Improving performance of a Neo 2.5 insert.

[TomMcDonald]

Hi ,

I'm Tom. I've been lurking this forum for many years but never posted.

I installed a Pacific Energy Neo 2.5 insert into an existing chimney on an external wall in 2020 and have used it for 2 seasons so far. I installed a thin galvanised register plate above it at the same time that is insulated.

I am reasonably happy with the heater, bar some complaints about an apparent 'dead spot' on the left hand side which some of these heaters seem to have. Sometimes the left hand quarter or so just won't seem to combust and I need to avoid putting wood there.
I also thought the heater would chase us out of the house when it was cranking, but I would say it's just adequate, even in our mild winters (minimum of maybe 25f) and modest house size (1700sqf).

Our house has a large open plan living area in which the heater is situated - 860 sqf - a long hallway off that room that is very narrow. The warm air has trouble getting down the long hallway and the bedrooms can remain cold, so considering options to pump more air into that zone of the house.

In Australia heat transfer systems are popular where wood heaters are used. They are essentially a length of duct with an inline fan that draws hot air through and inlet sitting at the ceiling and expels it out one or more outlets at the desired location (s).

My issue is that I cannot legally place a duct inside the masonry chimney.

Option 1 is to place the air transfer duct directly above the heater itself and hope there is enough warm air sitting up there (it's about 85 to 95 up there on a cold day when the heater is cranking).

Option 2 is build a zero clearance enclosure (false fireplace) and move the heater out of the chimney. I could then place a heat transfer inlet within the enclosure that will theoretically get rather warm as there will be radiant heat coming off the heater and the flue. I have consulted an installer about this and, although it's legal in Australia to build a non-combustible enclosure for this insert (using aerated concrete blocks, etc.), he is sceptical that the air in the enclosure will be any hotter than in the room the way it's set up now.

Option 3 is to try to sell the Neo and get a freestanding heater that I know from experience should heat the air at the ceiling enough to transfer sufficient heat to distant bedrooms (had a similar set up at a previous house that worked very well).

Would appreciate thoughts from people, especially people who might have experience with zero clearance set ups and how hot they can get inside the enclosures.
Also open to any other options.

Thanks,

Tom.

 

[stoveliker]

I don't have the experience you ask for.
However, I have two remarks.

1. Pumping air away from directly near the insert/stove is not a good idea. In the US there is building code (legal requirements) that prohibit any air return (sucking up air) within 10 ft of a wood burning appliance.

2. Many people here instead pump cold air from the place-to-be-warmed and deposit that near the stove. This will necessarily be replaced with warmer air.
In your case, a fan, running on low on the floor of the long hall way might help. People here do that.

Regardless, the set up of the home seems to be less ideal to heat everything. In the end wood stoves are space heaters. In good situations one can heat more than that space, but sometimes that just won't work well.

 

[begreen]

Option 1 is to place the air transfer duct directly above the heater itself and hope there is enough warm air sitting up there (it's about 85 to 95 up there on a cold day when the heater is cranking).

Check the local code. That would not be permitted by US mechanical code unless the return grille is at least 10 ft away from the insert.

Option 2 is not permitted. The stove can only go into a masonry fireplace or a UL certified ZC that permits its installation. Home-built enclosures do not qualify.

See Stoveliker's suggestions. Moving cold air toward the heat is often easier and more effective in this situation. If there is a basement, this can be done quite effectively with an insulated duct system under the floor that pulls air from the bedrooms and blow it into the stove room

RE heat output:
How well-seasoned is the firewood? Is the stove baffle properly seated and pinned at the back of the firebox? How is the stove being run to maximize heat output? Where is the air control typically set to once the fire is burning well?

 

[TomMcDonald]

I don't have the experience you ask for.
However, I have two remarks.

1. Pumping air away from directly near the insert/stove is not a good idea. In the US there is building code (legal requirements) that prohibit any air return (sucking up air) within 10 ft of a wood burning appliance.

2. Many people here instead pump cold air from the place-to-be-warmed and deposit that near the stove. This will necessarily be replaced with warmer air.
In your case, a fan, running on low on the floor of the long hall way might help. People here do that.

Regardless, the set up of the home seems to be less ideal to heat everything. In the end wood stoves are space heaters. In good situations one can heat more than that space, but sometimes that just won't work well.

Thanks.
In Australia it's legal to have a heat transfer system and the intake can be as little as half and inch from the flue pipe (which needs to be triple skinned in a case of a free-standing stove).

In our case, unfortunately a bedroom is at the end of the long hallway and we wouldn't be able to situate a fan anywhere along its length.

 

[TomMcDonald]

Check the local code. That would not be permitted by US mechanical code unless the return grille is at least 10 ft away from the insert.

Option 2 is not permitted. The stove can only go into a masonry fireplace or a UL certified ZC that permits its installation. Home-built enclosures do not qualify.

See Stoveliker's suggestions. Moving cold air toward the heat is often easier and more effective in this situation. If there is a basement, this can be done quite effectively with an insulated duct system under the floor that pulls air from the bedrooms and blow it into the stove room

RE heat output:
How well-seasoned is the firewood? Is the stove baffle properly seated and pinned at the back of the firebox? How is the stove being run to maximize heat output? Where is the air control typically set to once the fire is burning well?

Option 2 is permitted in Australia. You can either use a ZC kit that is designed for the heater or construct your own enclosure from non-combustibles. Still curious about how hot the space inside the zero clearance enclosure might get.
In my case I would propose to construct the walls from AAC and sit the stove just outside the existing chimney and brick up the opening.

The firewood is between 10 and 15% moisture. Baffle is seated correctly and pinned in place (I took it apart yesterday to clean the top of it and it didn't have much ash build up).
I usually run the air control at max for 20 minutes then down to half or a bit lower. Lasts about 4 to 5 hours with a large load of wood. Fan is generally set to setting 1.

Thanks very much for your reply.

 

[stoveliker]

It's not relevant how close to the flue one sucks air away. How close to the (air inlet) of the stove is what matters. The stove only works (safely, think CO) if there is a consistent flow of air into the stove and exhaust out of the chimney. Lowering the pressure near the stove hinders the first and has lead to deaths here. Hence our code.

 

[begreen]

Going over the thread, it sounds like the PE Summit would have been a better fit. It projects more out onto the hearth which adds some radiant heat, but also it convects better, even with the blower off. The bigger firebox makes full N/S loading easy, and it burns evenly.

 

[TomMcDonald]

Going over the thread, it sounds like the PE Summit would have been a better fit. It projects more out onto the hearth which adds some radiant heat, but also it convects better, even with the blower off. The bigger firebox makes full N/S loading easy, and it burns evenly.

Thanks. Unfortunately I don't think it's available here.

 

[TomMcDonald]

It's not relevant how close to the flue one sucks air away. How close to the (air inlet) of the stove is what matters. The stove only works (safely, think CO) if there is a consistent flow of air into the stove and exhaust out of the chimney. Lowering the pressure near the stove hinders the first and has lead to deaths here. Hence our code.

Good information, thanks. Assuming this isn't a concern where outside air intake is used?

 

[begreen]

Thanks. Unfortunately I don't think it's available here.

I just took a Google dive down under and see what you mean. The Summit is available in freestanding, but not the insert. I also don't see the PE fireplaces either.

 

[EbS-P]

How tall is the chimney?

It’s just better to move cold air towards the stove and help establish a convective loop. l put a small fan set on low , on the floor at the end of the hallway blowing towards the stove this after 5 hours can raise the temp in the back 3 rooms 4-5 degrees F

 

[stoveliker]

An outside air kit would help indeed, if there is only one air intake. If primary and secondary air have separate inlets, I'm not sure how to connect things safely.

 

[TomMcDonald]

I just took a Google dive down under and see what you mean. The Summit is available in freestanding, but not the insert. I also don't see the PE fireplaces either.

You're correct, I don't think the fireplaces meet our regulations.

 

[TomMcDonald]

How tall is the chimney?

It’s just better to move cold air towards the stove and help establish a convective loop. l put a small fan set on low , on the floor at the end of the hallway blowing towards the stove this after 5 hours can raise the temp in the back 3 rooms 4-5 degrees F

Hi, the chimney is 16.5 feet tall.

I will investigate the fan option again, but unfortunately the master bedroom comes off the end of the hall which is very narrow so there's really no place to put a fan.

 

[TomMcDonald]

An outside air kit would help indeed, if there is only one air intake. If primary and secondary air have separate inlets, I'm not sure how to connect things safely.

I will investigate. The manual seems to allude to only one inlet. I would need to drill a hole into the back of the masonry which should not be an issue.
Thanks.

 

[begreen]

Is there a basement?

 

[TomMcDonald]

Is there a basement?

Not really; the house is built on brick piers and has enough space to crawl around. The floor is dirt. It is enclosed by brick. Running ducting is possible. Do you think it would be better to vent air from the rooms back to the heater?

 

[begreen]

Not really; the house is built on brick piers and has enough space to crawl around. The floor is dirt. It is enclosed by brick. Running ducting is possible. Do you think it would be better to vent air from the rooms back to the heater?

Yes. If there was a basement then I was going to suggest putting a 6x10 grille in each bedroom connected to a 6" insulated duct, then tieing them to a Y and then to an 8" insulated duct with a quiet inline fan that then is connected with an 8" insulated duct to the stove room via an 8 x 20 floor register. This would push cool bedroom air into the stove room and pull warmer air to the bedrooms to replace it. The caveat is that vermin love insulated ducts so unless the crawlspace is safely screened and absolutely critter proof, it probably is a bad idea.

 

[TomMcDonald]

Yes. If there was a basement then I was going to suggest putting a 6x10 grille in each bedroom connected to a 6" insulated duct, then tieing them to a Y and then to an 8" insulated duct with a quiet inline fan that then is connected with an 8" insulated duct to the stove room via an 8 x 20 floor register. This would push cool bedroom air into the stove room and pull warmer air to the bedrooms to replace it. The caveat is that vermin love insulated ducts so unless the crawlspace is safely screened and absolutely critter proof, it probably is a bad idea.

Thanks begreen, interesting suggestion. I will research this more thoroughly.

The area is definitely not sealed well. I'm sure possums and rats could easily get in (we have problems with both and they are very destructive).

Thanks,

Tom.

 

[begreen]

The area is definitely not sealed well. I'm sure possums and rats could easily get in (we have problems with both and they are very destructive).

In that case, all possible entry points need to be screened or sealed. If that is not possible, then encasing the insulated duct in a vermin-proof chase may be the only solution.

 

[Tiffany and Bartholomew]

I’m no expert and have not so much experience, but our home seems to be set up similar to yours.

We live in a single wide mobile home, which is basically a super long rectangle (16’ wide by 80’ long). Our living room and kitchen is open concept, and that’s where the wood stove is.

Maybe it’s the difference between an insert vs freestanding, but all we do is leave the doors open and the two rooms at either end of the house get warm (albeit not as warm as the main room, and it takes a little longer).

Our home is 1,300 sqft about, and our stove is rated for 2,000. We only have one air intake for the stove, and it pulls air from outside the house (which was required by law here for stoves in mobile homes because they’re “so tightly sealed” - not sure where they got that idea, but anyways lol).

We have central air and sometimes once it’s warm we will turn just the fan on (no heating or cooling, just circulating the air). That seems to help those back two rooms when we have to keep the door shut because our cat can’t seem to not eat our indoor plants 😅

Anyway, my not at all professional opinion, I would try to sell it and get a freestanding stove. I don’t have much experience with inserts, but I think freestanding ones seem to put out the heat a bit better.

Oh, and we don’t have a blower. Don’t know if that makes a difference. We do turn the ceiling fan on, that also helps (it goes the “wrong direction,” but that’s okay).

 

[TomMcDonald]

I’m no expert and have not so much experience, but our home seems to be set up similar to yours.

We live in a single wide mobile home, which is basically a super long rectangle (16’ wide by 80’ long). Our living room and kitchen is open concept, and that’s where the wood stove is.

Maybe it’s the difference between an insert vs freestanding, but all we do is leave the doors open and the two rooms at either end of the house get warm (albeit not as warm as the main room, and it takes a little longer).

Our home is 1,300 sqft about, and our stove is rated for 2,000. We only have one air intake for the stove, and it pulls air from outside the house (which was required by law here for stoves in mobile homes because they’re “so tightly sealed” - not sure where they got that idea, but anyways lol).

We have central air and sometimes once it’s warm we will turn just the fan on (no heating or cooling, just circulating the air). That seems to help those back two rooms when we have to keep the door shut because our cat can’t seem to not eat our indoor plants 😅

Anyway, my not at all professional opinion, I would try to sell it and get a freestanding stove. I don’t have much experience with inserts, but I think freestanding ones seem to put out the heat a bit better.

Oh, and we don’t have a blower. Don’t know if that makes a difference. We do turn the ceiling fan on, that also helps (it goes the “wrong direction,” but that’s okay).

Thanks for the info. Sounds like a good set up and is working well.