Honeywell Air Separator?

[Clarkbug]

Hey all.

Im needing to add an air separator into my system for one of my loops. When I run on just oil there is nothing there for air elimination, and there were issues with air in the pipes last year.

Rather than spend the time to chase the air, I'm looking to just get it piped right. I have a spirovent for my wood to tank loop, but they are the most expensive behind the Caleffi stuff it seems.

I see Honeywell makes one called the Supervent that is similar looking, but didn't know if it performs the same.

Anyone have first hand experience? I'm not opposed to spending the $ if there is a benefit, but if I can save some, I certainly would like to....

 

[Bad LP]

Watts is all I have ever used or paid to be used.

 

[velvetfoot]

The Spirovent only seems to be $37 more for the 1.25".
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spirotherm-Air-Eliminators-311000

 

[Floydian]

Hey Clarkbug,

Been a while!

I have a Honeywell supervent and have had no issues at all. Of course it only really had anything to do when I did the initial fill and air purge. Haven't heard a peep out of it since.

Noah

 

[leon]

Hey all.

Im needing to add an air separator into my system for one of my loops. When I run on just oil there is nothing there for air elimination, and there were issues with air in the pipes last year.

Rather than spend the time to chase the air, I'm looking to just get it piped right. I have a spirovent for my wood to tank loop, but they are the most expensive behind the Caleffi stuff it seems.

I see Honeywell makes one called the Supervent that is similar looking, but didn't know if it performs the same.

Anyone have first hand experience? I'm not opposed to spending the $ if there is a benefit, but if I can save some, I certainly would like to....

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There are a couple of things I have to ask you.
Are the boilers piped in series or parallel???

How many pumps?

Do you have a shut off valve on each loop???

If you shut the valve off in X loop you can drive all the air out of the Y
loop and back to the boiler where the stand pipe with the boiler drain valve on the top of
the stand pipe will bleed off all the air for you quickly and then boom its done and you need to
repeat the process with the "X" loop, I am assuming they are sealed systems??

Are you using a bypass loop to divert a set amount of heated water back to the boiler(s)
to make the boiler work less????


Are the pumps pumping into the boiler base or pumping away from the top of the boiler??

DO YOU have a standpipe at the top boiler tapping to of either boiler to bleed air out of the boilers??
If not you need to add them

The quick fix is to install a standpipe with a boiler drain valve in the top boiler tappings of both boilers
that will make the air bubbles rise out of the water to the top of the standpipe where you can bleed it off.


What ever you do, install shut off valves in both loops to seal them from the system and you can purge the air without needing to bleed a radiator using a standpipe in the steam jacket of the boiler(the top) as the air will be driven back to the boiler

 

[Clarkbug]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Was trying to lump all of the replies into a single thread, but dont see the multi-quote option. Maybe thats other forum software?

Anyway, BadLP, thanks for the insight. Im familiar with Watts, and they make good stuff. But I see they top out at 1 1-4", and the piping I have leaving my boiler is 1 1/2", so I would rather just stay line size if I can.

Velvet, I know its only $37, but thats money to put towards other projects, especially since Im hoping this thing only does its job for the first few days/weeks I fire the system up.

Noah, it has been a while! When its not time to heat the house there are always other things to do, plus I now have a little guy running around keeping me busy, so my forum interactions are pretty curtailed.

Leon, thanks for the insightful questions here. My near-boiler piping isnt ideal, and that was a cost-based decision to tie my new wood boiler system into the existing oil boiler. For purposes of this discussion, Im only dealing with my oil loop, which has two zones, pumps on the return side of the boiler, pumping towards the expansion tank. So yes, not correct/ideal. But it was piped by an old timer that used the old rules of thumb, and it was to replace what had been an old monster of a boiler. Rule of thumb was to install pumps on the return side so they would see lower temps and not bake the seals. It also had the old-style expansion tank in the rafters that you would drain down or use an airtrol fitting. That tank is currently valved off, and there is a diaphragm-style tank piped off of a tapping on the boiler itself.

I had issues last year with air in the system, and I have finally found the problem, which was the auto-vents installed on my tanks inside an insulated enclosure. They were weeping around the top seal, and I was having to makeup, so adding more air into the system that the spirovent on my wood loop couldnt always get to. So Im in the process of re-piping those vents, trying to decide on adding a manual coin vent on piping outside the enclosure, or just putting a pipe plug in and calling it a day.

Since I have some other piping changes to make, I was thinking best to add an air eliminator because its good practice to have one after the boiler.

 

[leon]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Was trying to lump all of the replies into a single thread, but dont see the multi-quote option. Maybe thats other forum software?

Anyway, BadLP, thanks for the insight. Im familiar with Watts, and they make good stuff. But I see they top out at 1 1-4", and the piping I have leaving my boiler is 1 1/2", so I would rather just stay line size if I can.

Velvet, I know its only $37, but thats money to put towards other projects, especially since Im hoping this thing only does its job for the first few days/weeks I fire the system up.

Noah, it has been a while! When its not time to heat the house there are always other things to do, plus I now have a little guy running around keeping me busy, so my forum interactions are pretty curtailed.

Leon, thanks for the insightful questions here. My near-boiler piping isnt ideal, and that was a cost-based decision to tie my new wood boiler system into the existing oil boiler. For purposes of this discussion, Im only dealing with my oil loop, which has two zones, pumps on the return side of the boiler, pumping towards the expansion tank. So yes, not correct/ideal. But it was piped by an old timer that used the old rules of thumb, and it was to replace what had been an old monster of a boiler. Rule of thumb was to install pumps on the return side so they would see lower temps and not bake the seals. It also had the old-style expansion tank in the rafters that you would drain down or use an airtrol fitting. That tank is currently valved off, and there is a diaphragm-style tank piped off of a tapping on the boiler itself.
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Hello Clarkbug,

you can still use the steel tank with your wood boiler and oil boiler both as long as you eliminate all the autovents.

The autovents stole all the air out of the steel tank causing you to add water back to the system.

You can leave the bladder tank in place and still use the steel expansion tank as long as the autovents are removed.

The new pumps can be installed above the steam chests now to push the water away from the boiler(pumping away)
as they have high temp seals and do not fail from heat and this is best for ridding your system of water.

If you have a boiler tapping on the steam chest that is unused you can add a 2 foot pipe nipple and a boiler drain to aid in removing all your air and then you can open the valve to the steel expansion tank and then open the air vent in the airtrol fitting and when the water starts squirting out your tank has the right amount of air and water- 1/3 air and 2/3 water and then you have no issues.

I would bet you had problems the minute you started to heat with the new boiler and the automatic air vents!! eliminate these air vents, purge the air in the system fill the steel tank andd then drain the excess air out of the steel tank and you will no longer have issues.

Is your woof boiler pressurised?? If not you may need a heat exchanger so you can eliminate the automatic air vents.



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I had issues last year with air in the system, and I have finally found the problem, which was the auto-vents installed on my tanks inside an insulated enclosure. They were weeping around the top seal, and I was having to makeup, so adding more air into the system that the spirovent on my wood loop couldnt always get to. So Im in the process of re-piping those vents, trying to decide on adding a manual coin vent on piping outside the enclosure, or just putting a pipe plug in and calling it a day.

Since I have some other piping changes to make, I was thinking best to add an air eliminator because its good practice to have one after the boiler.

 

[Clarkbug]

Thanks for the additional insight Leon.

No need for the steel tank, since the airtrol is gone, and I have lots of other expansion tanks to utilize. (sorry if I wasnt clear before, there used to be an airtrol, there isnt any longer.

I know the pumps can be moved, but not looking to add that expense right now to something thats still functional. I could do it myself at some point, but now is not the time for me to start a project that removes my primary heat from service.... I wont get it done in time. So they will have to stay on the return side pumping to the small expansion tank for now, even if its not ideal.

The autovents did their thing to start, but they are actually leaking, which is why I had to make up water. I pressurized the system this week, and there was a trail of water coming out of them. So while I know I had some makeup to do when I first started the system and purged the air, now its just making up water that leaked out.

The wood boiler is pressurized, and is tied into the same system.

 

[velvetfoot]

Hey, CB, not to hijack your thread, but I could be in a somewhat similar situation. I got rid of the original air scoop and expansion tank that came with the oil boiler. The Spirovent at its location does a good job, but I wonder if I added another if it would work better/faster. I thinking of adding one at "A" in the (crude) diagram below. What do you think?

 

[Clarkbug]

Air separators work best when placed close to the heat source, as well as the point of no pressure change/low pressure (helps the air come out of solution that way). So like me, you have pumps on the inlet side of the boiler, which isnt ideal for air removal. Ideally, you would have your boiler, then Spirovent, then the pump. The expansion would connect to the bottom of the vent, and you would be set. This would provide the lowest pressure and highest temp, so the best for getting rid of dissolved gasses.

But it is what it is, at least for my system for a while.

Do you ever run either of your boilers just to charge the energy tank, but without your zones running? If you do, and that run of piping isnt causing a big temp drop, your existing spirovent is probably doing a pretty good job. Putting one in location A would help catch any air that has come out of suspension and is free in the pipe before it goes into your zones, but those are big bubbles.

So I guess I would say that it shouldnt hurt, but I dont know how much benefit you will actually see. Im looking to do it for my system since the bulk of my flow may not go through my existing vent, and any trapped air (even big bubbles) doesnt have an easy way out.

 

[velvetfoot]

Thanks. Yes, it does go into the tank plenty with no zones running. I don't want to be looking for unnecessary work either. I have to say I was thoroughly unimpressed with the original cast iron air scoop.

 

[Clarkbug]

Yeah, air scoops only work for free air, and there has to be a straight run of pipe with no fittings and laminar flow. The spriovents work much better to capture micro bubbles that whiz right through the scoops.

 

[leon]

Both of you need to add about an once of dawn to your boiler water to get rid
of your air bubbles.The Dawn Dish soap acts as a surfactant to break the
surface tension on the air bubbles and breaks them into smaller bubbles which gets rid
of them faster.

Clark Bug you should just put a ball valve under you autovents to shut them
off if you need change them like I did.

You can buy 6 B+G $10 autovents for every spirovent you buy.

Remove the bad autovents pour an ounce of dawn in the water(preferably in the
boiler or a pump flange plug) put the new vents in with ball valves and then start
each zone and the bubbles should be gone quickly.

 

[velvetfoot]

Interesting.

 

[maple1]

I'm picturing a little wad of soapsuds around my pump impeller...

 

[velvetfoot]

Only if air is there, lol

 

[leon]

Hey, CB, not to hijack your thread, but I could be in a somewhat similar situation. I got rid of the original air scoop and expansion tank that came with the oil boiler. The Spirovent at its location does a good job, but I wonder if I added another if it would work better/faster. I thinking of adding one at "A" in the (crude) diagram below. What do you think?
View attachment 162813

if you do not have an bladder expansion tank you need a fifteen gallon steel expansion tank and airtrol as it has no moving parts and eliminates need for an airscoop for your heating system if two boilers are being used. you cannot use a spirovent or less costly automatic
air bleeder with a steel expansion tank and airtrol system as the automatic vents will suck the air out of the steel expasion tank and cause problems with air as the air cushion in the steel expansion tank is gone.

The other thing is that by removing the bladder tank you have an i
ssue with your circulator(s) as your newer boiler most likely has an
internal baffle to separate air bubbles and should have a vent on
the top of the boiler.

A long stand pipe on the tapping closest to the return side with a boiler drain
sitting on top of it should help with that if the boiler has the internal baffle.
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if you have two expansion tanks and "one is not valved off" its confusing the circulator
as to the point of no pressure change so you have much more water and air wandering around
there causing problems you need to remove that bladder tank or valve it off.

Dawn will help but you still have no point of pressure change.

 

[velvetfoot]

I'm sorry, I didn't explain myself. I took the smaller expansion tank out with the scoop and put in a big one with a bladder and a Spirovent in a different location. I was just thinking, like Clarkbug, that maybe another Spirovent in the original location would help.

 

[leon]

I'm sorry, I didn't explain myself. I took the smaller expansion tank out with the scoop and put in a big one with a bladder and a Spirovent in a different location. I was just thinking, like Clarkbug, that maybe another Spirovent in the original location would help.

No need to apologise, save your money. this will cost you less money than a new spirovent:


Buy the following

1. 1 ten dollar B+G automatic vent
2. 1 2 inch pipe nipple
3. 1 1/2 inch to 1/8 inch reducing bushing for vent
4. 1 1/8 inch ball valve to valve off vent and 1/8 inch tee
3. 1 1/8 by 2 inch pipe nipple
4. 1 1/8 inch elbow
5. 1 1/8 inch pipe plug

After all that you can pour in an ounce of dawn dish soap in the airscoop and then pump it through the system to
break up the air bubbles.


Do the same for the spirovent you have now as you need to be able to valve it off to change and avoid draining
the system to do it with:

1. pipe nipple
2. pipe coupler
3, pipe nipple
4. ball valve

(provided of course its not a sweat fitting)

Better to do it now with the mild weather.



"one pipe steam is so much easier"

" gravity hot water heat is second to one pipe steam"

" one pipe diverter tee radiator systems are tied in first place with the gravity hot water systems in ease of use and installation"