Install new lopi without liner?

[newbie 08]

Talked to the lopi dealer today and he told me that the new lopis are burning so cleanly that a full stainless liner is not longer needed. They stated that you can and they frequently are just sliding them and using them even if the existing flue was 12x12. Thoughts on this? It would certainly make a new insert more affordable knowing I wouldn't have to pay the extra big chunk for the liner and install, but is this guy correct? Will it still burn effectively and safely?

 

[begreen]

The flue system is half of what makes the stove run. Yes it is that important, especially with the new stoves. Sounds like a corner cutter trying to get in with a cheap installation bid. Try another dealer.

 

[newbie 08]

Just pulled up the owners manual and it says it can be installed this way. It calls it the direct connect method and sounds like a stubby liner that opens into the clay liner with a block off plate being required. (broken link removed to http://www.lopistoves.com/TravisDocs/100-01165.pdf) (see pages 11-12)

 

[thechimneysweep]

Actually, this has nothing to do with how clean a given model might burn. Travis Industries has always allowed direct connection to an existing fireplace terra cotta liner up to 10x14 or 12x12 in all their Avalon and Lopi models. And it has always been a bad idea.

You might get lucky and achieve a good enough draft to enable your insert to function, but it will never function at optimum efficiency without a 6" liner, and you'll be faced with removal of the insert and sealer plate every time you clean the chimney.

 

[webbie]

This post is a good illustration of the differences between "letter of the law" and other practices. Chances are that the same model Lopi (and every other stove) was tested and listed....and legally installed into tens of thousands of chimneys without a 6" liner. Some of them work (probably most of them)....but not in the optimal manner. In many cases, people are happy...they don't know what they are missing!

The most recent NFPA code basically says that if your chimney is:
1. Exterior - then the flue size cannot be over 2x the sq inches of the appliance flue
2. Interior - the flue size can be up to 3x the sq inches of the appliance size.

As to exactly why NFPA made this most recent change, I think......that being a Fire Protection Agency (and not a "stove must work the best" office), that they made it due to the fact that tars and creosotes tend to build up more on oversize chimneys. But that is just a guess....who knows why they make certain (exact) decisions?

 

[jkriebel]

I don't own a Lopi but for 2 seasons I burned a Harmon Exception insert without a full liner. We had a full 6 inch liner installed and the difference is unbelievable. The stove burns much better with the liner. I get longer, hotter, cleaner burns. Starting a fire is much easier too. It worked ok without the liner but with the liner the difference has been amazing. If your insert is being user primarily for looks then you will be ok without but if you plan on using it as a primary heat source you would be foolish not to have the liner installed. Much safer and easier to clean and maintain also. That was what made us get one. It becomes very difficult to clean without the liner.

 

[clkeever]

I believe it depends on how good your draw is to start with: I've seen stoves burn fine with and without liners:

 

[crazy_dan]

all I can say is they didn't make the hole in the top 6" for nothing. The EPA testing and efficiency testing were done with a 6" flue so what you will get as far as efficiency and cleanliness is a crap shoot.