Is my fireplace really unusable?

[Biggie747]

We just bought a 1903 craftsman with two fireplaces and I had a reputable company inspect the flues for the fireplaces. One fireplace in particular we're trying to get into working order as it's a 7' wide field stone fireplace in a beautiful den. It's basically the center piece for the house. We're not looking to actually heat this house using it, but we want to have fires in there for ambiance when people are over.


This company, after several days of back and forth email conversations, has basically told us that the fireplace is unusable and a rebuild would basically be $50K. The reason is that the flue is too small for the opening. For those that want to do the calculations, it's a full arch opening and the dimensions are 47.5"W and 34"H. Using the 10:1 rule I came out to needing a flue with the area of 137sq.in. or basically just over 13" tube. I don't know the current flue size but they also tell me that the flue liner that they would have to put in the unlined chimney would only be like 6".


Here's my questions:

1. I found a site that builds full arch doors custom built to size for a "reasonable" price. With vents at the bottom, couldn't we get the doors and still have fires with the 6" flue? The vents in the door would control how much air the fire could get, right?

2. This fireplace is from 1903 and I think it's fair to assume that it was used to heat the house along with the other one back in the day. If the flue, which I'm assuming is 8" to fit a 6" liner, is nearly two times too small then how have they not choked out the house with smoke this whole time?
Basically, it blows my mind that the fireplace is unsafe to use and that we'd "smoke out the house" if we were to use it when it's clearly been used.

3. I know smoke can eat away at the mortar in the unlined chimney. But, how long does something like that take? Can we use the fireplace until we purchase and install the doors, which would be closer to this fall? I don't know if it makes a difference, but the chimney is encased in a wall from the fireplace to the chimney. It's still unsafe for carbon monoxide, but we have another layer stopping it from entering the living spaces and would ventilate between uses.

Any help would be great...
Thanks

 

[bholler]

We just bought a 1903 craftsman with two fireplaces and I had a reputable company inspect the flues for the fireplaces. One fireplace in particular we're trying to get into working order as it's a 7' wide field stone fireplace in a beautiful den. It's basically the center piece for the house. We're not looking to actually heat this house using it, but we want to have fires in there for ambiance when people are over.


This company, after several days of back and forth email conversations, has basically told us that the fireplace is unusable and a rebuild would basically be $50K. The reason is that the flue is too small for the opening. For those that want to do the calculations, it's a full arch opening and the dimensions are 47.5"W and 34"H. Using the 10:1 rule I came out to needing a flue with the area of 137sq.in. or basically just over 13" tube. I don't know the current flue size but they also tell me that the flue liner that they would have to put in the unlined chimney would only be like 6".


Here's my questions:

1. I found a site that builds full arch doors custom built to size for a "reasonable" price. With vents at the bottom, couldn't we get the doors and still have fires with the 6" flue? The vents in the door would control how much air the fire could get, right?

2. This fireplace is from 1903 and I think it's fair to assume that it was used to heat the house along with the other one back in the day. If the flue, which I'm assuming is 8" to fit a 6" liner, is nearly two times too small then how have they not choked out the house with smoke this whole time?
Basically, it blows my mind that the fireplace is unsafe to use and that we'd "smoke out the house" if we were to use it when it's clearly been used.

3. I know smoke can eat away at the mortar in the unlined chimney. But, how long does something like that take? Can we use the fireplace until we purchase and install the doors, which would be closer to this fall? I don't know if it makes a difference, but the chimney is encased in a wall from the fireplace to the chimney. It's still unsafe for carbon monoxide, but we have another layer stopping it from entering the living spaces and would ventilate between uses.

Any help would be great...
Thanks

I would be very surprised if a fireplace and chimney that was over 100 years old was safe to use. There are likely many safety issues with it. Lots of homes by 1903 had some central heating or atleast stoves for heat. Building a house meant to be heated with an open fireplace would have been very uncommon at that time. And the dimensions given would not have been used if it was meant to be a source of heat. Some pics might help

 

[SteveKG]

Who'd you find to build the arched doors? I haven't done much research yet, other things going on, but we'd like to plan ahead for our 36" wide by 36"-to-top-of-arch opening.

 

[bholler]

Who'd you find to build the arched doors? I haven't done much research yet, other things going on, but we'd like to plan ahead for our 36" wide by 36"-to-top-of-arch opening.

There are quite a few custom places that do it. But they aren't cheap at all

 

[Biggie747]

I would be very surprised if a fireplace and chimney that was over 100 years old was safe to use. There are likely many safety issues with it. Lots of homes by 1903 had some central heating or atleast stoves for heat. Building a house meant to be heated with an open fireplace would have been very uncommon at that time. And the dimensions given would not have been used if it was meant to be a source of heat. Some pics might help

That's actually good to know. I assumed that back in that period that they would have been used as a heating source. Which lead me to be more optimistic that the ratio was at least decent for a fireplace that size.

 

[Biggie747]

Who'd you find to build the arched doors? I haven't done much research yet, other things going on, but we'd like to plan ahead for our 36" wide by 36"-to-top-of-arch opening.

If you google "full arch fireplace doors" and switch to the image view, you'll see proper full arch doors every few images. There are a few options. But like bholler said, they aren't cheap. Starting price on one was 1600 and after I gave it the dimensions to my fireplace it was well over 2500. Another set from another company started at over 3k.

We're willing to get the doors and get the liner installed if it means that we could use it. I just don't know if that's even an option.

 

[DAKSY]

Who'd you find to build the arched doors? I haven't done much research yet, other things going on, but we'd like to plan ahead for our 36" wide by 36"-to-top-of-arch opening.

www.stollindustries.com

 

[Biggie747]

www.stollindustries.com

I didn't see any full arched fireplace doors on that site. But here's what I've found so far.

Full Arch Twin Fireplace Door – Northshore Fireplace

“Made in America by True Craftsmen” This is but one example of the many fireplace doors available through Northshore Fireplace. Each of the manufacturers we represent builds products that fit properly, are long lasting, stylish and above all provide good value for the homeowner. Not every door...

northshorefireplace.com

or

Full Arch Masonry Wood Burning FIreplace Glass Door

The Full Arch Masonry Fireplace Door is precision manufactured with quality material to your exact specifications! Many customizations available. Free shipping!

www.fireplacedoorsonline.com

 

[begreen]

Picture please

 

[DAKSY]

I didn't see any full arched fireplace doors on that site. But here's what I've found so far.

Full Arch Twin Fireplace Door – Northshore Fireplace

“Made in America by True Craftsmen” This is but one example of the many fireplace doors available through Northshore Fireplace. Each of the manufacturers we represent builds products that fit properly, are long lasting, stylish and above all provide good value for the homeowner. Not every door...

northshorefireplace.com

or

Full Arch Masonry Wood Burning FIreplace Glass Door

The Full Arch Masonry Fireplace Door is precision manufactured with quality material to your exact specifications! Many customizations available. Free shipping!

www.fireplacedoorsonline.com

Industrial Fireplace Doors | Industrial Collection | Stoll Industries

The industrial fireplace doors feature an appealing blend of raw metal, exposed welds and grind marks, custom handles and a double pane “Factory Window”.

www.stollindustries.com

 

[Biggie747]

Picture please

Attached is a quick photo of the fireplace in question. Yes, if you look carefully you will see that the back (right of center) needs to be repaired.

I really just would like to know if it's absurd (from a professional's point of view) to try to do doors with a 6" flue liner. To a consumer (me), it's a small liner but with doors it drastically cuts down on the draft that's allowed and seems like a doable fix. Thoughts?

 

[ctyankee]

A few thoughts:
Why do you want doors?

I assume this is a one and half storey house?

Is the chimney made of stone top to bottom? If so any idea as to its wall thickness?

The firebox to flue ratio may be a problem, but if this build works then it works. You'd have to use to find out.

In my opinion, it may be possible to repair the firebox as needed and do some version of a pour in liner. I know of 18th C chimneys that have had pour in and work fine and are safe --- especially if use will be occasional and an open fire, as opposed to a wood stove.

Doing a 6" liner, doors etc, not to mention $50,000 rebuild is a bad idea all the way around. Btw all sweeps, chimney companies will say and unlined flue is unusable, does not matter the condition. It's against code.

 

[ctyankee]

Also, did they do a camera inspection of flue. You can do your own amateur attempt as well.

 

[ctyankee]

And I forgot to say that is a beautiful fireplace. I'd bet the chimney is built like a tank if all stone. Stone chimneys hold up much better than brick, as a general rule.

 

[bholler]

A few thoughts:
Why do you want doors?

I assume this is a one and half storey house?

Is the chimney made of stone top to bottom? If so any idea as to its wall thickness?

The firebox to flue ratio may be a problem, but if this build works then it works. You'd have to use to find out.

In my opinion, it may be possible to repair the firebox as needed and do some version of a pour in liner. I know of 18th C chimneys that have had pour in and work fine and are safe --- especially if use will be occasional and an open fire, as opposed to a wood stove.

Doing a 6" liner, doors etc, not to mention $50,000 rebuild is a bad idea all the way around. Btw all sweeps, chimney companies will say and unlined flue is unusable, does not matter the condition. It's against code.

Attached is a quick photo of the fireplace in question. Yes, if you look carefully you will see that the back (right of center) needs to be repaired.

I really just would like to know if it's absurd (from a professional's point of view) to try to do doors with a 6" flue liner. To a consumer (me), it's a small liner but with doors it drastically cuts down on the draft that's allowed and seems like a doable fix. Thoughts?

The chimney clearly already suffers from poor draft as indicated by the heavy staining above the firebox. Downsizing it would make it not work at all doors or not.

And all sweeps will tell you that unlined chimneys are unsafe because that has been proven to be true over and over again. Yes you can get away with using one untill you don't. And the older it gets the higher the chance of something going wrong.

If the condition of the firebox is any indication of the condition of the flue (which it usually is) it is extremely unsafe to use.

 

[ctyankee]

Decades of use will create some soot no matter how well it functions. Good lord maybe ole' grandpa used only green/wet wood one winter. Think about it. Find another company for sure. You can't put a 6" liner down this and expect it to function. Look into a pour/coat/seal for the flue, keeping the flue close to original size as possible. And leave firebox same size. But I would absolutely have a camera inspection before anything else is done. Sweeps DO NOT LIKE open fireplaces. Period. There is no money in them. Inherent conflict of interest in the industry.

 

[bholler]

Decades of use will create some soot no matter how well it functions. Good lord maybe ole' grandpa used only green/wet wood one winter. Think about it. Find another company for sure. You can't put a 6" liner down this and expect it to function. Look into a pour/coat/seal for the flue, keeping the flue close to original size as possible. And leave firebox same size. But I would absolutely have a camera inspection before anything else is done. Sweeps DO NOT LIKE open fireplaces. Period. There is no money in them. Inherent conflict of interest in the industry.

No decades of use will not make soot staining on the face of a fireplace if it is working properly. What would make you assume that?

And what would make you say sweeps don't like open fireplaces. We makes lots of money working on them.

You are making lots of assumtions that are not true.


Do you know how thick the material needs to be inorder to do poured liners? Stainless reduces the flue volume the least ammout of anything on the market.

What would the benifit of a camera inspection be? We already know it is unlined.

 

[ctyankee]

All the OP needs to do is light this fireplace up with some nice dry wood to find out, but since you've put the fear of God him that he'll burn his house down, he can't even do that.

You've ASSUMED the fireplace is unsafe to use.

 

[bholler]

You've ASSUMED the fireplace is unsafe to use.

No didn't assume a thing. The chimney is unlined. It clearly leaks allot of smoke. The firebox and hearth floor are in horrible shape. All of that adds up to the fireplace being unsafe.

 

[ctyankee]

I disagree. Put a fireback in that. Remortar, replace loose stones. Put a bed of ash down and there you go for a test run. But I would ideally want a camera inspection of flue. Unlined stone chimneys can be very safe. At least as built in colonial New England. Craftsman period may be a different story. Personally I would like to know what flue looks like.

 

[bholler]

I disagree. Put a fireback in that. Remortar, replace loose stones. Put a bed of ash down and there you go for a test run. But I would ideally want a camera inspection of flue. Unlined stone chimneys can be very safe. At least as built in colonial New England. Craftsman period may be a different story. Personally I would like to know what flue looks like.

Disagree based upon what information?

A fireback in a firebox shaped like that will push the fire forward pretty far making the smoking worse.

 

[Biggie747]

ctyankee - The company did do a pole camera inspection. I haven't seen the pics and don't have access to them. I'm also getting a second opinion. Again, I do trust the company that did the inspection. However, it also seems like they're treating this fireplace the same way as if you brought an older car to a dealership for repairs. By the time they're done explaining things you think you're driving a death trap. But you bring it to another mechanic and they basically go "Na, it just needs blah and you're fine."
Also, at one point you asked about the chimney, it's actually 3 stories tall. It's a "2.5 story" house.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not looking for patchwork fixes or bandaids here. This is my family in this house and I certainly don't want anything to happen to them. I'm just doing my best to exhaust all of my options before we condemn the thing.

bholler - You bring up very valid points. I know that the thing needs a bit of a facelift. The hearth and extension for instance look like they were done by a mason apprentice that never came back to properly finish the job or something. Besides the spot I pointed out in the firebox that needed work, what else about it tells you it's in bad shape? Keep in mind I'm legitimately asking, not challenging you.

One thing that I don't believe I've mentioned is that we're renovating this entire house over the course of like 10 years. Besides the facelift needed on the fireplace, I was wondering if there was another fix for the flue. I'll be exposing the chimney from the fireplace to the roof at one point or another in the remodel. If I left it exposed in each of the rooms and find a time to remove the entire chimney, can I have someone install a metal flue? Is that a thing? Would I then be able to wall it in? If I reinforced the roof would I still be able to do like a faux chimney top (like just one layer of brick)?

Thanks again for all of your input.

 

[bholler]

ctyankee - The company did do a pole camera inspection. I haven't seen the pics and don't have access to them. I'm also getting a second opinion. Again, I do trust the company that did the inspection. However, it also seems like they're treating this fireplace the same way as if you brought an older car to a dealership for repairs. By the time they're done explaining things you think you're driving a death trap. But you bring it to another mechanic and they basically go "Na, it just needs blah and you're fine."
Also, at one point you asked about the chimney, it's actually 3 stories tall. It's a "2.5 story" house.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not looking for patchwork fixes or bandaids here. This is my family in this house and I certainly don't want anything to happen to them. I'm just doing my best to exhaust all of my options before we condemn the thing.

bholler - You bring up very valid points. I know that the thing needs a bit of a facelift. The hearth and extension for instance look like they were done by a mason apprentice that never came back to properly finish the job or something. Besides the spot I pointed out in the firebox that needed work, what else about it tells you it's in bad shape? Keep in mind I'm legitimately asking, not challenging you.

One thing that I don't believe I've mentioned is that we're renovating this entire house over the course of like 10 years. Besides the facelift needed on the fireplace, I was wondering if there was another fix for the flue. I'll be exposing the chimney from the fireplace to the roof at one point or another in the remodel. If I left it exposed in each of the rooms and find a time to remove the entire chimney, can I have someone install a metal flue? Is that a thing? Would I then be able to wall it in? If I reinforced the roof would I still be able to do like a faux chimney top (like just one layer of brick)?

Thanks again for all of your input.

I didn't think you were challenging me at all you are looking for real info here so you can make an educated decision and ask the pros the right questions.

Yes given enough budget you certainly could eliminate the chimney and replace it with a prefab one. And yes you could build a masonry faced chase above the roof line.

 

[Rickb]

Have you considered putting in a stove or insert attached to a insulated liner and blockoff plate? might be a bit more up front cost but you will lose a lot less heat from the house and can still get some good fire view from them.

 

[Biggie747]

Have you considered putting in a stove or insert attached to a insulated liner and blockoff plate? might be a bit more up front cost but you will lose a lot less heat from the house and can still get some good fire view from them.

Yeah, I've looked into them. It would, in the end, be cheaper than most of the other things that I was thinking of doing. The thing is that I'm trying my best to save the fireplace itself. The only issue I saw with an insert, and correct me if I'm wrong in this, but I haven't found an insert for full arch fireplaces. This means it will have to be a rectangular one and I would lose a lot of the size. The only up side to this route is that this fireplace is already pretty good size so it'd still be a decent size fire.