Interesting Article About Smoke/EPA Certification

[Caw]

Natural but deadly: Huge gaps in US rules for wood stove smoke exposed

The government spent millions subsidizing new wood heaters supposed to burn more cleanly. But an investigation has discovered critical flaws.

www.ktoo.org

What do you guys think of this? Seems a little over the top to me. Lots of claims being made.

Is that @BKVP ???

 

[Shrewboy]

EDIT: Begreen mentioned that the specific weather conditions in certain areas cause smoke to hang around in the valley where the town is located, which causes a dense sickening fog of wood stove smoke when people burn damp wood. I was not aware of this when writing this comment originally.

This seems totally ridiculous to me, my EPA certified stove burns so cleanly (even when burning wood at 20% moisture content) that there is no visible smoke at all, any catalyst stove should burn that cleanly.

"wood stoves emit more particulates than a coal power plant" LOL what?! is that true?

I don't understand what they are trying to say here - they show a picture of some structure emitting thick smoke - that isn't a catalyst wood stove burning seasoned wood.

The regulations set in place for the new EPA stoves are pretty good and strict IMO, I don't know what else they want?
If people are burning garbage in their 1985 wood stove billowing smoke and polluting the air, then the police / EPA should fine them. It is that simple, don't try to ban wood stoves because some people cut corners.

"Switch to another source of fuel" No thanks! I will continue burning wood instead of contributing to the war and chaos in the middle east through using more oil.

 

[Bad LP]

This seems totally ridiculous to me, my EPA certified stove burns so cleanly (even when burning wood at 20% moisture content) that there is no visible smoke at all, any catalyst stove should burn that cleanly.

"wood stoves emit more particulates than a coal power plant" LOL what?!

I don't understand what they are trying to say here - they show a picture of some structure emitting thick smoke - that isn't a catalyst wood stove burning seasoned wood.

The regulations set in place for the new EPA stoves are pretty good and strict IMO, I don't know what else they want?
If people are burning garbage in their 1985 wood stove billowing smoke and polluting the air, then the police / EPA should fine them. It is that simple, don't try to ban wood stoves because some people cut corners.

"Switch to another source of fuel" No thanks! I will continue burning wood instead of contributing to the war and chaos in the middle east through using more oil.

... "then the police / EPA should fine them. It's that simple"...

Are you for real or just a part time chimney smoke inspector? Maybe some people can't afford to dump 3-4 thousand bucks into a certified stove and liner.

Personally I want less .gov in my life. Not more.

 

[MongoMongoson]

The average temperature in Fairbanks is single digits below zero to about 10 above from November through March. Nice weather for having big plumes of water vapor created by a clean burning stove.

Even people who burn wood stoves get confused or at least question whether they are making smoke or steam.

Bad LP makes a good point. I started burning wood because I could not afford to pay for oil while paying for my education. My stove was from 1981, not 1985. And yeah, it made a lot of smoke. I never once felt bad about that, except when burning red elm. That stuff stinks when it burns.

I am in a better spot financially now. So now I burn a modern stove and like seeing no smoke coming out of the stack, but I acknowledge that the hardware requirements to burn wood cleanly put that hardware out of reach, and really, unjustifiable financially for many people.

 

[gthomas785]

Everyone knows that the main reason (most) people burn wood is because they're either cheap or poor and don't want to drop $10k+ on a new stove, liner, hearth, and a big woodshed to dry their wood for 3 years. Most folks on this site are the exception, not the rule. It takes money to burn cleanly.

Blaming stove manufacturers for smoke pollution is just absurd. The ones that survived have done a phenomenal job keeping up with the EPA requirements. The problem is not with the new stoves, but the old ones. When I drove around my town and I see all the old houses with old/unlined chimneys belching smoke and uncovered/rotting wood piles out back I can guarantee you they are not burning a modern stove.

If you want to get serious about getting rid of old stoves, offer a trade-in with subsidized incentives. The tax credit is a good start but doesn't go nearly far enough imo. If you paid people enough to trade in their smoke dragons, the stoves would be mostly replaced in a few years.

But even that would not go far enough. There also needs to be an education campaign. How many times have I heard "EPA stoves suck, they don't produce any heat" or "I wanna burn green wood and this stove won't let me". People get stuck in a rut, they get used to a way of doing things and don't want to change. Why should I wait 3 years for my wood to season when I used to be able to burn it straight away? The message about the benefits of dry wood and clean burning has been drowned out by people shouting about either how the EPA has killed woodburning, or how wood stoves are going to give their kids developmental issues. If you ask me, all that noise could be replaced with news about how wood is a renewable, carbon neutral energy resource that can also be clean if you just dry it properly and burn it in a modern stove. /rant

 

[begreen]

John Ackerly sent out a thoughtful commentary to the readers of his newsletter. I am not sure if it is ok to print it here without his permission. In it, he notes that the issue is complex and the report, while informative, is not as damning as it sounds. There is room for improvement in testing consistency and standards. All parties need to continue work cooperatively in this regard. More importantly, the EPA needs to have the resources to shut down the worst offenders that now burn smoldering old stoves with impunity due to the lack of enforcement of current pollution laws.

IMO, the 25C tax credit would do more good if the bar were raised to 73 or even 70% HHV. The 2020 generation of stoves are remarkably clean burning. There needs to be more incentive to upgrade and a bigger stick on those the continue to pollute their neighborhoods with old smoke dragons burning wet wood.

 

[Shrewboy]

... "then the police / EPA should fine them. It's that simple"...

Are you for real or just a part time chimney smoke inspector? Maybe some people can't afford to dump 3-4 thousand bucks into a certified stove and liner.

Personally I want less .gov in my life. Not more.

True and I agree! in my area lots of people use wood stoves and I usually only smell smoke faintly on damp days, so I find it hard to believe that the issue is THAT bad from wood stoves alone in Fairbanks, there must be more to the this story

But at the same time, if it really is effecting people that have breathing problems, it is a legit issue that can't be ignored. Maybe an investigation would uncover that there is another source of pollution / underlying issue causing bad air quality. I am in favor of balance and compromise, there is a 26% rebate on EPA stoves for 2021, so maybe that will help to incentivize people to get new ones

 

[begreen]

so I find it hard to believe that the issue is THAT bad from wood stoves alone in Fairbanks, there must be more to the this story

There is, geography and weather. Fairbanks has mountains surrounding it and the area is prone to temperature inversions that trap the pollutants at ground level. We have a similar situation here between the Olympic and Cascade mountain ranges. Some areas like Darrington, WA are particularly bad hit because like Fairbanks, their town is set in a valley between high mountains. A dozen or more old smoke dragons there smolder away burning damp wood filling the valley with a sickening fug. As noted in the article, the offenders are not hard to spot, but there is no enforcement of pollution regulations so these stoves burn away, 24/7, regardless.

 

[MongoMongoson]

John Ackerly sent out a thoughtful commentary to the readers of his newsletter. I am not sure if it is ok to print it here without his permission. In it, he notes that the issue is complex and the report, while informative, is not as damning as it sounds. There is room for improvement in testing consistency and standards. All parties need to continue work cooperatively in this regard. More importantly, the EPA needs to have the resources to shut down the worst offenders that now burn smoldering old stoves with impunity due to the lack of enforcement of current pollution laws.

I realize some regions or states have laws regarding old stoves. I am not aware of any here. As a matter of fact I can open burn logs and yard waste pretty much whenever I want to, and that is worse than the smoke dragon I just replaced.

I do not want the federal government coming around enforcing state laws.

I imagine things are different here, where I am listening to the wind rip across the fields on the other side of the highway.

The constant drizzle in the winter in the Pacific NW seems like it would cool smoke and trap it close to the ground.

 

[begreen]

I realize some regions or states have laws regarding old stoves. I am not aware of any here. As a matter of fact I can open burn logs and yard waste pretty much whenever I want to, and that is worse than the smoke dragon I just replaced.

I do not want the federal government coming around enforcing state laws.

I imagine things are different here, where I am listening to the wind rip across the fields on the other side of the highway.

The constant drizzle in the winter in the Pacific NW seems like it would cool smoke and trap it close to the ground.

Yes, windy flat landscapes see less of this problem. Actually, it is not the rain here. Temperature inversions often occur on cold clear days when warm air aloft traps cold air at ground level. The much drier Great Salt Lake valley is a classic example of where this happens in the states. Libby Montana is another. Temperature inversions don't just happen in winter. They can be deadly when they occur during wildfire season.

 

[BKVP]

Natural but deadly: Huge gaps in US rules for wood stove smoke exposed

The government spent millions subsidizing new wood heaters supposed to burn more cleanly. But an investigation has discovered critical flaws.

www.ktoo.org

What do you guys think of this? Seems a little over the top to me. Lots of claims being made.

Is that @BKVP ???

Yes that is me.

 

[BKVP]

EDIT: Begreen mentioned that the specific weather conditions in certain areas cause smoke to hang around in the valley where the town is located, which causes a dense sickening fog of wood stove smoke when people burn damp wood. I was not aware of this when writing this comment originally.

This seems totally ridiculous to me, my EPA certified stove burns so cleanly (even when burning wood at 20% moisture content) that there is no visible smoke at all, any catalyst stove should burn that cleanly.

"wood stoves emit more particulates than a coal power plant" LOL what?! is that true?

I don't understand what they are trying to say here - they show a picture of some structure emitting thick smoke - that isn't a catalyst wood stove burning seasoned wood.

The regulations set in place for the new EPA stoves are pretty good and strict IMO, I don't know what else they want?
If people are burning garbage in their 1985 wood stove billowing smoke and polluting the air, then the police / EPA should fine them. It is that simple, don't try to ban wood stoves because some people cut corners.

"Switch to another source of fuel" No thanks! I will continue burning wood instead of contributing to the war and chaos in the middle east through using more oil.

That is steam. They are using excess or waste energy from the coal fired power plant to dry wood in a massive new kiln. Wood burners are reporting fantastic performance improvements using the kiln dried wood.

Face it, if everyone would get a year or two ahead in their wood storage (done properly of course) we could significantly reduce particulates. Also, just an aside, our site member in Fairbanks @Poindexter was also interviewed by the same reporter.

 

[Shrewboy]

That is steam. They are using excess or waste energy from the coal fired power plant to dry wood in a massive new kiln. Wood burners are reporting fantastic performance improvements using the kiln dried wood.

Face it, if everyone would get a year or two ahead in their wood storage (done properly of course) we could significantly reduce particulates. Also, just an aside, our site member in Fairbanks @Poindexter was also interviewed by the same reporter.

I dropped the ball, I read the article too quickly and didn't notice the caption on that picture

 

[BKVP]

The average temperature in Fairbanks is single digits below zero to about 10 above from November through March. Nice weather for having big plumes of water vapor created by a clean burning stove.

Even people who burn wood stoves get confused or at least question whether they are making smoke or steam.

Bad LP makes a good point. I started burning wood because I could not afford to pay for oil while paying for my education. My stove was from 1981, not 1985. And yeah, it made a lot of smoke. I never once felt bad about that, except when burning red elm. That stuff stinks when it burns.

I am in a better spot financially now. So now I burn a modern stove and like seeing no smoke coming out of the stack, but I acknowledge that the hardware requirements to burn wood cleanly put that hardware out of reach, and really, unjustifiable financially for many people.

Specifically in the Serious Non Attainment area, the replacement stoves were paid for by the Borough. So if you live on the edge of the area, you get no incentive. If you live within the defined boarders, the incentives were up to $4,000 at one time.

The current incentive is...wait for it.....$10,000 if you surrender ANY wood or pellet burning appliance and install an, electric or gas heater within the borders of the nonattainment area. If you accept the $10,000 you sign binding agreements to never burn another solid fuel device of any kind and when you sell the home, the buyers assumes they same as condition of sale.

 

[BKVP]

John Ackerly sent out a thoughtful commentary to the readers of his newsletter. I am not sure if it is ok to print it here without his permission. In it, he notes that the issue is complex and the report, while informative, is not as damning as it sounds. There is room for improvement in testing consistency and standards. All parties need to continue work cooperatively in this regard. More importantly, the EPA needs to have the resources to shut down the worst offenders that now burn smoldering old stoves with impunity due to the lack of enforcement of current pollution laws.

IMO, the 25C tax credit would do more good if the bar were raised to 73 or even 70% HHV. The 2020 generation of stoves are remarkably clean burning. There needs to be more incentive to upgrade and a bigger stick on those the continue to pollute their neighborhoods with old smoke dragons burning wet wood.

@begreen, did you read all 98 pages. NESCAUM is urging that only stoves on the "Alaska list" be eligible of ANY tax credit or changeouts. So if your stove is 74% or lower, it won't matter. ADEC has to approve your stove and then you still have to be 75% or higher. This is an incredibly complex matter.

 

[BKVP]

There is, geography and weather. Fairbanks has mountains surrounding it and the area is prone to temperature inversions that trap the pollutants at ground level. We have a similar situation here between the Olympic and Cascade mountain ranges. Some areas like Darrington, WA are particularly bad hit because like Fairbanks, their town is set in a valley between high mountains. A dozen or more old smoke dragons there smolder away burning damp wood filling the valley with a sickening fug. As noted in the article, the offenders are not hard to spot, but there is no enforcement of pollution regulations so these stoves burn away, 24/7, regardless.

That is not accurate. There is enforcement. They write NOV's (Notice of Violation) cites every day. Ask @Poindexter. He knows how they drive around day and night with cameras and take pictures and notify violators. Again, very, very complex issue with so many folks having a NOASH (No other source of heat). They can continue to burn. And, as wood stoves outside the nonattainment area burn (some dirtier than others) that smoke settles in the bowl you correctly portrayed. Outside the borders, there is no enforcement.

There are monitors throughout Alaska. Look at this! You think this builder, clearing land, surrounded by homes, knows who will get the blame for all that PM? This was my picture, taken outside the front windshield of my rental car. Not a stock image!

 

[begreen]

Yuck. It's a bad situation. Fireplaces are another major contributor. Drive-up through Darrington in winter and see how much enforcement is going on. I can say the same for our community, nada. There simply isn't enough staff in the state to do this.

 

[Caw]

IMO, the 25C tax credit would do more good if the bar were raised to 73 or even 70% HHV. The 2020 generation of stoves are remarkably clean burning. There needs to be more incentive to upgrade and a bigger stick on those the continue to pollute their neighborhoods with old smoke dragons burning wet wood.

Is there any incentive available for these folks to get a pre 2021 epa stove? For example, my Osburn 1600 that I purchased in 2020 is rated at 4.4 gm/hr and while that doesn't meet the new 2021 standards it's light years ahead of an old smoke dragon or OWB. I have no visible smoke 98% of the time, just when reloading or cold starting. There must be a glut of these modern but not hyper modern 2021 stoves out there at a discount and if they were incentivized and allowed to be installed I bet it would help.

Obviously dry wood is key but just thinking out loud. As someone mentioned earlier, it's easy to forget that folks on the forums here are the minority and lots of people don't understand how to burn properly, can't afford to change systems, or plain just don't care.

I got the $300 credit for my stove, not the new one of course, but I got a big discount on the sale price knowing it wasn't going to be able to be sold here anymore so I was ok with it. This is one of the few inserts that fit my fireplace and I didn't want to risk waiting for a 2021 model that fit or run my electric heat for a year...would have cost way more than I gained from the tax credit to save 3 gm/hr.

 

[BKVP]

Is there any incentive available for these folks to get a pre 2021 epa stove? For example, my Osburn 1600 that I purchased in 2020 is rated at 4.4 gm/hr and while that doesn't meet the new 2021 standards it's light years ahead of an old smoke dragon or OWB. I have no visible smoke 98% of the time, just when reloading or cold starting. There must be a glut of these modern but not hyper modern 2021 stoves out there at a discount and if they were incentivized and allowed to be installed I bet it would help.

Obviously dry wood is key but just thinking out loud. As someone mentioned earlier, it's easy to forget that folks on the forums here are the minority and lots of people don't understand how to burn properly, can't afford to change systems, or plain just don't care.

I got the $300 credit for my stove, not the new one of course, but I got a big discount on the sale price knowing it wasn't going to be able to be sold here anymore so I was ok with it. This is one of the few inserts that fit my fireplace and I didn't want to risk waiting for a 2021 model that fit or run my electric heat for a year...would have cost way more than I gained from the tax credit to save 3 gm/hr.

There are no wood to wood upgrades taking place. But let me expand as to how absurd this program has been. Sit by the fire with a drink there in Mass and laugh.

When the stove changeout program began, it was run by the local Borough. The incentive was $2,500 if you gave up a pre EPA (smoke dragon) stove and got an EPA approved model. Then within a short span of a few years, the incentive was increased to $4,500 if you got a 2020 stove. (2.0 or less or 2.5 or less cordwood tested). So you could and people did get $2,500 for an EPA stove, then 2 years later get another $4,500 to turn in the stove they were just "given" and upgrade to a 2020 model.

Now, they'll give you $10,000 to dispose of that 2020 wood or pellet stove. So over the span of less than 8 years or so, you could get up to $17,000.00

The irony is the first several years, the program permitted cash and carry sales. Hey, I'm all about saving money, but as everyone here knows, the chimney is engine that makes the stove run. There was ZERO oversight to make certain the stoves were installed correctly. Many of the still worst offenders (example the lady in The Guardian article cited as habitual offender) is running a stove on 11' of chimney. Draft play a huge role in emissions. SO does species of fuel, but draft being so variable, it cannot be accounted for in a test lab. (Or at least it's not permitted in the test method)

Keep in mind as well, in the interior, people can heat 9 months of the year, not 4-5 like in the lower 48 or even other parts of AK.

So if you didn't spit up the bourbon laughing, finish your drink....and stay well!

 

[Caw]

That is crazy. It makes me wonder whether they really want to effect change or not. Seems like bandaid after bandaid...why not make up their mind and really stick to it/enforce it? Is it a manpower/money issue?

I live in a woodsy part of my suburb and burn properly so my neighbors are very happy but you bet your ass I'd have major issues with the town/neighbors if I were running a smoke dragon on an 11' chimney all day every day.

No worries about the bourbon, I've got plenty more to reload with as I burn cleanly!

 

[BKVP]

That is crazy. It makes me wonder whether they really want to effect change or not. Seems like bandaid after bandaid...why not make up their mind and really stick to it/enforce it? Is it a manpower/money issue?

I live in a woodsy part of my suburb and burn properly so my neighbors are very happy but you bet your ass I'd have major issues with the town/neighbors if I were running a smoke dragon on an 11' chimney all day every day.

No worries about the bourbon, I've got plenty more to reload with as I burn cleanly!

View attachment 276674

You should think about it from this perspective....No one, I mean no one, walks up to a door in Fairbanks, knocks and starts talking about too much smoke. That and Montana are risky places to try that.

But, the dealers and customers are now required to "register" their wood stove with the state of AK. They are building a database of new wood stove purchasors.

FYI, go get some I.W. Harper.......

 

[Caw]

You should think about it from this perspective....No one, I mean no one, walks up to a door in Fairbanks, knocks and starts talking about too much smoke. That and Montana are risky places to try that.

But, the dealers and customers are now required to "register" their wood stove with the state of AK. They are building a database of new wood stove purchasors.

FYI, go get some I.W. Harper.......

Fair point about approaching folks. Guns are borderline taboo where I live (including with my wife sadly...I like to shoot skeet and bird hunt) so it's very different. I use my dad's gear these days.

I usually have much better stuff on hand but I'm due for a trip to the liquor store. This is what I use to make whiskey sours. Better than no Bourbon!

 

[coaly]

Yes that is me.

That Blaze King mask in front of the stove in a pollution article; priceless

 

[Poindexter]

A couple things here.

One: Large scale power plants typically have teams of operators with training and supervision operating in shifts. My local university, UAF, just built a new power plant, starting with a clean sheet of paper, designed to function with the not very high quality coal from the coal mine about 125 miles down the railroad track from campus. It has a "fluidized bed" of sand, a bunch air blowers, runs on coal that is crushed down to smaller than golf ball sized lumps and was sized by an engineer spefically to meet the current and proposed future power needs of the entire campus. That bigger burners have custom engineering is a small leap.

Certainly older coal burning power plants are scary by today's standards.

Two: I am relieved to see I wasn't quoted in that article. I think what I read is the truth and nothing but the truth, sadly not the whole truth.

Not many years ago during a local election it was decided by a majority of voters in the North Star Borough (like a county with Fairbanks as the seat) that the borough assembly did not have the authroity to regulate air quality. So enforcement fell to ADEC, Alaska Dept of Environmental Conservation. Instead of enforcing laws, ADEC starting having meetings so they would not have to knock on doors.

Were you somewhere on College Road for that bad burner pic @BKVP ? It looks like you were facing north, probably not on Farmer's Loop Road, but ther houses in your pic are way too big to be on all the permafrost in that area unless we got some new idiots in town with more money than sense.

 

[BKVP]

A couple things here.

One: Large scale power plants typically have teams of operators with training and supervision operating in shifts. My local university, UAF, just built a new power plant, starting with a clean sheet of paper, designed to function with the not very high quality coal from the coal mine about 125 miles down the railroad track from campus. It has a "fluidized bed" of sand, a bunch air blowers, runs on coal that is crushed down to smaller than golf ball sized lumps and was sized by an engineer spefically to meet the current and proposed future power needs of the entire campus. That bigger burners have custom engineering is a small leap.

Certainly older coal burning power plants are scary by today's standards.

Two: I am relieved to see I wasn't quoted in that article. I think what I read is the truth and nothing but the truth, sadly not the whole truth.

Not many years ago during a local election it was decided by a majority of voters in the North Star Borough (like a county with Fairbanks as the seat) that the borough assembly did not have the authroity to regulate air quality. So enforcement fell to ADEC, Alaska Dept of Environmental Conservation. Instead of enforcing laws, ADEC starting having meetings so they would not have to knock on doors.

Were you somewhere on College Road for that bad burner pic @BKVP ? It looks like you were facing north, probably not on Farmer's Loop Road, but ther houses in your pic are way too big to be on all the permafrost in that area unless we got some new idiots in town with more money than sense.

@Poindexter....that was in Homer!