Hi to all, I've been cruising this site for a long time and finally registered. It has been a great help in my own purchases, as well as giving sound advice to others. So here is the deal, Ive been heating with my quad now for going on three years. I only heat my home with wood and I have recently installed some hydronic tubing (pex) in my bathroom floors and want to heat the hot water it with my quadrafire stove. I have a 50 gallon storage tank situated close to the stove which will act as hot water storage. What I was thinking was putting a heat coil above the fire blanket. Hilkoil makes a stainless steel one that is sold on ebay. Kind of pricey though, i think. Anyways It seems out of the way, and shouldn't interfere really with anything or effect the draft. I would have to drill 2 holes in the back of the stove. My other idea was to build a small tank inside the step top portion of the stove which is hollow. Thoughts guys? Thanks
Hot water coil in Quadrafire 5700???
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My own thoughts . . . I would not want to drill any holes in my woodstove when it is doing a fantastic job the way it is heating the house . . . moreover I would be a bit concerned with trying to build a Mickey Mouse hydronic heating system which could potentially get too hot or convert to steam . . . then again I am not much of a risk taker.
Yes - welcome!
Agree with FFJake... however... has anyone ever thought about a self-supported external type of water filled coil, possibly placed off the rear of a stove? (Just thinking outside the box, literally.) Pressure relief valves, etc. are beyond my experience...
Agree with FFJake... however... has anyone ever thought about a self-supported external type of water filled coil, possibly placed off the rear of a stove? (Just thinking outside the box, literally.) Pressure relief valves, etc. are beyond my experience...
Thanks for your input Jake. Cost is my main reason for this project. I am a third year engineering student doing a major remodel of my home so money is tight. The upstairs is gutted without insulation, but that's where the bathroom is and the wife doesn't appreciate air in the 40's, and I cant say it's pleasant either. So I am going to insulate the bathroom and heat it with the hot water. I do not want to build a "mickey mouse" hydronic heating system either which is why the hot water storage, recirculation pump, and pressure relief valves.l Also I will be working on this project with a certified master plumber. Though, I don't like the idea of drilling holes in the quad, I don't feel that it could harm the performance or the integrity of the wood stove. Of course I could always weld it up the holes too if it didn't work out. I should note that the wood stove in in the basement.
Thanks for welcoming me. I have thought about the external coils, and have a friend who did that on an older cylindrical wood stove. He just wrapped soft copper tubing around it and used it to heat his domestic hot water. My external idea, as I mentioned was to build a tank inside the step top portion of the stove, which is hollow. No holes to drill, but I don't think that it would extract the heat that a coil inside the stove would. Please keep the responses coming! I realize this is somewhat of an unorthodox way of heating water and appreciate opinions!
Probably will not convince you . . . but a simple oil-filled electric radiator provides a nice amount of heat . . . and is cheap to buy . . . and should not be overly expensive if run while someone is showering . . . just don't attempt to haul the radiator into the shower.
Yea, I have two of those oil heaters. I have already installed the tubing in the concrete and would like to utilize it. I would rather not monkey around with extension cords etc. I thought about this for a while and have used the oil heaters in the past and would like a more permanent solution.
Welcome to the forum! Have you ever watched mythbusters? They did a great episode on steam and the effects that it can have. They were able to shoot a water heater up through 2 floors and out the roof. That in mind i wouldnt use a water jackets system on my stove...... just my 2 cents though.
Run pipe to (and from) your HW heater to the pipe in your floor. A small pump, and perhaps a mixing valve will be all you will need. Cheap and effective!
Shari said:
Yes I have thought about about, and have done it.
See my post #8
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/44029/
It will get the water in the tanks up to about 140 °F .
I am currently working on some up grades.
I admire that kind if individual ingenuity. The obvious danger is that hot water can quickly turn to steam if things go wrong. That's why we got a boiler forum for those outdoor heating plants. Now when they go boom 100' from the house it doesn't become a front page story.
It would be sweet if something commercial was developed so we could quickly hook up a hot water radiator to warn the nether regions of our house with the wood stove.
It would be sweet if something commercial was developed so we could quickly hook up a hot water radiator to warn the nether regions of our house with the wood stove.
savageactor7 said:
Agreed on all counts. Not only the boom (since high pressure would be required to keep the water from boiling at firebox temps), but ruining the integrity of the firebox, and also lowering the high temps required inside the firebox necessary for clean burn, secondaries, etc. I imagine a stoves burn system is highly tuned, and even so, hard to manage sometimes. Pumping cooler water through there could cause all sorts of unintended consequences.
In terms of a commercial solution, I've been fantasizing about some sort of soapstone/radiator unit that could be attached to the side, function as a hearth or wall shield, or just rest on the top of the stove. It could pump heat to HW systems and/or remote areas and smooth temperature swings near the stove.
That would give extra advantages without messing with the stove's integrity and burn system.
By extracting heat out of the flue gasses and firebox you will cool the exhaust going out. This will lead to more creosote formation, and possibly effect the burn of the stove.
Also, the exhaust flows above the blanket and out the pipe on the top. I have seen clumps of creosote up there affect the burn such that smoke comes back into the room.
Also, the exhaust flows above the blanket and out the pipe on the top. I have seen clumps of creosote up there affect the burn such that smoke comes back into the room.
jtp10181 said:
Creosote is formed from incomplete combustion. I don't believe much combustion is going on above the fire blanket. The hottest part of the stove in under the blanket and fireboard thus, the secondary burn tubes?? no? I don't think that 5 or 6 coils of 3/4" IPS pipe is enough to cool the exhaust temps as to weaken the draw of the chimney much either. But that is just a untested thoery
RenovationGeorge said:
I agree that the hot water coil could indeed lower the temps inside the firebox and cause a less efficient burn, but the idea never was to put the coil inside the firebox, but above the fire blanket and fireboard.
WES999 said:
Good to see a litte creativity! So I was wondering why you didn't just build a water tank instead of the Al plate with Cu tubing? I would think it would conduct the heat better?//
JRAIDER said:
Ah, my mistake, sorry. A coil in the exhaust gas has to, to the degree it is effective, cool flue temps and reduce draw. This is the same effect as the non-controversial and universally beloved Magic Heat, with the same limitations. The stoves most compatible with this sort of modification would be those losing the most heat up their chimney--those with excessive draw and high flue temperatures. So there are some challenges and compatibility issues there. For example, I don't think you'd want to use it on a cat stove with low flue temps and lazy exhaust flow.
I'm thinking it might be a fun DIY thing, and could work well in a custom, one-off situation. If it were a commercial product, I'd want an external solution that I could place on, or below a stove, replace a side shield with--
...
...Now there's an idea. How about attaching your copper tubing to a plate, that could replace a stove's side or rear shield, or be sandwiched to same? It probably wouldn't load down the stove any more than a fan, and let it perform within its design parameters. Call it the platerador (TM), or shielderador (TM), chuckle. Has that been done? I'd be surprised if it hasn't. Or maybe all records were lost in the blast. I know they would be if I tried it.
Works for me. Hilkoil makes a nice unit. Don't think it's really overpriced, as a fabricator. Lifetime garantee and all.
You must have: 1. Circulator on aquastat (circ must run full time, called by aquastat NOT BY THERMOSTAT). The plumber may have a little trouble with this concept.
2. Expansion tank sized properly.
3. Waterfill with check valve.
4. Pressure/temp relief valve designed for wood fire use.
5.Checkvalve in loop between stove and tank
6. Dump zone for excess heat. A small modine or a kick space heater (ask your plumber) works for this. This unit must also be run by an aquastat. (thats two aquastats total)
7. Air vent at highest point in system.
8. Dump vavle at lowest point, in case of power loss. If you lose electricity, and you want to continue heating with your stove, you open the lower dump valve, then open your air vent, drain stove, and keep burning. Be sure to pipe the pressure/temp relief valve properly, in case you are not home and the power goes out.
9. Mixing valve between tank and radiant floor, to set floor temp.
10. No thermostat in bathroom, unless you want an even more complicated system, with more parts, such as a heat exchanger, another expansion tank, air seperater, cirlulater,pressure releif etc. If the bathroom gets too hot, open window, shut down air to stove, etc.
If you are going to go this far, search sidearm in the boiler room, and get your domestic hot water out of the system too.
A good amount of parts to buy, a lot of work to install, good return on investment, though. Remember, you are not recovering free heat. You will have to burn more wood, with more air.
If you have an existing forced hot water centrall heating system, you can connect it in parralel to the hilkiol and share a few components. If this is the case, be sure to install full ballvalve isolation.
Maybe a moderater will move this to the boiler room for you.
You must have: 1. Circulator on aquastat (circ must run full time, called by aquastat NOT BY THERMOSTAT). The plumber may have a little trouble with this concept.
2. Expansion tank sized properly.
3. Waterfill with check valve.
4. Pressure/temp relief valve designed for wood fire use.
5.Checkvalve in loop between stove and tank
6. Dump zone for excess heat. A small modine or a kick space heater (ask your plumber) works for this. This unit must also be run by an aquastat. (thats two aquastats total)
7. Air vent at highest point in system.
8. Dump vavle at lowest point, in case of power loss. If you lose electricity, and you want to continue heating with your stove, you open the lower dump valve, then open your air vent, drain stove, and keep burning. Be sure to pipe the pressure/temp relief valve properly, in case you are not home and the power goes out.
9. Mixing valve between tank and radiant floor, to set floor temp.
10. No thermostat in bathroom, unless you want an even more complicated system, with more parts, such as a heat exchanger, another expansion tank, air seperater, cirlulater,pressure releif etc. If the bathroom gets too hot, open window, shut down air to stove, etc.
If you are going to go this far, search sidearm in the boiler room, and get your domestic hot water out of the system too.
A good amount of parts to buy, a lot of work to install, good return on investment, though. Remember, you are not recovering free heat. You will have to burn more wood, with more air.
If you have an existing forced hot water centrall heating system, you can connect it in parralel to the hilkiol and share a few components. If this is the case, be sure to install full ballvalve isolation.
Maybe a moderater will move this to the boiler room for you.
JRAIDER said:
DANGER!
Building a tank is a real bad idea. Forget that all together, unless you are going to have an engineer design the tank, certified welders build the tank and a certified testing facility hydrotest the tank.
JRAIDER said:jtp10181 said:
Creosote is formed from incomplete combustion. I don't believe much combustion is going on above the fire blanket. The hottest part of the stove in under the blanket and fireboard thus, the secondary burn tubes?? no? I don't think that 5 or 6 coils of 3/4" IPS pipe is enough to cool the exhaust temps as to weaken the draw of the chimney much either. But that is just a untested thoery
There is always some creo in the exhaust, but evaporated. If you cool the flue gasses down more will condense and stick to the chimney.
To all, as far as the water coil causing creosote because it cools the fire...I dunno about that. Once the fluid, water or antifreeze reaches the proper temp I can't see how it would contribute to creosote. Now the biggest worry is keeping the beast fed.
Rather that cut any holes in the stove I would remove the stoves outer jacket and lay in some copper water pipe serpentine fashion, refrigerator coil like, then cover that with the jacket. Then pretty much do what Dune has suggested.
Let me say up front that I'm no expert. imo this hasn't already been done commercially because of liability issues more than technological reasons. We burn hot all the time and I'm of the opinion that good heat is being wasted.
One of these days someone's going to come up with a safe do it yourself solution that will hopefully earn them some cash and immortality.
Rather that cut any holes in the stove I would remove the stoves outer jacket and lay in some copper water pipe serpentine fashion, refrigerator coil like, then cover that with the jacket. Then pretty much do what Dune has suggested.
Let me say up front that I'm no expert. imo this hasn't already been done commercially because of liability issues more than technological reasons. We burn hot all the time and I'm of the opinion that good heat is being wasted.
One of these days someone's going to come up with a safe do it yourself solution that will hopefully earn them some cash and immortality.
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