Installer refused to install.................. All the bids, either don't want to insulate, don't wa

[woodsie8]

My stove was scheduled to be installed this Friday. I e-mailed the installer the following e-mail, and then he called and said that he really appreciates and was impressed that I have done so much homework, and at this point, he felt I could install it myself. He was very nice and polite about it. He said he had good relationships with his customers and did not want any problems. He said he would get me the Kaowool if I needed it and even answer questions, if I needed information concerning another persons, install. He basically said, in so many words, I knew too much, asked to many questions and I made him uneasy. I think he was worried I was going to be too picky. the guy was really nice and I am disappointed that he would not work with me. I have had $1200 bids, $2200 bids and $3400 bids. All with different liners and opinions on how it should be done.
Following is the cut and pasted e-mail, as sent.............

(Name); thanks for the estimate and also, answering all my questions. I do look forward to you beginning the job.

I came home to look at my list, and I do have a few more questions; as follows……..

1) Clarification as to “all stainless steel” as in your bid… the website that you had me go to, states galvanized outer layer. So is this "all stainless steel" or not?

2) I am going to pick up some mineral insulation, kaowool, or Roxul. All of them not combustible and used for a “soft block off plate above heatilator holes (to capture some of the insert heat, and above damper. Also use some to put under the top plate/storm collar, and to lay a layer behind the stove like the ceramic blanket to keep heat transfer from the back. I am hoping to find some locally or have it shipped priority mail, to have it before you get here. Is this going to be a problem? As far as labor goes, we are only going to stuff some above the damper, stuff some under top collar and lay a blanket on back of fireplace before insert goes in. I don’t think it will be any big deal. Are you ok, with this?

3) Is the flashing, storm collar, screws, cap and parts, all stainless steel?

4) While you are on the roof, can you take a flash light and look down second flue and just see if there are any nests, dead animals or tons of creosote, in the flue you are not using?

5) Can you describe your warranty for your work? Including if stove gets damaged………

6) Can you tell me how it works if a liner fails? Who replaces it and do I pay to have another install, to get it put in, if under the 25 years?

7) How do you seal the top plate, with RTV 600 degree silicone or what?





Thanks again. I look forward to your response and also working with you.

Kim

 

[R&D Guy]

You know after I read the first 3 questions I though they were only going to get worse (details wise), but I don't think your questions were out of line at all. I think you've got some good ones asking about warranty work and who pays etc.

I don't install units so perhaps most people don't ask any questions. You mentioned him answering all your other questions, have you sent him a lot like this?? I know you had a few on here about Kaowool and it's safety, did you ask him a bunch about that??

One thing installers don't want is call backs (service calls) whether its a finicky consumer, or a poor performing product. Perhaps he though you were the latter of the 2.

 

[Robbie]

To be honest, that letter would make me nervous too..........

It sounds just like me........that is why I end up trying to do most things for myself which is impossible so I have to settle for someone else to do or help do..........and I get to cringe and worry about all the details.

I've learned a few tricks over the years. Don't ask any questions until you get them at your home and already working for a while.............this way you have them obligated to finish.

Try to state questions in a way to not intimidate them or make them feel inferior...........even if you do think you know better or more on certain issues.

I hate to rely on other people but I have to........so I've modified my way of doing things.

You may have to find someone else and not say anything until the job is started.........then guide with your input and hopefully you'll get it done to your satisfaction.

Lots of people might disagree with this method but lots of times it pays to not know much........until you need to.

The questions are great, but IMO you'll be real lucky to get all them answered and everything done to your specs..........if you do, you better give the installer a really nice tip.

In my opinion, it's really hard for me to get jobs done like I hoped for.

Robbie

 

[woodsie8]

Robbie, good advise. I wish I would of talked to you, first If I would of waited till he was here, on Friday...........my fear was he wouldn't insulate, wouldn't provide me with warranty information and I would be stuck. Thanks for the input. I think it sucks that I am paying over $5000 for a job and I can't seem to find anyone that is willing to 1) put a Simpson double insulated liner, with a soft or hard block off plate, insulated top plate and insulation behind the insert. Doesn't seem to much to ask. I have even said I will get all the supplies, liner, etc., if they don't typically use a Simpson products and they can just install............. they flat out have told me they mark up the liner and make several hundred dollars off the liner, so no go, either. If I could lift $500 lbs of stove, I would at this point, try it myself.................. I am about over this................. I only keep going cuz I want my stove in...........

 

[Robbie]

Don't give up on your way of install.

There is plenty of people who want to make the $ and will do almost everything you ask.

Try someone else........


Robbie

 

[brooktrout]

Well, I found this thread quite interesting. Kim, your interest and concern about the installation is not a bad thing. But my wife would describe it as such- you know just enough to be dangerous. I am a collision repair technician, and I have my share of customers who ask lots of questions. They can be put into one of three categories- curious, picky, or pain in the butt. The last thing I want to hear is "Oh, and I've got some of my own parts", or "Can you use X brand of paint instead of your brand?". And one of the worst things- watching you while you work. No one likes that, no matter what the trade. Go read a book, clean a room, whatever. There is a very fine line between those three categories. Try to stay somewhere in the first two . Ben.

 

[woodsie8]

Brooktrout, Let me tell you what happens when you go read a book............ Your brand new hardwood floors have 3 million flying bugs stuck in the varnish cuz you left the house and the technician thought they would save money by not renting the respirators and opening all the windows in May, to dry the floor before I came back to the house. Their solution was taking a credit card, scraping the bugs off the top of the floor, and taking the small paint brush they would leave me, to touch up the spots. That was another $5000 job. Your kitchen pipe leak, ended up with a plumber cutting a hole through the siding to easier access the pipe that was hanging under the kitchen sink. The flood specialists went out of business after they took the insurance money and left half my house unfinished, after a street main water line ruptured and the water people forget to open the hydrant before they turned the water back on, and I had a water hammer slam into my house, blow off my tub faucets and flood my house; before I got home from work.
One, asking for some custom additions like block off plates and insulation, doesn't seem to much to ask.
Two, asking about warranty policies does not seem unreasonable.
Three, if I went into my doctor and didn't expect perfection, I would be a plain idiot.
Four, would you not want to know, who covers the damage if he drops your enamel stove, falls off your roof cuz he does not own a hook ladder and just walks on the roof, or if the liner fails?
I do agree, there is a fine line, but not only in being one of the three mentioned but also getting what you ask for or failed to ask for..........................Like getting it done, correctly............

 

[woodsie8]

Oh ya............ and the same guys that did the floor, when they did the hardwood floors on the stairs to the upstairs................. they loosened the top stair, stood on it, came through the kitchen ceiling below and ripped out the drywall. Their response........... we don't do drywall, you will have to hire someone to fix that. When I called the board to see what I could do, they said the way they handle it, is have the same people come back and fix their errors. I said, "the solution is to have the same people that did not know how to do it right the first time, and are now angry cuz they have to redo the floor and fix a ceiling, come back to my house"? They said yes, that was the solution.
So, Ben............. I have learned not to just trust the technicians cuz they say they are technicians................. No offense..............

 

[begreen]

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one running into bad work. The odd thing is that this doesn't seem relative to cost. I've had bad work done by the lowest and highest bidders. Equal opportunity incompetence I guess. Of course there is the option to not write out a check to these folk without first deducting damages. I ended up documenting one mess in writing and photographs and sending it to the contractor with partial payment. He threatened to sue based on my denying him a chance to fix "issues". I said, go ahead but he was not going to fix issues that he didn't show the competence to do right in the first place. That was the final word.

On the other hand, I've had some great people do work that often are in the middle as far as price goes. Try to find someone with good references and let them do their work. Otherwise, do it yourself. If you don't like the work, don't pay (yourself) .

 

[webbie]

I think the question about who pays if your liner fails in 24 years clinched it!

Some of those questions could have probably been avoided. NO warranty is ever going to cover one dime of labor in 20 years.

Asking them to look down the other flue is better done once they are there, and you establish rapport. You have to handle folks (both sides) with kid gloves and make them WANT to satisfy you as opposed to them perhaps being scared of you.

I have never seen a ss installer use a cap or SC that is not the right thing - but I suppose it is possible. But in some cases, you have to "trust but verify".

My point is only to get some answered for yourself (read warranty, etc.) and keep the questions to a minimum - the things that really count.

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

That's rather unprofessional, IMO.

Personally, I'm rarely the low bidder (I'm also rarely the highest bidder, but that's because I manage my expenses well). I do high-quality work, using high-quality products and extensive planning/engineering to make sure that the job is right... and I charge a price that is commensurate with that.

I'm quite happy to answer "nosy questions" from a customer, because it gives me a chance to explain and demonstrate what value they will be receiving for their money. I can't exactly hand each prospective customer a small novel that explains every detail of the job, which they would never read, anyway. When they ask me the questions that cover the topics which are important to them, I can give them answers which should demonstrate my knowledge and experience, and which will address what that particular customer cares about.

For example, I installed an A/C system for a customer who, on the second day of the install, couldn't stop talking about the composite pad that the outdoor condensing unit sat on. To that individual, that pad was the neatest thing ever, but I would never have even thought to mention that if I were describing the job.

Finding out what each customer cares about and addressing those particular concerns/questions goes with the territory, and is part of what being a professional contractor is about.

Also, when I hand someone a proposal, that's a binding contract as soon as they sign it and check the "accept" box. As long as they pay me as described in the contract, I can't just decide not to show up because I "dislike their attitude" or something. Backing out of a scheduled installation is far worse than just being unwilling to deal with a customer's questions.

Joe

 

[gpcollen1]

It sounds to me like you should have written a brief spec and had folks bid to the spec. You obviously have done your research. In those bids, didn't anyone detail what they were going to install and if they did not, why not? You should have requested that from them.

That installer probably just felt he knows what he is doing and this was becoming too much 'work' just to get to the point of actually doing the work...

The contractor that did my driveway gave me a price on the back of a business card. IT was a good price. I squeezed a contract out of him and even managed to get him to add everything i needed so it was complete. Just the way it is sometimes...

 

[Highbeam]

I am a picky customer. At times even falling towards the "pain in the butt" category depending on the contractor. I don't consider all of these folks as professionals even though they do this for a living. To me, there are professionals and then there are tradesmen.

A doctor is a professional and I expect more from him in the way of explanations and questions. The doctor makes good money and we expect perfect work. The doctor does not "bid" a job. You can be pretty picky here and expect more bonus interaction.

The tradesman works on a small margin bidding a job and performing a task in the minimum amount of time necessary so that he may perform more jobs. They are often not booksmart and are likely put off by emails all together. They are best and most comfortable performing their trades and often lack the patience for dealing with picky customers. If the picky customer asks loaded questions about a 25 year warranty or makes lists of questions that take an hour to answer then you may have just wasted enough of his time to blow his profit. His time taken to answer your questions is "work" time that he is not able to charge you for. Your hand is in his wallet. A little of this is ecpected but there is a cutoff point.

I have found that the typical hearth installed is more of a skilled laborer/tradesman than a professional. The rules of installation are simple. If the install passes inspection by your local juridiction then what more do you need? When these contractors bid the job did you provide the list of items above and beyond the work required to pass inspection or did you spring this on them after the bid?

That would be known as a "bait and switch".

 

[btj1031]

Woodsie - I'm seeing your side of this. OK, so maybe there's lots of questions, but if the installer is a pro, this should not scare him (or her) off. I'm currently going through an ordeal with a contractor myself, one that I never expected to have a problem with and one that has done excellent work for me in the past. Regardless of their skill and commitment to good work, these folks make more money by doing new jobs, not going back and dealing with complaining customers not satisfied with the last job. They have to keep as many balls up in the air as they can at any given time, and as a result, one or two of those balls is going to drop from time to time, and when it does, they generally try to shift the blame or the cost to correct on to the customer. Yes, there are some excellent folks out there that would never do that, and treat every project as if it were their own. But there are certainly many, if not the majority, of contractors that need to be watched with a careful eye because if given the opportunity they will try to take advantage somehow, by cutting a corner, using less expensive materials, dragging out the start or finish of the job so they can take other jobs on, that a smart homeowner needs to ask as many questions as possible and hold contractors accountable. They NEVER forget to cash the check, but sometimes they forget to do a good job, or even what they were paid to do.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Funny thing a long time ago I was told the definition of "Professional" I have copied the meaning from Merriam-Websters online Dictionary
"participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b: having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c: engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>"
One could argue because you get paid to work on something you are a professional.
I have the same issue looking for a new stove armed with info and knowledge from this forum and other sources. The supplier seems to be to be a little drawn back with questions I ask. I have stated its a $4000 investment and want to insure a correct decision is made. I am myself a little uneasy with what seems to be a take it or leave it attitude. Do some suppliers/installers think that most new wood stove owners burn their money like wood and are not expected to ask questions untill a problem arises after the job is payed. I think I would ask the questions and if the supplier/installer does not have anything to hide well its a simple yes or no answer. After all Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware) as the ING commercial goes "it's your money"

true , thats websters definition, but the mindset "professional" as in , "this guy's a pro" is a different connotation. check to see what credentials or certifications (csia, nfi, ETC. ) they may carry,(if they have neither, keep looking). ask for referrances, above all , my idea is this , decide what you want , including materials you wish to use ,and say point blank this is what you want. if they suggest otherwise , ask them to explain why. if that explanation is not making you happy , go elsewhere, but if they have a reasonable countersuggestion, research it and then decide.

 

[woodsie8]

I participate, I am not a bystander. I don't toss money out there and just hope for the best. I make as educated decisions, as possilble. I have been very clear, as to my expectations and desires. I ask a ton of questions. I want to feel confident that this person is going to do the job, that I am paying for, to my expectations. I am paying him, not visa versa. I think that is forgotten, sometimes. I would not drop my classic car off and tell them to paint it, without telling them that I wanted quality materials, what color and how I wanted it designed. I also would make sure they were going to stand behind their work.
I can't imagine running my business like this. I tell them up front, they are my priority. ( Not my ego. ) I ask them what their objective and expectations are. I back everything, 100%, no questions asked. They ask me a ton of questions. I appreciate that. I don't want to be lead down the wrong direction. It does not serve them or me. I am a licenced professional and own a business. I would like to keep my business and not let my ego get in the way. It is their money, their home, their lives, not mine. I should be honored that they chose me to do business with.
Thanks for all the great dialog! I so enjoy this forum and really have learned so much.................... just enough to be dangerous

 

[Highbeam]

Yep, that's the way it should be. However... it is not. Unless the contractor is very hungry he will see your "participation" as a hindrance, an extra part of the job which takes time and has risk. Your participation is taking his profit away in the form of time. Your participation should be maximized up front so the scope of work is crystal clear and then minimized as he performs his trade. Maximized again as you inspect his finished product. Anything else is a good reason for the contractor to bail on the job and cut his losses early on.

I too am a state licensed professional. Not a certified tradesman. Not a teacher either.

I don't like to hire work out but I have recognized that there is a time when it is better to hire it done than to learn how to do it. Making more efficient use of time, money, and a better finished product the first time.

 

[Carl]

I feel your questions and requests weren't out of line. If this guy didn't want to take a few minutes going over his install and your questions I would certainly look for another installer. From your past experiences I certainly don't blame you for your inquisitive mannor. I tend to drill people about many things and if they get nervous I have found out they don't know enough to answer you and maybe do the job. My wife gets mad at me and my questions but I want to know what they know and if they seem competent. Just because one has a liscense by no means says they can perform the work. I hold a builders license and worked for many years in the trade but not anymore. Today you can take a course to pass the builders test with no experience and then go out and bid jobs or get jobs and have subs do the work for lessor money and then collect the profit off others work and efforts. I did sub framing for a few years from one company till I got way underbid by another nearby contractor. I was asked to lower my bid and I told the people to give the other bidder a hug and kiss and accept it. They did and it was on a steep roofed house with many dormers going into winter. I checked on the job a few times and found out they finally went broke from bidding so cheap.

We just had a fireplace top replaced from the roof up and found an un licensed person with good credentials who was willing to do the job. He did an excellent job and was easy to deal with, didn't mind questions, and we would recommend him to anyone. Not so for some of the licensed people around today.

If an installer won't answer your questions and come up with a solution then what kind of a job will he do? This is part of the job which must be addressed.

We just bought a new stove and I paid them to deliver it but not install it. They used a power lift when they were at the door and I asked them if they should be lifting from the bottom of the ash pan and they said that was the only way they could do it. After sitting it on the hearth I checked it over and the ash pan door latch was bent. Every thing else seemed to work ok other than the primary air rod which was missing a clip to hold it on the air vent. I took off the latch and straightened it in the garage, making sure it would work before I signed the delivery slip as ok. You can't compair delivery people to installers but these two did the installations also. Not real impressed with them but too late when they arrived and I didn't care to lift the stove alone.

 

[seaken]

When I was just getting started in this career I have chosen (I was about 25 at the time) I was delivering two stoves to one of our customers. From the time we pulled into his driveway he was barking orders and scrutinizing our every move. It wasn't long before I was upset and said something disrespectful. He blew his top and told me to take these F***** things back! I quickly reconsidered my position and apologized and said I'd do whatever he asked. We managed to save the job and he paid up and we drove away.

Just last month (now nearly twenty years later) I had to sit down with a customer after hours and listen to him complain about my incompetence. I ended up refunding him $600 to settle. He said he had to redo a lot of the work and charged his time at $50/hr and spent a whole day. Plus he charged me back for some pipes he replaced.

Both of these encounters, and many more in the ensuing years, have shaped my approach to doing my work. First, I came to realize that the customer is the boss. Just shut up and do what you're told, if that's what it takes. This is very hard for me to do. I am myself a perfectionist and do exceptional work. I can guarantee you I know more about my trade than any of my customers. I eat and sleep this stuff. I am a true professional. It hurts me deeply when a customer does not respect my ability and knowledge. But that's my problem. I decided if I'm going to stay in this business I have to just ignore the obvious lack of respect I get from many customers who group me in with every other contractor they have ever had to cross swords with.

On the other hand, by far the majority of my clients do respect my professionalism and tell their friends and neighbors. I have learned not to take it too hard when a customer can't be pleased. Most of the time it's not my fault. It's the guys who came before me. And sometimes I can overcome the cynicism and soften the heart of the scorned, creating a client for life.

In the second case, where I ended up giving back $600, it was a case of not communicating. I thought he wanted a basic rough-in and wrote the contract and performed the work with that specification in mind, and in writing. But, as it turned out, he wanted a precise, tight-tolerance, zero-defect custom installation of all the mechanicals. Once I heard his complaints I realized where we had gone wrong. We did not define our terms. He did not understand what a rough-in was and he did not understand what was meant by manufacturers instructions and code compliant, etc. Had I taken the time to define these terms more carefully I would have given him opportunity to react and explain that he wanted more than standard trade practices.

I have since re-worked my installation contract and now have a twelve page questionaire that I go over with all my fireplace customers before we finalize the contract. I am also more careful to explain what IS included in my rate and what is NOT included. I also have my labor rates broken down in more detail, with each add-on being charged as appropriate. Now my customers can choose from my "menu" of services and negotiate a price.

Our deliveries are now carefully explained, complete with a handout, so that our customers know that anything beyond a drop-off in their driveway is extra - BEFORE my crew gets there and have to listen to the customer tell them to take it upstairs and hook it up, when they know damn well they only paid for a drop off.

I think it's okay for us to be able to pick and choose who we work for. If you are going to demand perfection and act as the job foreman you will have very hard time finding an installer who is willing to take you on. Some guys are naturally more easy going and may be more willing to take the heat and scrutiny. But most technicians are not that easy going, we're great technicians and not as good at customer relations. Most of your stove installers come from the ranks of the technicians and are not naturally gregarious and easy going.

Personally, I know what I am doing and would prefer not to instructed by my customer how to do my job. But, I have learned that some folks are very skeptical that I know what I am doing and suspect me of foul play simply because I am a contractor. So, I try to be patient and not take it personally. But it is hard for me and I'm sure I don't always do a good job of hiding my displeasure and talking on the heart of a servant. I am getting better at it. I still remember that experience when I was young and how I almost cost us the sale of two stoves.

A lot of trouble can be avoided by carefully communicating up front. But it's up to the contractor if he wants to take on the job to your specs or not. I think it's okay to pass. Remember, he's been bitten too. He doesn't know you any more than you know him. Heck, every time I take on a job I'm nervous that I have been duped by an unscrupulous con who intends to complain just to get a discount or avoid paying altogether. It works both ways.

Sean