How do people deal with ethanol in the saws gas tank?

[tbrickner]

Hi folks:

Wanted to find out what the experts recommend on dealing with the Ethanol issue in the saw gas tanks. I live in the communist state of Maryland which forces pump owners to supply 10% ethanol in their gas so we can destroy any lawn equipment we have here.

I have heard the following recommendations.

1. Test the gas stations in your gas area to find out which one has the lowest Ethanol content.
2. Use a minimum of 89 octane fuel.
3. Use a lube oil with fuel stabelizer with a 40:1 ratio mix.

Any other recommendations.

 

[drdoct]

I think the 10% was mandated by the Federal Govt everywhere. Maybe it's not in effect now... but I think it is because the states the furthest away from the corn are the ones with the highest gas.

 

[coolidge]

Whie getting my saw tuned at the local saw shop, i asked the owner the same question. He tells me to look for a product named K-100 to stabilize the fuel. It has been tested in Florida, which has 85% ethanol, with excellent results. Also i was told not to shake your gas can vigourously, you need to roll it so the ethalnol will mix with the gas if it has seperated. Last DO NOt use drygas in anything that has the Ethanol blend in it, it adds more alcahol to the system.

 

[tbrickner]

Thanks for the replys.

I'll ask around here about the K-100 fuel stabilizer that sound promising. Thanks also for the tip about not shaking the can. I am going to one of the Dolmar saw dealers today to find out what there take is. I'll let you know if I hear anything in addition to what was said here.

By the way how do you folks feel about the 40:1 ratio? Does this make sense?

 

[tbrickner]

I went to the dealer today and got some good advice on the ethanol issue. He recommended any oil mix that had a JASO (FC) or bettur fuel rating. Apparently this is a standard they use to test how much contamination the oil creates. He said if your oil mix doesn't have this don't use it. He also said to use the highest rated octane fuel 90+. As far as fuel stabelizers for winter storage or to stabelize fuel he recommended PRI-G and highly recommended a product called START. This guy does a lot of lawnmower repair and he said the START has brought back a few bad running engines. Apparently the START stabelizer somehow surrounds the gas to keep it from oxidizing. I am not a chemist but this guy highly recommending it and has torn apart a few engines in his lifetime. I hope this helps someone.

 

[kevin j]

check around boating or collector car areas. Since there a lot of big motor boats around here, some gas stations here have a pump that sells ethanol free 'for off road boat and collector use only'. I use that in all my small engines.

 

[Gooserider]

1. I use major brand name pump gas, of the highest octane available - I've heard from some sources that it tends to have less alcohol...

2. I use mix oil AT THE RECCOMENDED 50:1 RATIO! I do choose mix oil that has fuel stabilizer mixed in with it, and that is rated for chainsaws - what I've been using is the little "one shot" bottles for a gallon of gas, from a major saw maker brand. When I run out of my current supply, I will probably go for synthetic one-shots... It's a more expensive way to get oil, but I don't go through that much mix, so IMHO it's worth the money to avoid the hassle of measuring, w/ accompanying risks of contamination, errors, etc.

3. I try not to keep my mix for to long, after 3-4 months it gets dumped into the car, snowblower, lawn tractor, etc. and a fresh batch made.

4. I slosh it around before putting it in the saw.

5. I try to always run the saw out of gas before putting it away, definitely before storing it for any length of time.

Gooserider

 

[tbrickner]

Does anyone feel that it is detramental to the saw to fill it with a lower ratio 40:1 for a 50:1 rated saw. I would think that you may loose some power but at least you keep the lubrication up with the engine while not running it as hot. I am using some Husqvarna XP. Does anyone have good experience with this or any other type of two cycle oil.

 

[Gooserider]

Does anyone feel that it is detramental to the saw to fill it with a lower ratio 40:1 for a 50:1 rated saw. I would think that you may loose some power but at least you keep the lubrication up with the engine while not running it as hot. I am using some Husqvarna XP. Does anyone have good experience with this or any other type of two cycle oil.

If you really want to get into mud, or rather, oil slinging wars, %-P go over to arboristsite and ask that question... There are strongly held opinions on all sides of the issue dino vs. synth, ratios, etc... It's worse than religion! I tend to be of the run the manufacturer's reccomended ratio, or close to it school, with a preference for high end dino or synth, again insisting on the right ISO / SAE ratings... I don't see a big advantage to running richer mixes, and think the arguments about increased carbon deposits causing possible harm have some merit. However I'd rather err on the rich side than the thin side, I use the one shot bottles, and usually mix with about 0.95 to 0.98 gallons as I don't want to go over...

More important I think is to be consistent - Tune your saw properly to run on whatever mix you plan to use, and don't change the ratio, or if you do, re-tune...

Bear in mind that your carb is a volumetric device, it meters a given amount of MIX into each unit of air that gets sucked through it at a given throttle setting - if you change the ratio of the mix, you are effectively changing the amount of gas in each unit of fuel/air mix going into the engine, making it richer or leaner, and therefore you need to either be very consistent in your ratios, or retune with each change to compensate.

Gooserider

 

[tbrickner]

Thanks gooserider:

I'll stick like you said with the 50:1 ratio the manufacturer recommends. I think the higher octane and better cycle oil will give me more consistant results. The proof will be in checking the saw at tuneup time.

Thanks again for all the great advice.

Tom

 

[Der Fuirmeister]

Use good oil, burn rich at 45:1 or use premium which doesn't contain ethanol.......

 

[firefighterjake]

1. I use major brand name pump gas, of the highest octane available - I've heard from some sources that it tends to have less alcohol...

2. I use mix oil AT THE RECCOMENDED 50:1 RATIO! I do choose mix oil that has fuel stabilizer mixed in with it, and that is rated for chainsaws - what I've been using is the little "one shot" bottles for a gallon of gas, from a major saw maker brand. When I run out of my current supply, I will probably go for synthetic one-shots... It's a more expensive way to get oil, but I don't go through that much mix, so IMHO it's worth the money to avoid the hassle of measuring, w/ accompanying risks of contamination, errors, etc.

3. I try not to keep my mix for to long, after 3-4 months it gets dumped into the car, snowblower, lawn tractor, etc. and a fresh batch made.

4. I slosh it around before putting it in the saw.

5. I try to always run the saw out of gas before putting it away, definitely before storing it for any length of time.

Gooserider

Since E-10 has made its debut here in Maine and many folks have gone into Chicken Little Mode (i.e. the Sky is falling . . . I mean the Engines will blow up, the engines will blow up) I have noticed that . . .

a) it seems as though the biggest hype and concern was with snowmobiles blowing up . . . and while everyone has a "I heard there is a dealer up North with 200 sleds that have blown up" stories along with the "My best friend's cousin works at a dealer and he says you have to buy Miracle Mystery Fluid A or your chainsaw, sled, ATV, etc. will blow up" story . . . and yet my local sled shop/chainsaw/small engine dealer has had no issues with E-10 and a fairly large dealership up north has had no more than the typical issues (usual . . . with folks who haven't maintained their equipment over the summer months and have just started the sleds/equipment right up)

b) there seems to be an awful lot of folks making an awful lot of money selling the "got to have it" gas fixes ranging from K-10, Starbrite, Stabil, etc. . . . and yet I wonder if this E-10 was so bad you would think the manufacturers would be putting out some type of technical bulletin suggesting that folks use a certain product . . . or risk a whole lot of unhappy customers with blown up chainsaws, sleds, ATVs, etc.

After doing a whole bunch of reading I went to my local dealer and asked what they were being told . . . and his answer was . . .

a) it is better to run the super unleaded gas when possible
b) avoid storing the gas in tanks/cans for a long period of time
c) while not necessary, you can add a fuel supplement

After all this I am pretty much doing what Goose is doing with my small engines . . . running super and not storing the fuel for long periods of time (a bit inconvenient since I am no longer keeping a tank or two of gas on hand).

One thing I also read was to be aware that the ethanol can work as a cleaning agent . . . meaning that gunk in gas station tanks/your tank/can can be dislodged and can gum up filters, plugs, etc. . . . something to be aware of I suppose.

 

[Der Fuirmeister]

The problem with ethanol in gas isn't all hype. Years ago, when they started adding ethanol to auto gas, there were many problems in aircraft engines. Some engines were allowed to use auto gas. Aircraft engines typically perform at much higher output than cars, meaning they run continuously at 75% of max rated horsepower. The aircraft industry is tightly regulated. Any maintenance must be documented / recorded etc. Engine manufacturers and the FAA sent out notices regarding the use of the mixed fuel. The problems mainly revolved around the O-rings, seals, carb floats and fuel lines. They would dissolve. Since then the type of rubber used on those parts has changed.

I never heard of engines running hot or burning up, but there were limitations placed on the percentage of ethanol used in the gas. Anyone interested can review the publications referenced through the EAA

 

[firefighterjake]

The problem with ethanol in gas isn't all hype. Years ago, when they started adding ethanol to auto gas, there were many problems in aircraft engines. Some engines were allowed to use auto gas. Aircraft engines typically perform at much higher output than cars, meaning they run continuously at 75% of max rated horsepower. The aircraft industry is tightly regulated. Any maintenance must be documented / recorded etc. Engine manufacturers and the FAA sent out notices regarding the use of the mixed fuel. The problems mainly revolved around the O-rings, seals, carb floats and fuel lines. They would dissolve. Since then the type of rubber used on those parts has changed.

I never heard of engines running hot or burning up, but there were limitations placed on the percentage of ethanol used in the gas. Anyone interested can review the publications referenced through the EAA

True enough . . . I should have stated that as well so to say that the ethanol issue is all hype is misleading (when in fact there is the continued issue with the cleansing action of the ethanol gunking up things) . . . The one thing I read was that with some of the older engines that rubber seals, fuel lines, etc. did break down in the ethanol, but from my reading it seems that this isn't as big of an issue with newer engines and parts -- something I should have mentioned but quite honestly forgot since I believe most of my equipment is newer.

 

[lobsta1]

Use good oil, burn rich at 45:1 or use premium which doesn't contain ethanol.......

You can't make a blanket statement like that. Around the Northeast (at least in Ma.), all gas is SUPPOSED to have the same percentage of ethanol. Doesn't always happen. Ask the people from Martha's Vineyard whose engines were ruined by up to 45% ethanol that was added to premium gas.
Al

 

[Der Fuirmeister]

Use good oil, burn rich at 45:1 or use premium which doesn't contain ethanol.......

You can't make a blanket statement like that. Around the Northeast (at least in Ma.)...........

Really? Why can't I provide my opinion? Besides, didn't you folks in Boston throw a little tea party awhile back and encourage this kind of thing?

Seriously, my suggestion was to do one of two things.....

1) use good oil and burn rich at 45:1

OR

2) burn premium without ethanol

What MA mandates doesn't dictate what the rest of the states require. Each state decides. See this link to the EPA web site......

(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/otaq/oxygenate.htm)

Contrary to what some believe, Ethanol is not required in the entire US. Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE) is another chemical used. MTBE has it's own problems. If I start talking about that here though Craig or the boys will delete this thread because we'd be getting off the subject of ethanol.

In this country there are many boutique gasolines. That is part of the problem with the hugh difference in the cost of gasoline from state to state.

So....., that is why I made the suggestion to use premium without ethanol. I use premium without ethanol in my old boat (early 70's with the old style rubber gaskets). The only ethanol allowed in my boat is in your glass.....(smiley thing here)

 

[Summertime]

You think lawn equipment hates ethanol, try owning a boat with fiberglass fuel tanks which are eaten up by ethanol or even a metal tank that the ethanol cleans all of the varnish off the insides and clogs fuel filters constantly!

 

[fyrwoodguy]

the reasons for getting rid of ethanol is INCREASING ALL THE TIME !
let's hope it goes away.