how to install a quiet radiant loop-floor joist

[barnartist]

Just thought I'd ask and gather any spec of opinions on keeping a radiant loop sound free. Part of my house has this installed(I love it) but it is noisey if I let it cycle on and off. I am wondering if this time I should use bigger staples so that the pipe can move better. I also have ordered some transfer plates I plan to use under a heavy carpet pad area.
I am currently insulating around the outer joist area, and will soon be ready to run some pex.

 

[barnartist]

Also, wich of these products to use as the reflective wrap;

(broken link removed to http://www.energyefficientsolutions.com/files/ARMAFOILVB-Specs.pdf)

http://www.insulation4less.com/Insu...flective-Bubble-Reflective-RBR.aspx#fragment2

The armafoil is about $120 cheaper than the Prodex per 1000 sq feet.

 

[Fred61]

Just thought I'd ask and gather any spec of opinions on keeping a radiant loop sound free. Part of my house has this installed(I love it) but it is noisey if I let it cycle on and off. I am wondering if this time I should use bigger staples so that the pipe can move better. I also have ordered some transfer plates I plan to use under a heavy carpet pad area.
I am currently insulating around the outer joist area, and will soon be ready to run some pex.

Did you order the annealed plates like the ones from Radiant Co? As I said in an earlier post, I used them and have no noise. I also used the reflective material they carry. It's like an aluminized fabric and easy to work with. Don't remember what I paid for it. It comes in a 4 ft. wide roll and I cut it with a skill saw. You will, of course also need to install insulation below it. BTW Radiant recommended using the aluminum plates throughout the floor, not just under carpet. I did!

 

[fixmyboat]

Look into one of these

http://www.pexsupply.com/Taco-I075C...eset-I-Series-Mixing-Valve-w-Sensor-5201000-p

By constantly circulating water you'll minimize expansion/noise. Control the btu output with water temperature.

 

[barnartist]

Fred, I did order those plates that you recommended. I know I should probably use them throughout the system, not just in part of it.
I think I will get the foil-bubble-foil elsware though, I found it cheaper at other sites. Thanks!

Man, that outdoor reset valve is freakin pricey. Really, these things cost 300+?!! I guess if I want it done right...

 

[Grover59]

At this time I am installing radiant floor heat in the kitchen and bathroom area, last year I did the living room and dinning room. I made my own transfer plates with alum flashing, it works great, I don't seem to have much noise like some people complain about. I did not use any fancy controls just a floor thermostat, and I limited the temperature the boiler will go to when my radiant zones call for heat.

Steve

 

[Fred61]

I don't know how bad the noise is, but before I spent that kind of money on a control that would make the circulator run 24/7, I would consider changing the the plates. Or maybe wait a while. As you age your hearing will fail.
If you leave a space between the plates you should get less noise.

 

[fixmyboat]

skip the bubble wrap and use at least r13 foil faced batt. Save your money for outdoor reset. Is radiant the main heat source or just supplemental? Be sure to do a heat calc becuase staple up has a hard time keeping up with northern winters.

 

[DaveBP]

Couple of articles about noisy radiant installations:

http://www.pmmag.com/Articles/Column/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000439597

http://www.pmmag.com/Articles/Column/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000464133

And one by the same author about magic bubble foil:

http://www.pmmag.com/Articles/Column/ade39412e70d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

 

[barnartist]

no local lumberyard carry a batt with foil it is all paper faced

 

[barnartist]

Thanks Dave, I did read those two articles before as you suggested. I am wondering though, how does the plate get to move freely if it is stapled up? I'm sure I am over thinking it all.

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks Dave, I did read those two articles before as you suggested. I am wondering though, how does the plate get to move freely if it is stapled up? I'm sure I am over thinking it all.

If I was reading the article properly, the issue isn't the plate moving as such. It's that the PEX and the plate expand different amounts and the two tend to stick together until the pressure is great enough, then the Pex "jumps" causing the noise... It's sort of the same way earthquakes happen on a MUCH smaller scale... Stapling the plates doesn't seem to make a lot of difference, though I noticed that it was reccomended to only staple one side when doing installs where the plate would end up being sandwiched between other materials...

Gooserider

 

[coolidge]

Check out this website. insulationsolutions.com. I have used some of there products and they work as advertised.

 

[Fred61]

The suggestion to staple only one side pertained to above floor tube and plate installation. I used the plates to hold the pex against the subfloor and put a staple anywhere one was needed to hold the plate tight against the subfloor and keep a tight grip on the pex. Used an electric stapler.

 

[Fred61]

Hey, I just had a thought! A couple weeks ago I picked up an aerosol can of dry lube at Home Cheapo. It's PTFE powder in some sort of quickly evaporating vehicle. Why not spray the plate just before stapling it up. It should remain there forever. My main reason for purchasing it was to lubricate an aluminum ladder that was sticking. I'm sure most of you have experienced stickiness between two aluminum components. It seemed to work. This would help if Seigenthaler's theory has any credibility.
BTW I asked about foil faced insultion at my local Ace store. They said they will order it for me.

 

[Gooserider]

Hey, I just had a thought! A couple weeks ago I picked up an aerosol can of dry lube at Home Cheapo. It's PTFE powder in some sort of quickly evaporating vehicle. Why not spray the plate just before stapling it up. It should remain there forever. My main reason for purchasing it was to lubricate an aluminum ladder that was sticking. I'm sure most of you have experienced stickiness between two aluminum components. It seemed to work. This would help if Seigenthaler's theory has any credibility.
BTW I asked about foil faced insultion at my local Ace store. They said they will order it for me.

The only thing I'd be worried about with doing that is what kind of chemical reactions the stuff might have with the PEX, not so much the PTFE, but the carrier and any residues that it leaves behind... If you look at the documentation on any sort of PEX, there is a LONG list of chemicals that it is sensitive to, along with UV light, all of which it emphatically should NOT be exposed to, not because of immediate problems, but because of slow failure that develops a while later... The list includes a lot of petrochemicals, so I'd want to see something in writing from the lube maker and / or the PEX maker (preferably both) saying that the product won't harm PEX tubing, and won't impact any durability guarantees... I do know some installs put a specified brand of silicone caulk between the plates and the tubes, I understand that this is supposed to both improve the heat conduction and possibly reduce noise - presumably the rubbery nature of the silicone acts as a noise damper / shock absorber to reduce the sounds...

Gooserider

 

[Fred61]

Hey, I just had a thought! A couple weeks ago I picked up an aerosol can of dry lube at Home Cheapo. It's PTFE powder in some sort of quickly evaporating vehicle. Why not spray the plate just before stapling it up. It should remain there forever. My main reason for purchasing it was to lubricate an aluminum ladder that was sticking. I'm sure most of you have experienced stickiness between two aluminum components. It seemed to work. This would help if Seigenthaler's theory has any credibility.
BTW I asked about foil faced insultion at my local Ace store. They said they will order it for me.

The only thing I'd be worried about with doing that is what kind of chemical reactions the stuff might have with the PEX, not so much the PTFE, but the carrier and any residues that it leaves behind... If you look at the documentation on any sort of PEX, there is a LONG list of chemicals that it is sensitive to, along with UV light, all of which it emphatically should NOT be exposed to, not because of immediate problems, but because of slow failure that develops a while later... The list includes a lot of petrochemicals, so I'd want to see something in writing from the lube maker and / or the PEX maker (preferably both) saying that the product won't harm PEX tubing, and won't impact any durability guarantees... I do know some installs put a specified brand of silicone caulk between the plates and the tubes, I understand that this is supposed to both improve the heat conduction and possibly reduce noise - presumably the rubbery nature of the silicone acts as a noise damper / shock absorber to reduce the sounds...

Gooserider

I predicted the above response. The vehicle is aliphatic hydrocarbons and when evaporated there is virtually nothing left behind. It's safe for plastics including styrene which is usually the most sensitive to solvents and chemicals. I spent 24 years playing with solvents in my career in building recording heads. Any cleaning solvents or diluents and chemicals in adhesives could mean failure if they were not compatible with the components so I have a pretty good idea of the effects.

 

[Gooserider]

Hey, I just had a thought! A couple weeks ago I picked up an aerosol can of dry lube at Home Cheapo. It's PTFE powder in some sort of quickly evaporating vehicle. Why not spray the plate just before stapling it up. It should remain there forever. My main reason for purchasing it was to lubricate an aluminum ladder that was sticking. I'm sure most of you have experienced stickiness between two aluminum components. It seemed to work. This would help if Seigenthaler's theory has any credibility.
BTW I asked about foil faced insultion at my local Ace store. They said they will order it for me.

The only thing I'd be worried about with doing that is what kind of chemical reactions the stuff might have with the PEX, not so much the PTFE, but the carrier and any residues that it leaves behind... If you look at the documentation on any sort of PEX, there is a LONG list of chemicals that it is sensitive to, along with UV light, all of which it emphatically should NOT be exposed to, not because of immediate problems, but because of slow failure that develops a while later... The list includes a lot of petrochemicals, so I'd want to see something in writing from the lube maker and / or the PEX maker (preferably both) saying that the product won't harm PEX tubing, and won't impact any durability guarantees... I do know some installs put a specified brand of silicone caulk between the plates and the tubes, I understand that this is supposed to both improve the heat conduction and possibly reduce noise - presumably the rubbery nature of the silicone acts as a noise damper / shock absorber to reduce the sounds...

Gooserider

I predicted the above response. The vehicle is aliphatic hydrocarbons and when evaporated there is virtually nothing left behind. It's safe for plastics including styrene which is usually the most sensitive to solvents and chemicals. I spent 24 years playing with solvents in my career in building recording heads. Any cleaning solvents or diluents and chemicals in adhesives could mean failure if they were not compatible with the components so I have a pretty good idea of the effects.

You may well be right, I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the relevant chemistry... However both by my own somewhat conservative nature, and by the job of being a mod, I need to be ultra cautious and point out the potential hazards... I don't want the risk of having someones install fail a few years down the road because of something I told them to do... Not that I'm all that concerned about the potential liability, I just don't want the responsibility...

OTOH, If I mention the potential issue, and someone else decides that it isn't a problem, I feel like I'm covering the bases... Given the one-time nature of doing an install, because of the difficulty and expense of going back in to fix any "mistakes" for my own system I will probably stick with the materials and techniques reccomended by the guys that get paid for doing it...

Gooserider

 

[heppm01]

I do know some installs put a specified brand of silicone caulk between the plates and the tubes, I understand that this is supposed to both improve the heat conduction and possibly reduce noise - presumably the rubbery nature of the silicone acts as a noise damper / shock absorber to reduce the sounds...

I used generous amounts of silicone caulk in my recent radiant tear-down and re-do (previous owner of my house was an idiot). First fire of the season will be in the next day or two and I'll report back with my impressions.

Matt

 

[barnartist]

I'd like to hear a report as soon as you have one, I am kinda dragging my feet a bit before I go much further just to see if I can pick up any more goodie info. Thanks guys.

So, get some clear silicone and the thought is to put a small bead on the transfer plate where the pex will lay. Might work well.

Again for the record, my last install was just staple up, and then I used foil-bubble-foil about 1 1/2 below that. It works well as far as heating, but I think the noise comes from the staples when the pipe moves. I have a manual mixing valve, and I just have been keeping the pump running and adjusting the water temp by hand as needed. I have yet to set up a thermostat to cut the loop ciculator.

 

[flyingcow]

I've got wirsbo staple up with aluminum plates. Have not noticed any noise. Had in place for a few years.
-
My system is controlled by a probe installed at the floor level, I set the temp by a set point. Right now about 74. Once winter sets in, the floor never shuts off. Usually will turn up to 78/80.
-
In the bumper season, i run the water temp 80/90. I've got it turned up to 125 for the rest of winter. keeps up, does a good job. I tried running the waterb temp at 80/90 but will not perform well. I got the typical 2 layers of subfloor and tiles to push the heat up thru.
-
I've only got this in my kitchen floor. About 35% of my floor space on first floor.

 

[barnartist]

Flyingcow, I need to learn about this probe controller you have. I am realizing that a standard thermostat will probably not be the ideal way to control the room temp.

Also, how are you heating the rest of the house outside your radiant area?

 

[flyingcow]

Johnson Controla- A419 series electronic temp control. Not my idea, installers choice. Could be many different ways and equipment that would do the same. The temp probe is just about 3 inches above floor. Stuck in a corner. I assuming this was put low so as to get a more accurate temp of floor. Someone on this site may have a better explanation.
-
The rest of the house is just plain old baseboard. The radiant floor that is in the kitchen has BB also. My T-stat that runs the down stairs zone(which is the baseboard) is in living room. Should have had the rest of downstairs done in radiant, but......
Kind of have the best of both worlds. Radiant for steady heat and BB for when I come home and house is down on temp. Fire up the Innova and about 45 minutes it will be sending 165 soon to be 195 temp water thru the BB and heats up house very quickly. House is toasty, then the radiant catches up.

 

[fixmyboat]

Flying cows got it right. Staple up is best for supplimental heat during the cold months. Just takes too high water temps to keep up with design load. Its great for pulling btu's out of storage and oh comfy but provide a fast response heat source. I bet that his system is quite because he keeps the circ on almost all the time and adjusts btu via a mixing valve manually. If you don't mind messing with it you could skip the motorized valve and do it that way. A bead of silicone in the groove before you staple up the plate couldn't hurt and will probable provide a host of benefits. ( have seen no data but makes sense) They carry foil faced batt at the big box or you could ask the local if they could order it for you. If not nonfaced will do the job. A radiant barrier under a radiant floor isn't that critical and is difficult to install properly. Especially if your covering the majority of the tube with thin stamped plates which are naturally low emmissive.

good luck

 

[Grover59]

I am still working on my staple up on the other side of the house, I have a lot of plates to staple up still, I will start using the silicon for the rest of the install. I wish I had known this before when I did the living room and dining room floors, oh well hind sight is 20/20, thanks for the great info.

STeve