Interested in a Wood Gasification Unit for a Forced Air System

[larry4406]

This is my first post, so all input is greatly appreciated.

My 3000 sf house in northern VA is currently heated by a 80% propane forced air system for the main floor and basement, while the upstairs is heated by a heat pump. We spend about $2000+ each heating season on propane, not sure of the adder for electric heat pump. I have been lurking here for awhile and like the wood gasification systems and am considering one. Retro-fitting radiant floor heating is not do-able as the underside of the floors are all finished spaces and am not interesting in tearing out ceilings or floors. With minimal drywall cutting, I can get access to the furnace and heat pump units for installing water to air coils, although this access would be through unconditioned spaces so freezing of the water lines would be a concern.

I have a large unfinished basement storage room (25x17 with 9 foot ceiling) that could become "the boiler room". This room is on an exterior wall, has walkout access, an adjacent covered area to store a large amount of wood (several cords) under a deck, a clear unobstructive side on the house where a pre-fab chimney could be located (framed in and vinyl sided), domestic water lines, and acces to power for new circuits. This room is on an end of the house, while the existing propane furnace and water heater are in the middle of the basement and the heat pump is in the unfinished attic. I also have a 1500 sf detached garage that has propane heat.

In looking at these systems, they all seem "home brewed" to a certain extent. As a mechanical engineer, the supply/return concept with storage seems rather straight forward to me (I like Nofossil's web site). Before I get too deep with the thought process though, I need to determine the rough order of magnitude (ROM) budget estimate for the various pieces of equipment (wood furnace, new chimney and flue, storage tanks, circulating pump(s), water to air heat exchangers, piping, etc. I am more than compete in electric, plumbing (copper and threaded), and sheet metal skills so the labor part of the ROM can be excluded. I had inquired about a Tarm a few years back but the $6k plus figure back then made it a non-starter. It looks like today, units like the EKO's can be had in the $3-4k range. I even see there is an "econoburn" gasifer reportedly made in the US but no idea on costs - strange that the cost information for these units from the various vendors are not posted - top secret I guess.

Any event, would appreciate your thoughts on the $ involved for a system that would suit my needs. Wood in my area is $150-175/cord so even at $175/cord, that would be almost 11 cords worth of wood compared to my propane bill. Not sure what your experience is, but I would not expect to burn anywhere near 11 chords here in NOVA. So, the pay back should be there even if I didn't cut my own wood.

Thanks,
-larry

 

[Eric Johnson]

Welcome to the Boiler Room, Larry.

You can get by for a lot less with a hot air furnace compared to a wood gasification boiler. There are some clean-burning furnaces on the market, though I don't think they're called gasifiers.

Hard to say what your cost will be above and beyond the price of the boiler or furnace. A hot water system will of course be a lot more. I think I spent somewhere on the order of $5,000 above and beyond the price of the boiler in piping, pumps, heat exchangers, etc., and that was doing all the work myself. But there are too many variables to hazard a guess.

My ROT on most projects is that they'll cost twice what I've budgeted and take four times as long to complete.

 

[stee6043]

I'm not sure where you can get an EKO for 3-4k? I paid just under $7000 for mine this past summer with a few accessories (aquastat, pressure releif and a few others). With two storage tanks, pumps, pipe, pex, fittings, valves, 22' chimney, chase (wood and vinyl sided just as you mentioned) my total project cost is just shy of $15k. I've done 100% of the install myself, with the exception of having a 9" hole bored in my poured concrete basement wall for the chimney. I haven't finished my install yet and I have not yet insulated my tanks. I expect I'll be right at 15k by the time I'm done, if not a shade over. That's my story in 2008 dollars....

 

[rickh1001]

Larry,

There is a forced hot air gasifier available, the Kuuma furnaces out of Tower, Minn. ((broken link removed to http://www.rangenet.com/kuuma/)). There is a thread going in this forum where someone had good results with one. I had checked into them, and they appeared to be excellent. However, I needed the hydronic system in order to supply multiple dwellings. For a single home, these furnaces really stood out as being well designed. Another problem I had was that even last June when I first enquired, they were sold out, and I couldn't get one until Nov/Dec. The Yukon/Eagle and Charmaster furnaces are not gasifiers, but the Kuuma is. The retail price on the "Vaporfire 100" was about $3,400, plus $300 for shipping to NY. Might be worth checking out if you want a "scorched air" solution, rather than hydronics.

 

[pybyr]

I've had wood & oil hot air for 10+ years here and am now putting in a gasifier + storage. At least initially, I will be using a water to air HX to re-utilize my existing ductwork. My old wood/air furnace was great, and still works well (a neighbor just bought it) but it really would not hold a consistent burn for hours on end while I am asleep or away at the day job- which is why I am moving in the direction that I am. Maybe the Kuuma can- I don't have any experience with them, although they look ingenious, indeed. The comments and observations above seem reasonable and consistent with my experience on the amount of effort and cost, although a lot will depend on your details. Only you can decide on the value of a known solution that offers the best option (for overall efficiency comfort and convenience) that I have seen yet to serving my heating needs with a fuel that I can supply myself. these technologies keep improving, so if you wait, you may have even more options.... but in my case, I decided that the fastest way to bring on the "break even day" was to get started

 

[Redox]

I'm not sure where you can get an ECO for $4k either, or I might jump on that. I want one so bad! I am in the same situation here in MD as Larry, but on NG instead of LP. I think anything I do will cost upwards of $10k as the ECO from Cozy Heat start at $6k. I've looked at the Kuuma also, but the Quad is working so well, I think I'll sit tight for a while and see where the technology goes.

Besides, you don't need heat in NOVA, according to BrotherBart! :coolsmile:

Chris

 

[larry4406]

Thanks for the feedback. It appears that I have misquoted the EKO prices, that was stale info still posted on new horizon's website. With my basement fully finished off as it is, I do not have the ability to use an add-on type furnace like the kuma - no space, no internal flue, no convenient way to get wood in. My only options short of tearing my house apart are a piped hydronic system with water to air exchangers in the plenums.

The $15k numbers for a total system are UFB. Assumng $2k/yr in propane, the payoff would be 7.5 years for me assuming all of the wood during that time were free. Perhaps if I were building new, and did not have the money already invested in an existing system, then maybe it would make sense. The E-Classic 2300 from Central Boiler looks interesting, but some of the posts indicate that it has jumped from $8500 to almost $12k - then the costs of piping, heat exchangers, etc, and I am at the $15k number.

No free lunch that is for sure.
-larry

 

[Duetech]

This is my first post, so all input is greatly appreciated.

I have a large unfinished basement storage room (25x17 with 9 foot ceiling) that could become "the boiler room". This room is on an exterior wall, has walkout access, an adjacent covered area to store a large amount of wood (several cords) under a deck, a clear unobstructive side on the house where a pre-fab chimney could be located (framed in and vinyl sided), domestic water lines, and acces to power for new circuits. This room is on an end of the house, while the existing propane furnace and water heater are in the middle of the basement and the heat pump is in the unfinished attic. I also have a 1500 sf detached garage that has propane heat.

In looking at these systems, they all seem "home brewed" to a certain extent. As a mechanical engineer, the supply/return concept with storage seems rather straight forward to me (I like Nofossil's web site). Before I get too deep with the thought process though, I need to determine the rough order of magnitude (ROM) budget estimate for the various pieces of equipment (wood furnace, new chimney and flue, storage tanks, circulating pump(s), water to air heat exchangers, piping, etc. I am more than compete in electric, plumbing (copper and threaded), and sheet metal skills so the labor part of the ROM can be excluded. I had inquired about a Tarm a few years back but the $6k plus figure back then made it a non-starter. It looks like today, units like the EKO's can be had in the $3-4k range. I even see there is an "econoburn" gasifer reportedly made in the US but no idea on costs - strange that the cost information for these units from the various vendors are not posted - top secret I guess.

Any event, would appreciate your thoughts on the $ involved for a system that would suit my needs. Wood in my area is $150-175/cord so even at $175/cord, that would be almost 11 cords worth of wood compared to my propane bill. Not sure what your experience is, but I would not expect to burn anywhere near 11 chords here in NOVA. So, the pay back should be there even if I didn't cut my own wood.

Thanks,
-larry

Hi Larry,
From your sq ft description it sounds like an EKO60 would be right for you. I run the 40 model with air but currently without storage. Grab one that you can get for the price you have listed. I purchased mine in 06 at 5k and did the install, pex, pumps and etc. at $6.5k. The pre-fab chimney I already had or I would have gone up to 7k. The thread mentioned earlier about tweaking your eko is a good read worth visiting. When my planned atmospheric storage, though most prefer pressurized, is in place my greatest anticipated single cost will be copper coils in the tank. After that will be the building I have to build to store both the boiler and the tank though I still expect to be below 10k when finished with it all. Innovation and choice will dramatically influence your over all expenses. Since you already have space for storage your determination's will be more in line with what is suitable for you. With out storage I typically get a 10 hour winter burn until the mercury goes down to around +10f. I only heat 1.7 sqft w/dhw sidearm. My savings for propane for dhw is about $65 per month (w/old pilot light technology) so do not discount this application and re-coupe in your setup analysis.
With my set up, primary boiler only loop and a secondary service loop, I am plumbed to allow one pump to run the whole system in my two pump system in case one pump fails. My secondary pump runs 24-7 via manual aquastat bypass switch. That would allow you to keep your questionable lines from freezing. Best to you...

 

[stee6043]

As far as your 7.5 year payback, Larry, think about temperatures too. I'm in nearly the same boat as you but the difference is I will be keeping my house a good 5-7 degrees warmer when the EKO goes live. So while my payback would exceed 5 years if I were to continue living at a very chilly NG fueled 65 degrees, I bet I'm closer to 4-5 years when I factor in a cozy 70-71 wood fired degrees. Just some food for thought...