Help with Ideal Steel?

[finkc]

A couple of months ago I posted on here about the arrival of my Ideal Steel. I think my post was Oct 7. Since then, I've burned at least a couple of cords in the stove, with mixed results. I talked to the nice salespeople at Woodstock, and they suggested I check with some of you in the forums who are using this stove.

Basically, I don't seem to be getting the heat production others are. Some background: I wouldn't consider myself an expert, but I've been heating my house in Wisconsin with wood almost exclusively for five years. My previous stove was a hearthstone homestead, which I loved, but was too small for my 2200 sq foot house. After reading this and other forums, I decided to go with the ideal steel, which is my first cat stove.

Just to get this out of the way, I'm now burning 1.5 yr c/s/s ash, along with some red elm and a little oak, all good dry stuff, even measured under 20 percent with a gadget. My draft was fine with my old stove, seems OK with this one.

When I engage my cat at about 300 or 350, many times the temp will sit, or even drop a little, after half an hour or so, at which time I open things up, and re-engage after I get more flame. I've done this dozens of times. Now quite tired of fooling with the stove, especially with these temps. I can't really afford to have the stove sit at 300 for an hour before it starts to heat up. My house temps plummets if I do.

Even when I am able to to engage the cat with some certainty, I'm still not getting the heat some report. I have a hard time getting the stove to 500 degrees, which is where I need it to be to heat my house. With my old stove, I would just keep adding splits. Can't do it with this one because it holds coals so well, the firebox would soon fill up with coals. I've really been trying to do complete burn cycles, but it's frustrating when my heat tops out at 425 and then drops off from that after a couple of hours. I've been keeping notes on the last few fires. I'm getting what I call useable heat (400 or above) for about 2-2.5 hours. The whole cycle for me, from 300 and back down to 300--lasts about 3.5-4.5 hours. This is no better than the little homestead. (Though I do have much better coal retention).

Any ideas? I'm very frustrated with the dozens (and dozens) of hours I've spent trying to get this thing dialed in.

 

[finkc]

I should also add that I've cleaned out the cat more times than I'd like to admit, and I've been using the cat "by the book" engaging it with flame in the box and with the temp 350 on the stovetop (not the flue because I have a double wall), then moving the air lever back to 1/3. I've had more luck waiting to engage the cat at 400. But the guys at woodstock say don't do that. I guess at that point, much of the good that the cat is supposed to be doing is lost.

 

[fire_man]

The easiest thing to do is go to a super market and buy enough kiln dried wood to fill that firebox.
I know you say its 1.5 yr c/s/s but it's worth a try. At least then you can definitely eliminate the wood supply.

I would first establish a hot coal base and then load up with the kiln dried wood.

You would be surprised how many people swear their wood is dry and later find out otherwise (me included!).

 

[finkc]

The easiest thing to do is go to a super market and buy enough kiln dried wood to fill that firebox.
I know you say its 1.5 yr c/s/s but it's worth a try. At least then you can definitely eliminate the wood supply.

I would first establish a hot coal base and then load up with the kiln dried wood.

You would be surprised how many people swear their wood is dry and later find out otherwise (me included!).

 

[Byrond]

A good friend of mine had the exact same issues. Swore off cat stoves forever. Went by his house last week to help him out. Took 3 8ft 2x4 cut to 18inces. First problem was a clogged cap screen.angle grinder fixed that. Loaded stove with 2x4 and built a top down fire. One thing led to another and now he is in love with ideal steel

 

[finkc]

Thanks! I will give this a try. Guys at Woodstock also suggested this. It's a cheap check and worth it?
I do stack single row, and bought the gadget this year just to be sure of moisture content...

 

[finkc]

A good friend of mine had the exact same issues. Swore off cat stoves forever. Went by his house last week to help him out. Took 3 8ft 2x4 cut to 18inces. First problem was a clogged cap screen.angle grinder fixed that. Loaded stove with 2x4 and built a top down fire. One thing led to another and now he is in love with ideal steel

 

[finkc]

Another good idea. Thanks. I wonder if many people criss-cross their firewood in the box, as in a top down fire. I did this a couple of times, but the pieces have to be the right size and you can't load as much. With my Hearthstone, I had to start from a few coals each morning, so I build a kindling fire, adding bigger pieces along the way. This way the temp got up fast and I had a sure fire. With the IS, I have so many coals I can just load it up, no kindling necessary, just some smaller splits or branches. It's easier this way, but I wonder if the fire is getting enough air.

 

[jeff_t]

How tall is your chimney?

Gotta watch the supermarket wood bundles. They aren't necessarily all kiln dried. Heat treated to kill bugs, in many cases.

 

[finkc]

How tall is your chimney?

Gotta watch the supermarket wood bundles. They aren't necessarily all kiln dried. Heat treated to kill bugs, in many cases.

About 5 feet inside. Another 7 outside? One 45 elbow.

 

[jeff_t]

Somebody on another forum said Woodstock recommends 17'. The 45 knocks a little of the effective height, as well.

Is it class A? Liner?

Is it possible to extend it? Even temporarily with a piece of cheap stove pipe, to see if it helps.

 

[Tenn Dave]

About 5 feet inside. Another 7 outside? One 45 elbow.

WOW, with only 12 feet this could really be a draft problem.

 

[finkc]

WOW, with only 12 feet this could really be a draft problem.

Thanks again for the replies. I should measure before I answer, but it's so cold out! Inside is 6 six feet including bend. I suspect outside is more like 8. It's stainless steel, double wall. Chimney was here when I moved in, which is why I never checked measurements. I suspected the draft was too much, with my old stove, because of how quickly it ate up wood, but it could be, with the cat, that it now needs more draft.

 

[Tenn Dave]

Don't know about the other wood, but 1.5 years of c/s/s is not nearly long enough for oak. Try more like 3+ years. Last year I burned 2 year old oak and hickory in my Woodstock Progress with mixed results. Stove top temps would not go higher then 375*. This year the same wood is now 3 years c/s/s and the stove performance is incredible. Stove top temps of 450 to 550 are no problem at all. I'm sure I could easily push it even higher, but the house would melt. And burn times increased significantly.

 

[mrmojo182]

my wood is a little wet, but the steel burns different than my englander, and took a little bit of adjustment to get use to. When I say wet, its been css for a year or two (really 2) but has gotten rain on it. However, i have no problem with 12 hour burns, and the thing heating me out of my house. now, I only have a 14ft to 16ft lined chimney (i never measured, but its right in there). I have the stove top temp guage that is old, an came over from the englander. Its placed in the rear of the stove top, after the cat, a few inches from the edge. I close the cat when this gauge gets over 200. I have to admit, I never really get the top over 400. 500 is possible, but thats way too hot for the room. Plus, remember this stove has the diffuser right over the cat, so I don't really know if this is the best spot to take the temp. With my crappy infrared from harbor frieght, there are other spots that are way hotter on the stove.

Anyway, I load the stove north to south on the bottom (leaving a little space on the sides), and east west on top row. really, I just stuff as much as I can in the top. when starting up from cold, it takes a little longer to get going, I might use a whole super cedar sometimes, depends on how wet I think the wood is. Anyway, I leave the door cracked to get it up to 150 or so, close door. watch temp climb to over 200. shut bypass. let that fire for a little bit longer, then start closing down in stages. I leave it open full bore about 10 minutes to make sure the cat keeps going. it takes about 30 to 40 minutes or so from cold and 20 to 30 minutes on reload. Also, I found that you are better off having shorter wood in the stove too. when the wood sticks all the way to edges there seems to be way less air flow. all my wood was cut for my englander (which I really stuffed in the stove) I've checked the cat a few times. Other than some of the paint coming off the diffuser above it, the cat is super clean.

As people suggest above, try the lumber over the grocery store stuff. Normally a lot of people on here do have issues with the wood, but I just wanted to let you know that it is possible to burn it. Leave the bypass open longer till some of that vapor goes up the stack.

 

[osagebow]

Is there buildup in the connector pipe? I had a bit and it reduced draft noticeably. You also might look into a chimney extender.

 

[Jo191145]

I should also add that I've cleaned out the cat more times than I'd like to admit, and I've been using the cat "by the book" engaging it with flame in the box and with the temp 350 on the stovetop (not the flue because I have a double wall), then moving the air lever back to 1/3. I've had more luck waiting to engage the cat at 400. But the guys at woodstock say don't do that. I guess at that point, much of the good that the cat is supposed to be doing is lost.

You have a short chimney, don't drop the air back so far. Let it rip at halfway or more. It's a hybrid, it will work either way and the cat will still be working. Keep those secondaries burning while the cats engaged. Should drive you out of the house. If you can't get the secondaries burning with the cat engaged there's a problem.
When you measured your woods moisture you split a piece of wood and measured the fresh cut, correct?

I just started using a catalyst stove this year with wood that's not as dry as I thought it might be. To produce heat I need to get the temps up high and keep them there otherwise I get the same as you. More air and reload while still hot. This causes lots of coals as you've seen. When they become too much I disengage the cat, crack the door open and let them jet blast for awhile. They burn up pretty quick while not losing too much stove temp.

I also split my wood smaller and stack it around the stove. Just two or three days makes quite a noticeable difference in its heat output and ease of use. I check them constantly with an IR thermometer. Never saw any piece get above 150. Average is 120. A good desert kiln drying just don't leave them there forever, rotate with use.

Another good thing to try is some Eco bricks or similar thrown in with your normal wood. 3 or 4 small bricks in a stove that size and see the difference.

 

[Woody Stover]

Gotta watch the supermarket wood bundles. They aren't necessarily all kiln dried. Heat treated to kill bugs, in many cases.

I was at a guy's house a couple months ago that had bought some gas station wood to burn outside. That stuff was so wet we could barely get it to burn at all, just smoldered and smoked. Get some of the compressed-wood logs, like BioBricks or similar at the local farm store. They are going to burn well. Then you can eliminate wood from the equation to some degree, if you still can't get the stove hot. Next is the flue system; Cap screen clean, chimney brushed? If the chimney's up to par, you should get at least decent draft with the low temps you'll be having in WI....

 

[weatherguy]

My PH has done what your describing a couple times, it happened when I switched to my oak that's been split for 3 years but a lot of splits are large so I figured maybe it wasn't as dry as it should be. I tried what Jo described and its been burning fine now with the big oak, maybe you just need to let it burn hotter before turning it down. I also put some smaller stuff on top of the large oak splits and that seems to help.

 

[finkc]

My PH has done what your describing a couple times, it happened when I switched to my oak that's been split for 3 years but a lot of splits are large so I figured maybe it wasn't as dry as it should be. I tried what Jo described and its been burning fine now with the big oak, maybe you just need to let it burn hotter before turning it down. I also put some smaller stuff on top of the large oak splits and that seems to help.

Thanks for all the great replies. I suspect that since the stove seems to work mostly as advertised sometimes that the problem is mine. I did just recently get to the part of the woodpile that has the oak mixed in (though I did measure that too after a fresh split: <20). Also, some of the pieces are larger than ideal, I think. I used to mix larger and smaller pieces because I needed the larger chunks to save coals overnight. Also, I split by hand. So, the wood may actually be part of the issue. Also, the chimbley. You'd think after I put so much time into the install that I would have checked to see if it was high enough. I did knock out a one-foot pice to raise the hearth ( and higher legs), but didn't think that would be an issue because my draft was so good before. I'll measure the outside length today and see if I can extend. Thanks for directing my attention there. It is cleaned out, as of the beginning of the season.

Part of my issue to is that it's been mild, mild mild, and then wham, below zero daytime for a week. So I wasn't really needing to test the stove, and, in this weather, I don't think any stove would heat my house adequately (2200 sq feet, lots of windows, high ceilings). There is definitely a lot more to think about with a cat stove.

Thanks again everyone. Here's my stove/install

 

[Tenn Dave]

Thanks for all the great replies. I suspect that since the stove seems to work mostly as advertised sometimes that the problem is mine. I did just recently get to the part of the woodpile that has the oak mixed in (though I did measure that too after a fresh split: <20). Also, some of the pieces are larger than ideal, I think. I used to mix larger and smaller pieces because I needed the larger chunks to save coals overnight. Also, I split by hand. So, the wood may actually be part of the issue. Also, the chimbley. You'd think after I put so much time into the install that I would have checked to see if it was high enough. I did knock out a one-foot pice to raise the hearth ( and higher legs), but didn't think that would be an issue because my draft was so good before. I'll measure the outside length today and see if I can extend. Thanks for directing my attention there. It is cleaned out, as of the beginning of the season.

Part of my issue to is that it's been mild, mild mild, and then wham, below zero daytime for a week. So I wasn't really needing to test the stove, and, in this weather, I don't think any stove would heat my house adequately (2200 sq feet, lots of windows, high ceilings). There is definitely a lot more to think about with a cat stove.

Thanks again everyone. Here's my stove/installView attachment 149759

Your install looks great. Once you get that puppy figured out I'm sure you will be very happy.

 

[Huntindog1]

You can split your pieces one more time. Load on a hotter bed of coals. Let the stove get a bit hotter before closing the bypass.
Add some kindling on restarts even tho you have hot coals the kindling will compensate for the little bit too much moisture in the main wood load.
The moisture can get up to the cat and keep it cooler and even make it harder to get the secondary air and secondary flames going. Its all about the heat building up in the box. Heat building Helps fire the cat and helps fire the secondary flames. If you burn up all your main wood load just trying to get the heat built up in the box leaves you not much left for a 10 hour heat cycle. I wouldnt be turning it down trying to get 14 hour burns but leave it open for like 9 hour cycles as that is plenty manageable. Its the kindling and even a firestarter on the kindling both loaded right on the hot coals that gets the fire box heated up quickly allowing you to get to say 400 and close the bypass. So the bigger pieces dont get to used up. Its the little bit of moisture that creates slow start up and poor performance. But its the kindling and fire starter on hot coals that will compensate for that. So leave a little space to lay that kindling on the hot coals even tho your thinking you could use that space for another big split. Try it.

 

[branchburner]

I did just recently get to the part of the woodpile that has the oak mixed in (though I did measure that too after a fresh split: <20). Also, some of the pieces are larger than ideal

I don't know what it is about oak, but I don't go by the moisture numbers, I go by the length of time c/s/s. I try to keep my oak stacked separate and give it three years min, while all other species get 1-2 year min. The ease of burn and heat output is SO MUCH better when my oak is older.

I also notice my stove may not perform well if I am using only large splits, and not mixing in some small (and very dry) splits, scraps or branch wood.

And I agree that extending the chimney might help greatly. Addressing not just one but all three of these factors should get your temps up, I think.

 

[finkc]

I don't know what it is about oak, but I don't go by the moisture numbers, I go by the length of time c/s/s. I try to keep my oak stacked separate and give it three years min, while all other species get 1-2 year min. The ease of burn and heat output is SO MUCH better when my oak is older.

I also notice my stove may not perform well if I am using only large splits, and not mixing in some small (and very dry) splits, scraps or branch wood.

And I agree that extending the chimney might help greatly. Addressing not just one but all three of these factors should get your temps up, I think.

I'm sitting here now with a stove top temp of 505, air control set at 1/2, with a mix of ash and red elm (love that elm, it's always dry). I think I'll try to pick around my oak. Also used kindling as huntingdog suggested. Funny after 5 years I had to unlearn that, and it may have ben the wrong move. Will plan to use more small pieces each time. However, I did wait until 400 to engage cat after trying and "stalling" at 350. 400 just seems to work better for me though it goes against the recommendation of the manufacturer. Maybe it's my draft or wood supply or whatever. I'll just err on the hotter side, at least during this extended cold snap.

A quick question about cat/secondaries. Do you all try to get the cat-only burn in a black box, for as long as possible, before the secondaries kick in, or do you not worry about it? The several times my stove has climbed to 500 on cat-only, I really feel like I'm getting away with something. But I can't replicate it with any certainty.

 

[Huntindog1]

Cat only burn in a black box not sure what you mean by that.
But usually with those hybrid stoves once you fire the cat its self sustaining.
As long as the temp doesnt drop too low it will self sustain.
So what you do is start backing the input air down and the cat remains active but the firebox temp gets too low for the secondary action of the secondary air causeing the secondary flames to ignite. So then all you have left is the cat glowing but just a small amount of flame on the wood left. The wood basically is them smoldering alot and that smoke is feeding the cat and the cat is burning up the smoke and maintaining the heat.