HUGE smoke problem!!!!!!!!!

[clemsonfor]

OK so if you have read any of my posts i have made in the last few weeks or months.... I have purchased a freestanding stove and a liner and have set it up in the fireplace in the farm house.

Well first off i had to trim 3"s off the pedastal to make it fit, then it would not slide back into place so i had to beat the bricks back on the back corners....anyway just some of the trouble not the point of this topic.

So i get my first fire started. Start burning cardboard to just test to see if it draws. It seems to be doing good. So i get some twigs going, there doing good so i get some larger branches/small diameter wood. Then i throw some more cardboard on and get it rolling then all of a sudden, fire out, and smoke pours into the house. Close door, nothing. Now its a panic, wife opens windows and puts a fan in cause its poring in!! Cant stop inno matter what each time i open it ALL the smoke is pouring into room. It finially goes out and i pull the branches out and dampen all the coals.

Later i am thinking what could be the problem. Though that its almost like there was ZERO draft no smoke going anywhere but in the house? Then i think about the insulating blaket that was on top of the stove on the inside when you look into the smoke outlet on top of the stove. I read on here that makers put them in i guess to help keep the top warm for the secondaries.....well i was thinking that seemed light and loose, i wonder if that stove got to drafting so strong it sucked the insulation blanket into the chimney pipe??? Take the conector loose and sure enough there it was sucked tight to the chimney still blocking the outlet? What the heck, i know that things was suppose to be in there but i ripped it out and its not going back in there, happened once and never again, thats crazy, anybody heard of this or had this happen??


This is a Vogelzang Highlander stove. This is a 1.3cuft EPA tube stove for those not familiar.

 

[Swedishchef]

Sounds like something blocked the chimney or a serious downdraft was created somehow...I have personally never heard of an insulating blanket getting sucked into a stove pipe..that would have to be a heck of a mean draft However the experts will chime in...

Andrew

 

[clemsonfor]

SOmething did block the chimney, the insulating blanket!! The chimney is a 6" flax liner. Total chimney height is 14 ft to the bottome of the hearth, so the stove is say 24"s tall-ish so cut it down to 12ft but the chimney cap with the flex liner is about 12"s higher than the chimney so the total is about 13ft, it says 15ft but id figure id run it and see.
Oh outside temp at the time was in 60s?

 

[corey21]

Wow never heard of a insulation board being sucked into pipe.

 

[clemsonfor]

This is like 1" insulation batt, its denser than fiberglass but appears like fiberglass, to give an idea of material.

 

[corey21]

If it was in the 60's out imagine what your draft will be like when January get here.

 

[granpajohn]

Very interesting event, Clem.
I have often looked at that blanket and worried about wether it is in place or not. Of course, with my draft (or lack thereof), it's not getting sucked anywhere.

But, could you place a little weight on that blanket? I imagine a piece of WWF (er, that's steel welded wire fabric).

 

[clemsonfor]

Grandpa, i guess i could have, but its torn in two pieces right now as i pulled it out through the flue opening up top, with the stove set into the fireplace opening. If i wanted i could either lay the 2 pieces back in there with weight on them or buy a new one and weight it. Whatever the weight it would have to be able to be fit through the flue 6" colar, so a wide piece of steel welded wire would not fit into the collar. I could put rocks or hunks of say 1/4" flat bar across it. But that thing got sucked into there pretty good!

 

[clemsonfor]

Here is a pic of the insulation. Its torn to the right of the black ring. Its 2 pieces here i just laid them side by side for the pic.

Clearly seen is the carbon black ring where it was lodged into the top collar. Even after fire was out it was pulled up into the flue.

 

[rwhite]

Most diagrams I've seen show a weight on the blanket. My insert was supposed to have 1/2" of the stuff on top of the brick baffle. I tried with and without and could not tell any difference. And it made cleaning a pain so I pulled it. When I did have it in there I used and old circular saw blade as a weight.

 

[Sprinter]

My guess is you had a "backpuff". The warm outside temps is a perfect scenario for a sudden backpuff (kind of a small explosion) and it might have had enough force to push the blanket up. They can be pretty frightening. It's kind of a "gasp" for air that results in a sudden, explosive event. Sometimes you can get a series of them, like the "glug, glug, glug" when you try to pour from a bottle.

A few weeks ago, one happened to my wife when she was getting a fire going here under similar circumstances. It didn't push the blanket up, though. That's bound to be a rarity...

 

[granpajohn]

I was going to say that I envy your draft, but Sprinter's idea about the backpuff makes some sense.

I also have looked at the blanket and thought " is this thing really necessary?". But, after a period of less than perfect burning once, I found the blanket dislocated, and repositioning it restored the stove to top performance.

Could replace it with rigid insulation maybe.

 

[madison]

Keep the cardboard out of the stove next time, as the cardboard inferno induced the draft that sucked the innards (blanket). Burnt cardboard could potentially plug the cap screen, as well as initiate a a chimney fire in a uncleaned chimney. <<-- First hand experience

 

[clemsonfor]

My guess is you had a "backpuff". The warm outside temps is a perfect scenario for a sudden backpuff (kind of a small explosion) and it might have had enough force to push the blanket up. They can be pretty frightening. It's kind of a "gasp" for air that results in a sudden, explosive event. Sometimes you can get a series of them, like the "glug, glug, glug" when you try to pour from a bottle.

A few weeks ago, one happened to my wife when she was getting a fire going here under similar circumstances. It didn't push the blanket up, though. That's bound to be a rarity...

Not sure how it can backpuff when the door is open and its drafting well? And i have seen backpuffs on my other stove, nothing like this.

 

[clemsonfor]

Keep the cardboard out of the stove next time, as the cardboard inferno induced the draft that sucked the innards (blanket). Burnt cardboard could potentially plug the cap screen, as well as initiate a a chimney fire in a uncleaned chimney. <<-- First hand experience

In my other stove i never use carbboard, but its a cat stove so i am more picky about what goes in it.

Really the first time i have ever used cardboard, but the fire was no less intense than stuff i have had in my other stove that i have had with just wood/kindling fires And i was up on the roof this weekend as well siliconing my top plate on, not a piece of ash in the cap screen, not sure about the rest of the pipe.

As far as not having the blanket in, cant tell you the longterm performance, but i had one heck of a fire that was still putting out killer heat at about 5 hours out of that tiny stove with it closed down all the way. (wood is not perfect but im mixing with real dry and burning what i got. It was elm and cherry that has been split around 6ish months.) HAd the doors and windows in the house open. There was a decent secondary show as well for an hour or so.

 

[Sprinter]

Not sure how it can backpuff when the door is open and its drafting well? And i have seen backpuffs on my other stove, nothing like this.

Hmm. If the door was open at the time, then I'm not sure about the backpuff theory any more. Maybe the blanket just wasn't positioned right in the first place and it didn't take much for it to kind of drift up until it covered enough of the flue to suddenly plug it completely.

You may be able to just replace it properly and it will be fine, but as someone else suggested, you may be able to get a rigid insulating ceramic plate to replace the blanket if you don't want to risk that again. Some stoves use them instead of the fluffy stuff. They're like the shields used on the Space Shuttle. Or maybe glue the blanket down with stove glue or something. Just random thoughts.

 

[begreen]

Was this a brand new liner or had another stove been connected to this liner prior to this stove? The sudden strong updraft makes me wonder if you had a chimney fire.

I would consider adding a couple weights on top of the blanket. Can you get hold of some 3/16" steel flat stock? If so, make some ~2" x 12" flat strips. Install the insulation blanket, then lay the strips on top of the blanket to the left and right of the flue collar opening.

 

[Heatsource]

Very interesting event, Clem.
I have often looked at that blanket and worried about wether it is in place or not. Of course, with my draft (or lack thereof), it's not getting sucked anywhere.

But, could you place a little weight on that blanket? I imagine a piece of WWF (er, that's steel welded wire fabric).

some stoves have weights on the blanket, good idea

 

[Sprinter]

some stoves have weights on the blanket, good idea

As long as you don't overdo it. Mashing down on fluffy insulation removes any insulating properties.

 

[clemsonfor]

Was this a brand new liner or had another stove been connected to this liner prior to this stove? The sudden strong updraft makes me wonder if you had a chimney fire.

I would consider adding a couple weights on top of the blanket. Can you get hold of some 3/16" steel flat stock? If so, make some ~2" x 12" flat strips. Install the insulation blanket, then lay the strips on top of the blanket to the left and right of the flue collar opening.

Im gonna run this season without it and see if I like the performance, I liked what I saw so far without it. This is at my farmhouse and were only there on weekends so its not my primary stove. Yea I can make some weights outa some steel, but I did just get rid of a lot of my stock of junk as I just hauled scrap. But I have some flat plate and other stuff I can cut up to make some weights to hold it or I can always get some. With it being in 2 pieces would you put it back in and weight it good on both sides or try and get ahold of a new one, they should warrenty it I would think as it was a defect is my guess?

Interesting that I am the only one to have this problem so far??

The liner was brand new, so the chimney fire theory is out.

 

[zzr7ky]

Then i think about the insulating blaket that was on top of the stove on the inside when you look into the smoke outlet on top of the stove. I read on here that makers put them in i guess to help keep the top warm for the secondaries.....well i was thinking that seemed light and loose, i wonder if that stove got to drafting so strong it sucked the insulation blanket into the chimney pipe??? Take the conector loose and sure enough there it was sucked tight to the chimney still blocking the outlet? What the heck, i know that things was suppose to be in there but i ripped it out and its not going back in there, happened once and never again, thats crazy, anybody heard of this or had this happen??

 

[zzr7ky]

That hight of chimney isn't going to gererate a lot of draft. I am thinking backpuff as well.

 

[clemsonfor]

That hight of chimney isn't going to gererate a lot of draft. I am thinking backpuff as well.

Man are yall reading this?

I would of thought the same thing about draft, but when the door to the stove is open and the fire is rageing and not a bit of smoke in the house then all of a sudden nothing fire out and smoke pouring into the room, that's not a backpuff!!

A back puff happens on a lazy fire or one that's chocked down, smoke accumulates in the box or its blown down the chimney then whom it combusts and smoke blows into the room through the vents, that is not whathappened!

 

[Sprinter]

That hight of chimney isn't going to gererate a lot of draft. I am thinking backpuff as well.

Has anyone experienced a backpuff with the door open? If not for that detail, I might stick with that theory, but I'm not sure it could happen and still put enough force upward.

 

[Brewmonster]

My stove has a similar ceramic wool blanket but there's a metal weight, a disc about 4.5" in diameter that goes on top of it right in the middle.

You can operate the stove without the blanket, but I think it works better with. Sounds like you need one of those weights.