Hybrid stoves

[Papa-Yankee-Romeo-Oscar]

Okay, I'm in the market for a stove number 2 and I've been lurking and reading around. I'm a bit confused here, I understand the concept of the hybrid stoves and it is throwing me off that I'm reading quite a few posts stating that they are basically a tube stove with the cat to clean things up...? To me it seems it would be just the opposite considering that the cats operate in a much wider range than the tubes and the air is forced to pass through the cat. It seems more that they are a cat stove with a tube setup to give it that extra bit of go. I know the BK straight cat stoves get crazy long burns and the gains come from their bimetal thermostat that controls the air. I think if BK put out a hybrid it would be the cat's meow and would out-burn anything out there. Now if they could just figure out how to make a good looking stove??

The Ashford is better but bland with a big ugly behind.

 

[BrowningBAR]

The Hybrid stoves are less about super long burn times and more about super clean burning. You will get a little longer burn with the Hybrid stoves than you would a staight non-cat stove, but the low burn that you get from the Fireview/Keystone/BK models isn't what they are made for at this point. The new steel stove from Woodstock seems to be pointing towards the ability to produce a lower burn which should extend the burn times.

I have no info on Regency's big 4.4 cu ft F5100. They claim 30 hours on low. But, I am guessing a steel stove on a pedestal isn't your cup of tea.

 

[webby3650]

I posted this info in another thread in case you missed it.
In the hybrids, the cat is really acting as a scrubber for the smoke. It helps with the slower burn, but not to the extent that a true cat stove can.

Here's the skinny on this as it was told to me from a friend in the know.
With all the testing that the EPA has conducted on stoves they have came to this conclusion on cat compared to non-cat:

- Non cat stoves burn at their cleanest from a medium to high setting.
-Cat stoves run their cleanest from a medium to low setting.
-Stoves spend 80% of their burn cycle on the medium to low setting. You do the math

These EPA efficiency ratings are very confusing to say the least! If you notice an EPA tag, most say "not tested for efficiency" they are given a default effeciency rating because they tested ok in some areas and not so good in others areas and the Default number is better than the actual test. To my Knowledge, Blaze King, Woodstock, and the Cape Cod are the only stoves giving actual numbers.

So the EPA is cracking down on manufacturers for dirty numbers, therefore adding a cat is an attempt to clean it up and it works, but it's nothing new! Blaze King did it in 1983, after a few thousand units it was abandoned. Hybrids can burn very clean, but so do most cat stoves. The down fall is the added expense upfront as well as maintenance in the future. You are buying both combustion systems and maintaining them.

You will see a cat in every stove sold in the US in a few short years. Get ready, it's coming!
BTW, if you are turned off by the looks of the Ashford or Woodstocks, I think you will have a hard time finding a great performing stove that has the looks you want. It's a nice looking stove!

 

[Papa-Yankee-Romeo-Oscar]

Yeah that's what I'm talking about but it seems more that they are a cat stove with the added burn support of the tubes. I could see where the cat would just be burning that last little bit out when the tubes are burning but when the temp drops and the tubes go out doesn't the cat continue to burn? I've never owned a cat or Hybrid stove so I really don't know but it just seems to me that this is how it would work?

 

[Todd]

The tubes get first crack at the smoke and gas and as long as fire box temps are high enough they should take care of the majority of the burn and continue for as long as there's fuel to burn.

Now if you could have total control of your air that supplies the tubes and shut them off that would leave the cat to take over the total burn. This is what I'd like to see, best of both worlds but that may require more than one air control which may make it look too complicated to some.

 

[Papa-Yankee-Romeo-Oscar]

How long does a cat usually stay active in a normal cat stove not including the BK stoves with their alien technology bimetal thermostat?

 

[Todd]

How long does a cat usually stay active in a normal cat stove not including the BK stoves with their alien technology bimetal thermostat?

Mine will stay active (above 500) for most of the burn. I loaded this morning after 13 hours and the cat was just under 500. Currently she's cruising along at 1200.

 

[Papa-Yankee-Romeo-Oscar]

Yeah, my tubes only stay really active for a couple hours on a good burn then it's just a little light show every now and then. I'd think that in a hybrid stove, once it gets cooled down to the point the tubes aren't active the cat would be doing most of the cleanup work.

 

[Papa-Yankee-Romeo-Oscar]

The Hybrid stoves are less about super long burn times and more about super clean burning. You will get a little longer burn with the Hybrid stoves than you would a staight non-cat stove, but the low burn that you get from the Fireview/Keystone/BK models isn't what they are made for at this point. The new steel stove from Woodstock seems to be pointing towards the ability to produce a lower burn which should extend the burn times.

I have no info on Regency's big 4.4 cu ft F5100. They claim 30 hours on low. But, I am guessing a steel stove on a pedestal isn't your cup of tea.

BB, sorry for the slow reply, I just noticed your post up there. That regency stove really doesn't look too bad for a big metal box. So that's hybrid stove number three on the current market with number four soon to come from woodstock. Maybe I should hold out another year to see what else pops up.

I wonder how realistic the 30+ hours on low is. I know BK does it but that's mostly due to the thermostatic damper. Does the new Regency have something comeperable?

 

[BrowningBAR]

BB, sorry for the slow reply, I just noticed your post up there. That regency stove really doesn't look too bad for a big metal box. So that's hybrid stove number three on the current market with number four soon to come from woodstock. Maybe I should hold out another year to see what else pops up.

I wonder how realistic the 30+ hours on low is. I know BK does it but that's mostly due to the thermostatic damper. Does the new Regency have something comeperable?

I don't believe we have heard from any 5100 owners at this point. So, burn time claims still aren't verified.

 

[begreen]

We don't have any full season reports on the 5100 yet, but there were some early ones.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/regency-5100-stove-pipe-questions.115728/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/regency-5100-the-first-few-months.104350/

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I wonder how realistic the 30+ hours on low is. I know BK does it but that's mostly due to the thermostatic damper. Does the new Regency have something comeperable?

WIth a 4.5 CU ft firebox thats a lot of wood to go thru. It should get 30 hours.

 

[begreen]

It all depends on how hard the stove is pushed. Put it in a 4,000 sq ft house that needs 60K btus to stay warm and the burntime will be much shorter. The long burn times on these stoves are for shoulder season.

 

[Highbeam]

I wonder how realistic the 30+ hours on low is. I know BK does it but that's mostly due to the thermostatic damper. Does the new Regency have something comeperable?

The long burns are NOT because of the stat but because of the stoves ability to keep an active cat with very little combustion occuring. As many members have discovered, that stat just stays closed most of the time anyway with just the bypass hole being the only source of air after the cat is engaged. Other brands have tried thermostats and have not gotten the long burn times. I don't know the why, I just enjoy the because.

Your non-cat awesome fireshow goes out after a couple of hours because it has finished burning the majority of the fuel.

The 30 hour burn times are conservative. Many of us have gotten longer than 30 hours in experiments. Truth is, 24 is a great number since it allows you to refill once per day on a schedule. My coffee pot makes coffee once per 24 hours at the same time every day and I also load the stove plus a bunch of other chores once per 24 hours at the same time every day.

 

[Highbeam]

The long burn times on these stoves are for shoulder season.

You would think so but after burning one, I can say that the low setting is all I need for 95% of the year with the ability to bump up output during cold snaps. If you size the stove to satisfy your heating needs on low for most of the year then there will be times in the shoulder seasons that you let the fire go out more often. It helps to have good insulation, smallish house, and live in a climate with pretty steady temps all winter.

Most of us run these things on low for most of the year. What makes this work is that even on low, there is an output all day where the non-cat shoots its load all in the first few hours.

 

[oldspark]

A couple of hours in a non-cat, dont think so.

 

[begreen]

Agreed. They are ideal for our climate. I'm talking big east coast houses experiencing real cold. Not our occasional forays into the 20s here.

 

[Slow1]

Yeah that's what I'm talking about but it seems more that they are a cat stove with the added burn support of the tubes. I could see where the cat would just be burning that last little bit out when the tubes are burning but when the temp drops and the tubes go out doesn't the cat continue to burn? I've never owned a cat or Hybrid stove so I really don't know but it just seems to me that this is how it would work?

Essentially that matches my observations with the PH. I start out and if the load is large enough and I give it enough air it will have secondary burns at the top of the box. Then as I often times dial the air down, it will go out and the cat will take over (Surface temp this morning about 400, but no smoke up the pipe and a glow on the wood).

When I crank it for more heat (in January for example) the burn will remain on the top of the box for quite a bit longer (all temps higher clearly) and then eventually it will burn out. When burning hot like this I can't really speculate on whether the cat is making a big difference compared to a pure-tube type stove, but again I won't have any inkling of smoke out the stack throughout until reload.

I have also been having good luck this year with smaller loads where I have little to no flame in the box shortly after engaging the cat. Air down quite a bit and the stovetop will cruise at 300-350. Still no smoke so I have to assume this is entirely cat burns. Note that the "stovetop" measurements I'm taking are from the back next to the flue (top exit) not right above the cat so I don't think there is a very direct link between this temp and the cat temp (I expect cat is burning hotter than that).

This stove is happier/easier to run with relatively higher outputs than the FV in my opinion, but of course it is a larger stove - if looking for long extended burns I"d go with a pure cat.

 

[oldspark]

After the gases state of the fire is done and you have the charcoal state there will be no smoke with enough air, look it up the stages of fire on google, after my flue temp get up to about 350 degrees I never see any smoke until reload and thats not much compared to start up from cold.
If the fire is hot enough the gases are consumed in the fire box and the lower part of the flue, this is why you can get an old stove to burn with out smoke.

 

[Papa-Yankee-Romeo-Oscar]

The long burns are NOT because of the stat but because of the stoves ability to keep an active cat with very little combustion occuring. As many members have discovered, that stat just stays closed most of the time anyway with just the bypass hole being the only source of air after the cat is engaged.

It seems to me that the stoves ability to keep the cat active with very little combustion would be a product of the thermostat. It makes sense to me that it would stay closed most of the time while the cat is active keeping the burn to a very minimum then when it starts to cool a bit it would open just wide and long enough to heat it up and keep the cat active then close back down again. I think others just couldn't perfect the process to the degree that BK has.

Your non-cat awesome fireshow goes out after a couple of hours because it has finished burning the majority of the fuel.

I think it's more that the air temp coming in the tubes isn't quite hot enough to ignite the secondary gasses. Once my secondaries go out, if I crank the stove back up and get it hot again they will take off with a nice flame show again. Once it cools the secondaries calm down again only giving a nice little show every now and then which is probably just certain gasses that have a lower auto-ignite temperature.

 

[begreen]

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoarticl.htm)

 

[Highbeam]

Agreed. They are ideal for our climate. I'm talking big east coast houses experiencing real cold. Not our occasional forays into the 20s here.

Yes a big, old, uninsulated house in Maine during the coldest part of winter in windstorm will need more than a BK on low. I would like to think that those are the minority and that the rest of the woodburning community is somewhere between that and Phoenix in a modern singlewide trailer.

Low output for 24 hours is much different than the flash in a pan from the non-cat. I now own both technology stoves and the difference is significant.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Yes a big, old, uninsulated house in Maine during the coldest part of winter in windstorm will need more than a BK on low. I would like to think that those are the minority

Unfortunately, that really isn't a rare occurrence in the northeast. Lots of poorly insulated homes around here. Lots of old homes that are under-insulated.

 

[oldspark]

"Low output for 24 hours is much different than the flash in a pan from the non-cat. I now own both technology stoves and the difference is significant."
Hog reported 12 hour burns out of his Summit insert, not sure how hot the stove was at the end of the cycle but he was loading it every 12 hours.
I would love to try a cat stove but not sure with the cost of todays stoves I want to play musical stoves.

 

[BrowningBAR]

"Low output for 24 hours is much different than the flash in a pan from the non-cat. I now own both technology stoves and the difference is significant."
Hog reported 12 burns out of his Summit insert.

Right, and I can get 12 from the 30NC. But, in those 12 hours, I will get more heat than I need for the first 3-4 hours and then less heat than I would like in the last 3-4 hours. What the BK system does is offer more steady heat throughout the burn cycle.