we're considering a propane tank install for cooking, I'm not convinced its cost effective for heating.

Thanks again and any other options will also be gladly considered.

Eric

 

[jotul8e2]

Hi all,

What I'd like help with now is finding the best location for the stove in the room and the best chimney location/build for that space...

I realize this is a less than ideal location for a chimney since its not "inside" the house, its at the bottom of a roof instead of near the peak and its not centrally located (even in the room where were placing it.) So can I overcome these issues if I include the chimey chase within the insulated envelope of the house by insulating the 3 walls of the chase?

Any other comments/suggestions/ideas as to how to orient this stove in the kitchen?

Thanks,
Eric

As for the stove placement in the kitchen - no. As drawn you will be sitting less than 36" from the stove while at the kitchen table, and probably closer since I think any stove, even with heat shields, is still going to sit farther out in the kitchen than pictured, at least from the side wall. This is simply not practical - even if you could bear the heat (you can't) a child could fall out of a chair and against the stove.

I cannot see a wood burning stove in the kitchen myself. The mess, the tight spaces, the potential for overwhelming heat from cooking AND the stove together just do not make sense to me. But, if you must, I'd think in terms of a solid masonry "fireplace" (actually it would only LOOK like a fireplace, but really be an alcove for the stove) built off the wall of your choice with a masonary exterior - brick, stone, whatever you like. Maybe even as a corner installation. This has several advantages: The stove will be placed inside the "fireplace" where there is less likelyhood of accident; it will gain you space for your table and chairs; it will have thermal mass to ease high temperature peaks; it will add visual appeal to the exterior and the interior; it will solve the problem of a chaise and the attendent condensation problems which may arise; the flue can go straight up if you buy a stove with a top flue exit; you can have a decorative mantel - difficult with a standard stove installation; and by using all masonary it solves all the clearance issues.

I can also tell you as a real estate professional, a nicely done "fireplace" stove alcove will be a WOW factor for a potential buyer - even if they never use it themselves. On the other hand, a stove, stovepipe, and thimble through the wall will have pontential buyers inquiring as to how much it costs to take all that out. Seriously.

Some thought would also have to be given to the choice of a stove. When mine are going good the radiant heat is such that it can be fairly strong seven, eight feet away directly in front of the glass. I think I would want something with either minimal or no glass. I think. I realize one of the real joys of today's stoves is watching the fire through the glass, so I'd really need to measure the spaces and think about it.

Now, back to the suggestion of propane - the best ones have amazing efficiency AND they have a feature no wood burning stove can match - they can be turned off; something to think about. But even there I think I'd build it into the exterior wall to look like a fireplace with the necessary framing and venting all on the outside of the proposed wall to maximize the interior floor space. With a propane appliance it need not be masonary, and need not go all the way above the roof line.

By the way, any combustion appliance in the kitchen is going to need its own dedicated combustion air source or it will be fighting with the range (and oven, if gas) exhaust vent.

Looks like it is going to be a great addition. Hope it all comes together.

Mark

 

[ecfinn]

Hi all,

I do really want something in that room. It doesn't have to be in that spot, but something in that room would be helpful. I've marked up the entire first floor plan and am including it in this post for future reference. As you can see our insert is not far away and with the stairs being right next to the insert I'm thinking we'll need supplemental heat for the first floor adjoining spaces since that heat will go up the steps.

Mark, I'm still thinking about what you've said and will reply to that in a little while. Thank you very much for your thoughts.

Eric

 

[ecfinn]

If you really want something in that spot I'd consider a small gas fireplace.
Something along these lines: (broken link removed to http://www.fireplacex.com/productuide/detail.aspx?id=251)

We (the cabinetry company I work for) were just at a homeshow in PA last weekend. Did you attend ?

Brian, One of the dealers I went to recommended that very same model. It certainly does take up less space and would be much less expensive to install. Again, my concerns are that it'll still be costly to operate due to the cost of propane. I was not at the home show last weekend. In fact I may need to investigate more home shows as I wasn't aware there was one.

Out of curiousity what cabinet company do you work for? Do you sell in SE PA? Any chance of a forum discount? Feel free to PM me if you'd like to keep this discussion off the open forum.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[begreen]

That helps. This will be a big change with a growing family. I'll bet you are all excited. Has building started?

What are the 2 unmarked rooms on the left of the plan? The reason I ask is that from a detached perspective, the floor plan looks like it isolates family activities instead of having a nice open flow. Our friends have a house like this. They call it the house of the doors. Every room is closed off and it will never heat with wood well.

So just supposing, what if where the kitchen is became the spare room (office?) and those two rooms on the left became family room, diningroom and kitchen with large open archways connecting them? Right now there is a large hallway dead space from the living room to the bathroom/laundry that bugs me. I'd also consolidate the laundry/1st fl bath into one room to reduce doors and the space taken up by them.

I've got to get ready for work, but here is a quick mod of the plans to show how things can be opened up to make the house seem more expansive, light and open. It will also allow the insert to heat the primary living areas much better.

 

[ecfinn]

BG,

It is a large change. Right now we're rather constrained by budget. Construction has not started but we're in the actively planning phase of things, that's for sure. The two unmarked rooms are bedrooms now. And in fact the new laundry room is also currently a bedroom. Its a one floor ranch with 1100 sq. ft. Its definitely a challenge to heat with wood. Actually what you see here is the designer's plans for how to tweak the bedrooms/bath and doesn't event reflect how bad it really is. Picture one small hallway with maybe 25 sq. ft. and 5 doorways and one closet off of it. We have a small fan on the floor of the hallway blowing into the stove room and individual 10" desktop fans in each bedroom blowing into the hallway. We can keep the bedrooms within 2-3 degrees of the living room this way. I also have horribly low and large transome's in the open spaces in the house so this change will allow me to move a lot of things around. The one unmarked room will likely be a den/office/kids play room in the future and the other will likely remain a guest bedroom, but that is far off in the future as we're not sure we can even afford to add the kitchen and second floor in our current budget. And that is with me doing a fair amount of the work myself to save money.

We are working with a designer and have been through numerous iterations and possibilities that have been tossed around to get to this point. I'm not sure I'm willing to move the kitchen etc right now mostly because of cost. We're planning to live in the house while this is going on and the less intrusion the better. We really can't afford to change all of the rooms in this go around. Not saying we won't 5 years down the road, but for now its just not possible. :-( Can't be overspending in these economic times...

Thanks again. Any ideas of how to better layout the kitchen for a better place to put a stove in there or am I beating a dead horse here?
Eric

 

[Brian VT]

This is with the little Jotul at 13" from corners of stove to walls. Might be okay.
Not really any options for range placement. It's pretty much got to be on that wall.

 

[begreen]

BG,

It is a large change. Right now we're rather constrained by budget. Construction has not started but we're in the actively planning phase of things, that's for sure. The two unmarked rooms are bedrooms now. And in fact the new laundry room is also currently a bedroom. Its a one floor ranch with 1100 sq. ft. Its definitely a challenge to heat with wood. Actually what you see here is the designer's plans for how to tweak the bedrooms/bath and doesn't event reflect how bad it really is. Picture one small hallway with maybe 25 sq. ft. and 5 doorways and one closet off of it. We have a small fan on the floor of the hallway blowing into the stove room and individual 10" desktop fans in each bedroom blowing into the hallway. We can keep the bedrooms within 2-3 degrees of the living room this way. I also have horribly low and large transome's in the open spaces in the house so this change will allow me to move a lot of things around. The one unmarked room will likely be a den/office/kids play room in the future and the other will likely remain a guest bedroom, but that is far off in the future as we're not sure we can even afford to add the kitchen and second floor in our current budget. And that is with me doing a fair amount of the work myself to save money.

We are working with a designer and have been through numerous iterations and possibilities that have been tossed around to get to this point. I'm not sure I'm willing to move the kitchen etc right now mostly because of cost. We're planning to live in the house while this is going on and the less intrusion the better. We really can't afford to change all of the rooms in this go around. Not saying we won't 5 years down the road, but for now its just not possible. :-( Can't be overspending in these economic times...

Thanks again. Any ideas of how to better layout the kitchen for a better place to put a stove in there or am I beating a dead horse here?
Eric

I think if you run the numbers, my suggestion will be less expensive. There are many less doors to frame in and buy. And less partitions. But most importantly is that the designer (to me) is wasting space and reducing light in the house. Having lived in both, I will always choose an open floor plan. You may intend to move on in 5 years, but with kids, one often tends to rethink that plan until they're in college.