Help with Jotul - burn tube -- UPDATE --

[jeffee]

If anyone can steer me right it would be much appreciated -
The center tube isn't sitting flush on the notches of the side tubes. The baffle is connected to the center tube with a little knob that fits into a hole in the center tube. I can get it to where either the right side of center tube is sitting correctly OR the left side, but not both at the same time. It seems like the center tube and baffle need to go ~ an eighth inch or so toward the rear of the stove, but I can't get it to go. I'm thinking I may have loaded up a piece of wood against the baffle and pried it a bit out of position? I know it wasn't like this until recently, I just noticed it.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks -

 

[jeffee]

bump-

Any Jotul experts have any suggestions? I don't think there is any warpage.

 

[Todd]

Not familiar with your stove but that baffle should be flush with the back of the stove. Something is out of wack, Do you have a manual? Should have instructions on how to take out the baffle, maybe take everything out and back in?

 

[jeffee]

Thanks Todd.
The baffle seems like it is flush with the back of the stove, although the stove is over 2 feet long, rectangular shaped, so it is hard to positively look at this junction. I don't have a socket set, so I cannot disassemble the stove.

I called the dealer, who then spoke with someone from Jotul, who thinks that it may be a problem with the baffle - warped maybe? My dealer is ordering a baffle and tubes, and will send a service person out when the parts come in. I must say that I'm disappointed. I've had the stove for 13 1/2 months, and heat my home with it. I try to take great care of it.

According to the Jotul website, rust colored cast iron is a sign of over firing the stove. I do see on the middle tube some rust coloration, but the stove surface has never been over 600 degrees. When I bought it, I asked the dealer how he had ever seen their black bear run and he said he didn't think he'd ever gotten it over 600 or 650. I don't know if I COULD even get mine over 600 if I tried. So, I'm a bit confused about this issue.

 

[polaris]

I am not familiar with the inner workings of the 118. If you can remove the top of stove, then lift entire reburn unit up and out(may have to be pushed up from underneath). There will be a gasket along the edge on the underside that you need to be careful with. If it anything like the two Jotuls I have( and it may not be) then you can drop the unit back in squarely and it should line up provided it is not warped and it would take a whole lot of heat to warp the cast iron/ss unit. Mine have seen really high temps with no warpage.

 

[Highbeam]

The burn tubes on the non-cat stoves are made of stainless steel and not cast iron. They are supposed to look rusty, more tarnished really, but not flaking apart. These tubes tend to glow red on a hot fire and will take more abuse than cast iron.

 

[begreen]

Good to work with your dealer on this one. We had another 118 owner with a similar problem a little while ago.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/23539/

 

[jeffee]

Thanks folks.
Yes you're right about the tubes being ss not iron.
So I'm really confused as to why I could have baffle problems at this point, although this hasn't been confirmed. The baffle is not covered under warranty.

 

[jeffee]

BeGreen
Thanks for your reply -- and that link. Yes, this is quite interesting, my problem with the tubes does seem to be the same that that of the original poster in the link.

It would have been nice to see what the outcome was of that issue.

 

[Steve Z]

I have an old 118 so I'm not sure I can be of any help too you? I'm not sure what the new plumbing on the Blackbears looks like up top? Mine has a baffle plate that can only fit in two ways. The correct way or 180 degrees off (up side down). I have the notches that the baffles fit into on the sides though. If it's only 1/8th of an inch off you could take a small file and extend the notch a bit? If the stove is still under warrentee then by all means have the dealer replace it. By the way, what length of burn times do you get out of yours? Good Luck

PS: Sorry after reading the post and the 2nd link I can see that the new ones are nothing like mine. No tubes involved just the baffle plate on my old 118.

 

[jeffee]

I get excellent burn times. 6 or 8 hours if I am careful to fit enough wood into the stove. By this I mean that I can put a couple of pieces of kindling under some logs in the stove and it'll take off and get up to temperature quickly, even though the stovetop temp might only be 100 or 150 degrees.

 

[Corie]

I've muscled those tubes and that baffle in and out of that stove a few times. It's pretty easy to get the problem you're talking about, even with an unwarped baffle. Everything is so doggone tight up there, the only way I was able to get the placement correct was to actually unbolt the top of the stove. Fun fun.

 

[begreen]

Corie, what were the peak high temps you were seeing with this stove? 600 seems a little low, but I haven't run this stove.

 

[jeffee]

Thanks Corie,
That is interesting. I guess I would have to take out the baffle to really see and understand how exactly it fits in the stove.

It's surprising that the Jotul rep wouldn't know about this type of problem, as you say it is easy to get it. He thought it was a problem with the baffle, according to my dealer -- and if it turns out to be a baffle problem then I will be clueless as to why.

 

[stecy]

I am the earlier poster that BeGreen referred to. As it happened, I got another stove (that's another story in itself) and never entirely finished my troubleshooting. However I can explain my efforts so far.

First, let me say that Corie's praise of the design (can't find this post now, but in as I recall it he talks of discussing the design in detail with the original engineer) seems to be to be unjustified. The original 118 was so beautifully uncomplicated & reliable; retrofitting it to be EPA compliant should have been tested under field conditions for several years before bringing it to market, as it has a couple of major failings in my experience.

First, don't remove the backplate unless there is some clear necessity. The two lengthwise secondary air tubes are held in place by one nut each, easily loosened from the rear without disturbing the backplate itself. All three tubes can then be removed for examination. I did this twice; the first time there was no significant change upon reassembly in the misalignment. The second time I was more careful in inspecting the tubes - holding them up to a straightedge & discovering that each had a warp, presumably from heat.

It appears critical that the short tube be perfectly straight - or even perhaps with a slight bow towards the rear. They are not bendable with bare hands, but in an arbor press I was able to straighten the short tube with a little trial & error. This time things went together better, but not quite good enough. I was on the verge of trying a reverse bend when another stove arrived, and this project got sidelined.

Corie is may well be right that the top needs to come off to get everything back in place - and that I take to be a serious design failure, as with the force of stuffing that last log in, and the occasional fire that gets away, it seems inevitable that these will get out of alignment sooner or later. Stoopid! In particular the three points of attachment that the short tube has creates a triangle, which as we know from high school geometry produces a rigid structure. Have any one of these three points become dislocated in the slightest, and the tube will refuse to seat properly.

It is my suspicion that a great many (most? all?) black bear owners are suffering from this problem, but are not observant enough to have identified the exact problem, or for some other reason don't see fit to complain to their dealer. ( In my case, the dealer has gone out of the business, so he was no help.) I think that the problem is inherent in the design, which as I said earlier smacks of insufficient field testing.

That's all I have time for now. Perhaps more later.

Steve Clay-Young

 

[jeffee]

Thanks Steve.
I guess for now, I will ask my dealer to ask the Jotul rep how I can avoid this happening again. I can unequivocally state that the stove has never been overfired as described by Jotul in the manual -- it's never been above 600 degrees stove top, and I've never seen any part of it glow.

 

[jeffee]

I have yet to hear from my dealer -- I'm sure he'll get to me when the baffle and tubes arrive -- but I would really love to be armed with as much information about my stove, and Jotul, and just experienced folks' ideas on how best to handle this. My goal is to not have this problem happen again unless ten years have gone by give or take -- which seems like a more reasonable wear and tear period (?).

So I'm bumping this thread -- Thanks in advance if anyone can add to the very helpful posts that have already been offered.

 

[stecy]

Jeff

I have more to report - I just haven't been able to find the time to post it yet. Will try to make time soon.

Steve

 

[stecy]

Jeff

I've been to a nearby dealer's showroom a couple of times to look closely at a new Black Bear, and make comparisons to mine. As it happened, one of these times a Jotul rep was there, and although I wasn't able to talk to him directly, my problem was relayed to him, and the advise came back that it probably would be necessary to remove the top of the stove to get the tubes back in place. This is approximately what Corie reported. Needless to say, it is very annoying, at the least, to have to go to this extent to solve a problem that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

My analysis at this point suggests that the real culprit may not be the tubes themselves, but the fact that the baffle plate is very poorly retained in front by a couple of stainless clips. As soon as these clips loosen, which probably happens the first time you have a log stuck most of the way in and apply even a little force to get it home. Since the baffle slopes downward toward the back, it is very easy to find yourself in this bind.

So, coming back to the clips, it is somewhat of a mystery how they are supposed to work. I have stared at those in my stove, and in the new stove at the dealers. Their purpose must be to retain the front of the baffle, and certainly something has to do this, as otherwise the baffle can rise at the front something like 3/8' to 1/2". And of course, it that happens, the crosswise air tube can easily become dislodged and/or distorted. In my stove, these clips were flapping around doing nothing soon after I got the stove, but before the air tube problem manifested itself.

In summary - for this post anyway - my tentative conclusion is that the design of the baffle-retaining clips is very poor, and in short order the baffle becomes free to rise at least a small distance at the front. This movement allows the air tubes to lose their proper position, and from there things just get worse. I don't think that the baffle itself has necessarily become distorted, nor do I think that replacing it will do any good, as long as the clips that are supposed to keep it in place do not do their job. Perhaps, if working with the top removed, it might be clear how the clips were intended to be positioned, but as I said, from studying a new stove as well as my failed one, this is a mystery.

Let's see if the photo of a new stove I have attempted to attach comes thru. If so, you can see the clip at the front, and if you look closely, also the cast nubbin in the center engaging a hole in the top of the center air tube. Also, at the very back can be seen the bolt that retains the lengthwise tube.

Hope this clarifies my efforts to date. Ideally, Corie will chime in now, as he has done a complete disassembly, and, IIRC, was in contact with the designer of the stove. Corie, can you explain how these clips are supposed to provide positive retention of the baffle? If it is a mystery to you, could you ask the designer? As near as I can tell, the malfunctioning of these clips sets off a chain of events that leads to the air tubes becoming disconnected. In the extreme case, the crosswise tube can fall out altogether - this has actually happened to a friend of mine.

As I mentioned before, it is my belief that many if not most Black Bear owners must have this problem to some degree, but not be paving enough attention to notice it, of if they do, do not report it to their dealer. The friend that I mentioned who had the crosswise tube fall out onto the floor has said nothing to his dealer. Go figure.

Phew, all for now.

Steve

 

[stecy]

My goal is to not have this problem happen again unless ten years have gone by give or take -- which seems like a more reasonable wear and tear period (?)..

Jeff

That is awfully liberal of you. My mother-in-law has the predecessor model (pre-epa) that after 25 years looks & functions as well as when it was new. We are paying good money for these "improved" stoves, I don't see why we shouldn't get long service from them.

Steve

 

[jeffee]

Steve,
I really appreciate you taking the time to share this. I do hope Corie chimes in! Although I'm quite sure he is busy designing cool stuff for Englander.

I do agree that taking off the top to reset the tubes seems like quite an undertaking -- and Corie did tell me that it isn't easy. However, the stove is still working quite well. I'm just not sure if running it in this condition could have ramifications as far as creosote, or any stove parts wearing prematurely, or anything else (?). I'm not sure if I'm imagining it or not, but it seems like my stove glass is getting a bit dirtier than it was. I really love the way the stove performs.

Thanks!

-Jeff

 

[stecy]

Jeff

Even if removing the top allows resetting the tubes, it is certainly no real answer to why the tubes are prone to becoming misaligned/disconnected in the first place, and offers no guarantee that this will not recur.

To summarize my theory, the top baffle is the lock that holds the tubes in alignment. If the baffle has more movement than the small amount necessary for thermal expansion, the crosswise tube in particular gains freedom to lose position. There are strong upward forces applied to the baffle, due to its downward slope toward the rear, creating a long tapering firebox that inevitably causes a jam when loading for overnight. Stainless steel clips of mysterious design are intended to retain the baffle at the front, but they apparently do not do their job for long, setting the stage for this chain of events.

Therefore, my belief is that the clips must be redesigned and new & improved ones supplied to all Black Bear owners, lest this problem arise repeatedly.

Perhaps you could PM Corie and draw him into this discussion, as he has had communication with the Jotul designer, and could take this theory to him directly. As near as I can tell, dealers & the importer are clueless.

Steve

 

[jeffee]

Ok so here's an update, for any who are interested.

The dealer's service person came over a couple of days ago, armed with a new baffle and center (short) burn tube, in case I needed replacement of either.

He told me the baffle looked great -- with the exception of a hairline crack in the very front; He basically said that it was normal to get this type of crack in that location, and that it would probably take a long time before it would have gotten to the thick part of the baffle. The center tube was straight as an arrow when he did the 'pool cue' test.

Here's the interesting part: The new baffle had, what we presumed, an upgrade. There is a second 'nub' in it, on the right side, about half way between the center nub and the corner of the baffle. The older baffle had only the nub in the middle, that fit into the center tube. So now, the center tube cannot swivel out of position. The baffle does look a bit different in the area where the mysterious clips fit around it too.

So, he changed out the baffle, through the front door, without taking the top off of the stove. He had to jostle and knock and force a bit, but it seemed relatively easy (for him) and took maybe 10 minutes to change out. He drilled the second hole in the center tube, and voila -- everything fits where it should, and seems quite solid now. I am very pleased. Needless to say I am very happy with the service that I received, and pleased that Jotul has addressed this issue. As I said previously, I am very happy with the stove.

Again I want to thank everyone who has helped me with this, especially Steve, for taking the time to share experiences and information, and advice / suggestions.

 

[stecy]

Jeff

Interesting that the baffle has been modified to retain the center tube better, but from your description it doesn't sound like anything has been done to address the tendency of the baffle clips to loosen & allow the baffle to rise at the front. Because the firebox tapers toward the rear, it seems inevitable that any user will have the experience of that last log for the overnight burn getting jammed part-way in. Since it is probably flaming at this time, withdrawing it is not really workable, so forcing it in is the only viable option. This force presses upward on the baffle, and so tends to separate the air tubes.

Have you never had this problem? Hard to see how you could have avoided it.

Steve

 

[stecy]

As I said previously, I am very happy with the stove.

Jeff

Aside from the air tube problem that you have focused on, have you not had the excessive coaling problem? Other posters on this forum have reported this, and it has annoyed me greatly. Basically, the stove creates such a large quantity of coals that they take up too much room in the firebox, and before long have to be burnt down before reloading. However, the coals alone don't put out that much heat, even with the draft wide open, so the stove cools down until there is space for another load of wood. On the other hand, if wood is loaded on top of too many coals, the fire tends to run away, such that closing down both the primary & secondary air is not enough to bring it under control.

I would like to believe this is due to something unique to my installation, but there are posts here describing this same behavior, & my local friend has the same issue.

So, it is interesting to see that you are "very happy" with the stove. Truly, you don't have this coaling problem? How much area are you heating? You must have a small, very well insulated home.

Steve