How to fight climate change... for reals.

[Ashful]

I'm not sure I agree that the high-population density areas don't feel the consequences of climate change. In fact, it is the coastal parts of the country that are generally most densely populated, and they suffer most from the (rain of) hurricanes.

You missed some of the key words in what I had written, in jumping to your disagreement. Yes, of course everyone in a coastal state is affected by rain, and folks on TV continue to argue whether or not it's actually increasing, or related to climate change.

But the reality is that the degree or level of impact on those in the densely-populated northeast, even mid-Atlantic, is not so nearly severe as those living in areas seeing far more acute effects of drought, wildfires, and other effects much more easily and directly linked to climate change. This could be said about the majority of our population, outside of a few select states or regions. This was being offered as a partial answer to begreen's musing about how we got this ship onto this (perhaps) un-avoidable collision course.

But we agree on the end result. Until people see financial impact, or benefit to change course, we will stay on the present one. Hey, a beached cruise ship is still a cruise ship.

 

[stoveliker]

It is easy to not see the severity of changes when they are far way.
The number and severity of hurricanes are one of THE most directly linked changes due to climate change.

 

[begreen]

Among the many smart things woodgeek said at the top of this thread, the link between personal (or company) finance and climate change will be the driver of any real change. This country has always, and always will, voted with their wallet.

The wallet that is being guarded belongs to primarily one sector of the economy which makes this point somewhat moot. In this case, the environmental and societal costs have been vigorously denied and obscured by extensive and extended disinformation campaigns. Lobbyists have bought power and votes. This is unlike most businesses that work on an extended budget plan that includes worse-case scenarios. The only wallet they are concerned about is their corporate wallets. As long as they are able to sow the seeds of doubt, decline continues.

Deferred maintenance can be very expensive. The cost of these delays and procrastination to nations and humanity will be catastrophic.

 

[begreen]

Case in point. What happens when climate change cuts off the food supply, jobs, and eventually survival? This reality is currently evolving in northern Italy where its most important river, the Po, is drying up this year. This is the area that grows risotto rice, which is the staple of the region. The mighty Po river is flowing at a volume of 1/10th normal. There is little water for agriculture. Because there is so little flow, saltwater now intrudes miles inland. This has destroyed estuary clamming which is another staple of the region. Saltwater intrusion is contaminating most of the wells in the region too. That contamination won't go away, even if next year is wetter. Spain and Portugal are in emergency situations too. The costs are huge.

EU countries restrict drinking water access – DW – 07/07/2022

Severe droughts and scarce rain have forced water restrictions in southern European countries. Climate change is making itself felt across the continent.

www.dw.com

One does not need a crystal ball to see where this is heading. Glacier systems around the world are shrinking. These glaciers supply the headwaters of many major river systems that humanity relies upon. When the water is no longer flowing, all that has been built upon for centuries ceases. It's a sobering thought. The same is happening with Mt. Kilimanjaro which feeds 7 major rivers, most are drying up. Imagine when the mother of all water sources, the Himalayas, dries up.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aav7266

In the US, the impact of shrinking snowpacks and glaciers is also being felt directly in the Southwest as rivers run dry. And saltwater intrusion is becoming a major issue for LA County and also the Sacramento River delta area. Meanwhile, the Rio Grande has run dry. Tick tock...

Big Shock in Big Bend

No one alive has seen the Rio Grande as it looks today. A dry, cracking riverbed now snakes through Big Bend National Park.

www.texasobserver.org

 

[Ashful]

It is easy to not see the severity of changes when they are far way.
The number and severity of hurricanes are one of THE most directly linked changes due to climate change.

You seem to be arguing with me, while simultaneously agreeing.

Case in point: how much did the number and severity of hurricanes affect your budget in Long Island in NY, this year? Here, near Philadelphia, I don't see any direct measurable difference. In fact, our most costly year was a full decade ago, Sandy.

I don't think the folks in California will say the same, and that was the point.

 

[stoveliker]

That does not warrant a response.
You know very well that the randomness and the resulting distribution can't be measured with "this year"

Also, you demonstrate an absence of knowledge, as the hurricane season for this year is only about to ramp up. So the answer is: we'll see in the next few months.

My point is that your dismissal of coastal impact of climate change for the visible (and indeed related and severe) impact of wildfires is incorrect. Hurricanes have been more and more strong the last few years, on average (see distribution, statistics). We've been at the high end of the hurricane numbers for a few years now.

Other than that, yes, my home owners insurance does have a "if hurricane, you have a 20% deductible" rider (that was instated after Sandy). That is something I have actively saved for. In fact, that has been a point this year and last two, given that the home has nearly doubled in market price. Given that the deductible is a percentage, this has indeed actively and significantly affected my finances while saving to fill this gap. This is of course related to changing home prices more than changing climate, but they are related because climate->hurricanes->deductible percentage.

 

[begreen]

On the east coast, Florida will feel the wallet pinch the most, at least in the short term. That said, when one looks at the population density living within 10 miles of the east coast, the cost impact is quite apparent just from sea rise, let alone storm-related costs.

Sea-Level Rise in Miami-Dade Could Cost $3.2 Billion by 2040

Florida residents currently stand to bear the largest cost burden for sea-level rise and climate adaptation. Twenty-three Florida counties face costs of more than $1 billion for seawall expenses, according to the Center for Climate Integrity.

www.miaminewtimes.com

The cost of sea level rise is just one factor. Flooding from severe storms is expected to be 10 times higher by 2050.

2022 Sea Level Rise Technical Report

This Sea Level Rise Technical Report provides the most up-to-date sea level rise projections available for all U.S. states and territories; decision makers will look to it for information. This multi-agency effort, representing the first update since 2017, offers projections out to the year 2150...

oceanservice.noaa.gov

 

[ABMax24]

Take Lake Mead as an example, it is nearly impossible to get a handful of states together to agree on water cuts to preserve some safe level of water in the lake to ensure survival in future years. A threat that is very immediate, and visible to the populations in that area. No wonder there is so little movement on climate change.

I feel like the rest of the world is fighting real problems in the 2020's, and the US is still stuck in the 50's arguing laws from the 1800's.

 

[begreen]

Take Lake Mead as an example, it is nearly impossible to get a handful of states together to agree on water cuts to preserve some safe level of water in the lake to ensure survival in future years.

Good example. Two of the nation's largest reservoirs are drying up. There are some things that should not be tied to the wallet and profit. Survival is one of them.

As the climate dries the American west faces power and water shortages, experts warn

Two of the largest reservoirs in America, which provide water and electricity to millions, are in danger of reaching ‘dead pool status.’ A result of the climate crisis and overconsumption of water, experts say.

www.unep.org

 

[semipro]

Despite the assurance of most people, I still feel that some don't truly care about their progeny, especially those more than one generation out.
Whether global climate change, national debt, squandering of finite resources (e.g. fresh water), etc. many of those living seem content to let future generations deal with the excesses of today.
I'm also struck by how seldom population growth enters this type of conversation as a root cause of problems. . Although population growth rates may have slowed, the U.S. population, for example, is still growing.

 

[stoveliker]

That ^^

 

[EbS-P]

I considered switching my party affiliation to the Green Party. For all of 45 seconds. While at my core I think a two party system devalues compromise and more parties force collective governance, I feel I have more power in influence local politics by being part of a mainstream party and choosing, via primary elections, who runs in the general elections. ie my voter power index is almost assured to be zero if I vote a Green Party ticket that has realistically zero chance to be elected.

Where during the off cycle primary elections for local offices my voter power is maximized due to low turnout. And local elections aren’t gerrymandered.

 

[begreen]

Despite the assurance of most people, I still feel that some don't truly care about their progeny, especially those more than one generation out.
Whether global climate change, national debt, squandering of finite resources (e.g. fresh water), etc. many of those living seem content to let future generations deal with the excesses of today.
I'm also struck by how seldom population growth enters this type of conversation as a root cause of problems. . Although population growth rates may have slowed, the U.S. population, for example, is still growing.

Agreed. An outcome of an increasing population tied at the hip to an extractive economic system is an incredible species decline.
"We are currently living through a mass species extinction event, the largest known. The speed with which mass extinction has onset appears to be the result of human activity. Scientists estimate that we are losing 10,000 times more species per year than the normal rate."

Fact Sheet: Global Species Decline - Earth Day

The world is facing a mass extinction of species. All species of mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, arthropods (insects and arachnids), fish, crustaceans, corals and other cnidarians, and plants have declined, in many cases, severely. Human civilization has had a negative impact on most...

www.earthday.org

 

[stoveliker]

In the end this is tied to the Growth foundation of our (most) economy(s): only when there is growth (in either consumption or number of people, preferably both according to current approaches) "are we happy".
It's almost a "sin" to say otherwise, especially in this country, but growth cannot be sustainable in the long term. Not growth in number of people nor growth in consumption (of resources).

There are very extreme alternative lines of thought, but change starts with the recognition that something is problematic.

 

[Ashful]

Take Lake Mead as an example, it is nearly impossible to get a handful of states together to agree on water cuts to preserve some safe level of water in the lake to ensure survival in future years. A threat that is very immediate, and visible to the populations in that area. No wonder there is so little movement on climate change.

I feel like the rest of the world is fighting real problems in the 2020's, and the US is still stuck in the 50's arguing laws from the 1800's.

Exactly the point I was trying to make, whether everyone got it, or not. And it's not necessarily ROW vs. USA. This country is so large and diverse that there's the same division happening within our own borders.

 

[Poindexter]

I do not have 'the answer.' I do think we are in an era of human accelerated climate change. I am concerned for the planet we are leaving behind for my grand and great grand children.

One thing my wife is doing is saving every single plastic utensil that gets delivered to our table or house and reusing it to failure. A drop in the bucket perhaps, and a major pain in my neck, but the bucket was filled with drops in the first place.

Besides good air sealing, good insulation and getting the lion's share of my home heating needs in a carbon neutral platform, I am constrained by needing some kind of vehicle to get to my job so I can keep the money pump running and pay all the bills.

I have considered loading some hand tools up in my truck, driving up into the Brooks Range until I run out of gas, walking on in to someplace empty and homesteading. The reality is far removed from the pipe dream. I have no desire to relocate to the lower 48 anywhere west of the Mississippi because of ongoing and worsening water issues.

I am trying to be especially prudent about single use items, things that do not or will not last.

 

[Ashful]

I do not have 'the answer.' I do think we are in an era of human accelerated climate change. I am concerned for the planet we are leaving behind for my grand and great grand children.

One thing my wife is doing is saving every single plastic utensil that gets delivered to our table or house and reusing it to failure.

... and then there's the bodily absorption of microplastics.

I am trying to be especially prudent about single use items, things that do not or will not last.

Single use is a big problem, a la Keurig or so much of the medical and food industries. But on the residential front, product packaging is a major gripe of mine. I have three 96-gallon trash cans, and while we only fill a small percentage of one with trash and a second with recycling in any normal week, all three aren't enough for one day's trash each time my kids have a birthday or Christmas. The amount of completely unnecessary packaging wrapped around nearly every item we purchase is simply obscene. Honestly, why do we allow a 6 cubic inch Barbie to even go onto a store shelf, with 2 cubic feet of non-recyclable laminated paper on plastic packaging wrapped around it? Couldn't these things come in a simple recyclable polyethylene tube with cardboard end caps, and be just as presentable to any 6 year old?

This packaging problem is so ubiquitous across the landscape of so many product types, that one cannot easily "vote with their wallet", and simply purchase options with more sensible packaging. And maybe it's not as much a global problem as a personal problem, but it happens to be the place where I feel most defeated, as other areas where I'm falling short are at least more by my own choice.

 

[EbS-P]

I’m done complaining. Time to get off the couch and do something. Add one or two climate save if actions a month. For me this month it’s cloth diapers. Used them for the first two kids. Then hit the easy button for for two. Going to the attic now to find them before it gets hot.

 

[thecoalman]

The effects of the sinking mid-Atlantic shore coastline....

I know what you meant but since it is possible for land to sink(or rise) you should probably stick to sea rise. What is interesting is if you go and look at the raw data, There is station at The Battery in NY that is good reference because it's on relatively stable geography and has one the oldest sets of measurements.

Even more interesting is this graph, note that this can easily be misinterpreted. It doesn't show the actual sea rise but the rates at different intervals. For example from 1925 to 1975 the rate at which the sea was rising was slightly higher rate than 1970 to the present.

There is a lot of cool graphs on that site to explore but keep in mind they do not account for land movement. There is areas you can find with significant rates either way but that is only because the land is rising or dropping at significant rate.

Sea Level Trends - NOAA Tides & Currents

Sea Levels Online, a map of sea level rise and fall, trends, and anomalies

tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov

As far as the topic at hand we can all do out part and minor changes can have significant impacts. Insulating for example is not only helpful to reduce emissions but it's almost always cost effective. If you want to get people onboard you need to do things that are sensible. Simple example is I defrost things in the fridge and I do it to conserver energy. Individually it's not much but if everyone did it....

 

[semipro]

It's interesting (and scary) the factors that contribute to sea level rise and eroding coastlines.
I used to believe it was primarily due to a combination of things including:

• ice melt
• land subsidence from aquifer pumping (WRT the U.S. eastern seaboard)
• changes in the Atlantic circulation

Only recently did I learn from someone at NOAA that it's now primarily attributed to thermal expansion of seawater.

 

[Ashful]

I know what you meant but since it is possible for land to sink(or rise) you should probably stick to sea rise.

Great post, and thanks for posting that data. I've perused some of those same graphs in the past

But I did choose my words carefully. Some places are suffering from sea rise (Venice?), but the NJ coastline is a bit different. As I understand it (not a geologist), NJ and adjacent coastline is suffering more from sinking relative to adjacent land, than from sea rise itself. It has been sinking for millions of years, but always previously replenished with sediment brought up the coast by global sea currents. Unfortunately, with rising temperatures, those currents are stalling, and the replenishment is no longer sufficient to keep up with the tectonic sinking of that portion of the coast.

As I read it, the actual sea rise is just the icing on the cake, to the NJ shore. Certainly not helping matters, but only a small part of a more complex problem.

 

[semipro]

Only recently did I learn from someone at NOAA that it's now primarily attributed to thermal expansion of seawater.

Link I meant to post above:

Climate Change: Global Sea Level

Sea level has risen 8-9 inches since 1880, and the rate is accelerating thanks to glacier and ice sheet melt.

www.climate.gov

 

[SpaceBus]

I don't think we are as ready to move to green energy as quickly as the present administration is trying, but I certainly think we need to keep moving in that direction and do everything we can as individuals, local communities and a nation, in addition to improving emissions from the fossil fuels we do use. What I find particularly disturbing are countries like China and India that are building coal plants head over heels, and not really caring about the emissions. It has to be a global effort, not just an effort of a few.

I would say the administration is not moving fast enough. I'm finishing up a college course on climate change right now, it has been quite sobering. China has actually done a lot to reduce emissions, and much of their emissions are due to being the manufacturing center for the world. If you distributed all of the factories, steel mills, etc. across the glob according to who buys the products, it really changes the picture. Most Chinese citizens don't buy what they produce.

 

[SpaceBus]

At the end of the day it’s the same system that allowed companies dumped tons of PFAS compound in to rivers that are the sources a drinking water for millions. Without regulations enforcement and punishment, greed can and often does run unchecked.

Am I get the ideas that we should all do what we can. BUT I want to buy all my electricity from renewables. Can’t we have a monopoly power company in NC. They are going to court to make rate payers pay for coal ash cleanup. My hands are tied. They only think can do is hang out laundry I’ll keep on keeping on but it would be nice to see the the renewable powered light at the end of the tunnel.

I really think environmental activism could be focused at a local level with great effect. Economies of scale are sized to more favorable and at the individual level.

Just Doing what I can do and calling it a day still leaves a lot on the table. I’m Not doom and gloom capitalism has spoken and it sees the writing on the wall hence no new refining capacity and very limited new production capacity as of late.

The green new deal was not branded well. It never had a shot.

The more I think about the article the more I think it presents a dangerous path. If you don’t lobby at all levels of Government you will be left behind. We must keep playing the game. Loosing still affects change. Not playing gives power to others.

At the end of the day there are not enough people doing their part. Or are there? How do we persuade them? Carbon tax?

There really needs to be a revolution against these massive corporations, like Dupont and Standard/Exxon, who just needlessly polluted so much of the planet. The TEL debacle is responsible for unfathomable environmental and public health disasters. They should be the ones responsible for funding the environmental cleanup/repair, not taxpayers. Due to capitalism we all basically have had no choice, and still mostly don't, about how we carry out our lives. Generations before me decided we needed to build cars and burn fossil fuels. This really goes back to Antiquity, but obviously the last 100 or so years have seen absurd CO2 and methane emissions. I didn't ask to come to a world where I'm forced to burn fossil fuels to do pretty much anything, but the corporations have been steering us in this direction in the name of profit.
Capitalism will always be beholden to profit and significant change will be very slow in a capitalist economy.

 

[stoveliker]

true, but that is also in part because consumers don't (want to) think about alternatives. They gobble up what is offered.
Market push vs market pull.
And the latter is why the OP is contemplating pulling in another way as a consumer. That is to be applauded.

We can't change the economic situation/structure (in a timeframe quick enough to resolve the climate issue, if that is at all possible), but we can make personal choices that contribute to such a change, however slow it will be globally.