Jøtul F 118 CB Black Bear
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rsgBJJburner said:
There are a few here that have/had them. I've never heard a negative report about them. I'm sure a few owners will chime in at some point this evening and let you know what to look for when buying used.
Search for "Jotul F118" and you'll see. I for one urge caution in selecting this stove. There are better choices out there.
I'd love to hear why you don't like it. I really am interested! I have done searches on Jotul F118.
precaud said:
precaud said:
I searched and went back five years. I found two negative reports. You and a poster named larryhollenb (and his wasn't all that negative). I also checked the ratings area and didn't find any negative comments. If there is a negative or an issue about the stove how about you let the guy know what the problem is.
Any stove will give off heat and make it's owner warm and happy if they put wood in it and light a fire. Any EPA stove will burn cleanly. But that doesn't make it a good stove. I am merely encouraging everyone who is considering the F118 to take a dispassionate look at it and know what they are buying.
When it first came out, as an enthusiast (to say the least), I was very intrigued by it, based largely on the positive memories I had of it's predecessor, the old 118 (I had a 118 for a couple years back in '85 or so and it was a good stove in it's day.) I encouraged two friends (one local, one not) to buy and install F118's and soon regretted it. Both were heating 1000 sq. ft. or less. One lasted a week, the other about a couple months, before they were pulled and replaced. For such a large, heavy stove, it's heat output was very disappointing. The local user replaced it with a Regency of lesser btu rating and was very happy.
Let's cut through the marketing BS Jotul puts into this stove. "Incorporating Jøtul's new Crossflow™ non-catalytic secondary combustion system and our legendary front-to-back "cigar burn", this stove is the pinnacle of clean burn efficiency and maximum burn time."
1. So what is the "Crossflow™" secondary combustion system? It is a series of stainless steel tubes that encircles the firebox. Nothing revolutionary. It is an overly complicated system, and it will be expensive to repair/replace when it needs maintenance. Not if.... when.
2. "Legendary front-to-back "cigar burn." The problem is, the F118 doesn't burn that way. Unlike the old 118 (which did), the F118 is designed to burn the entire load at once. It's difficult to get these very elongated N/S firebox geometries to burn through a load cleanly enough to meet EPA stds. (the Morso 1B is another example.) The air from the front inlet and glass airwash can not reach the back of the stove, and it smoulders. So that's why there are air inlets at the bottom rear of the stove. It burns from both ends at once.
3. "this stove is the pinnacle of clean burn efficiency and maximum burn time." This is complete BS and the pinnacle of misleading marketing. Yes, it meets EPA. But for it's size and weight, the F118 probably has the shortest burn time of any stove on the market.
So I think this stove has many qualifications that the potential buyer should consider.
: Most important, does the stove geometry and radiation pattern (mostly to the sides) compliment your installation?
: Wood must be cut 18-20" long, 3-4" diameter. You're not going to get long burn times out of small-diameter wood. Ain't gonna happen.
: The firebox (and the door) is only 7" wide and about the same height. You can't put large pieces of wood in it.
: Do you like a nice view of the fire? The F118 fire view is nice, IF you are laying on the floor in front of it...
: Cast iron firebox liners hold heat where you don't want it.
: Do you like a stove that never gets very hot for very long? It is a large, heavy stove with a small (about 1 cu. ft.) firebox. It is designed to "hold" heat, not radiate it efficiently. You burn small, hot fires and then it cruises at low temp while it burns down the coals.
: The specs are wildly optimistic. A 1 cu. ft. firebox giving 60,000 btus/hr and heating a 1800 cu. ft. space? Not on this planet. Calculate the btus available from the weight of wood per load and you'll see, it's impossible.
Is it a stove that embodies the best technologies of the day? No. The F118 is a marketing play on a sentimental favorite, the old 118. They took a stove that was one of the last century's favorites, added massive cast iron liners, a small piece of glass for the view, and an overly complicated air system grafted onto it to make it meet emissions standards.
So that's why I say, for most people, there are much better choices out there.
Besides, why would you want to support a manufacturer who will twist the facts to get you to buy something?
When it first came out, as an enthusiast (to say the least), I was very intrigued by it, based largely on the positive memories I had of it's predecessor, the old 118 (I had a 118 for a couple years back in '85 or so and it was a good stove in it's day.) I encouraged two friends (one local, one not) to buy and install F118's and soon regretted it. Both were heating 1000 sq. ft. or less. One lasted a week, the other about a couple months, before they were pulled and replaced. For such a large, heavy stove, it's heat output was very disappointing. The local user replaced it with a Regency of lesser btu rating and was very happy.
Let's cut through the marketing BS Jotul puts into this stove. "Incorporating Jøtul's new Crossflow™ non-catalytic secondary combustion system and our legendary front-to-back "cigar burn", this stove is the pinnacle of clean burn efficiency and maximum burn time."
1. So what is the "Crossflow™" secondary combustion system? It is a series of stainless steel tubes that encircles the firebox. Nothing revolutionary. It is an overly complicated system, and it will be expensive to repair/replace when it needs maintenance. Not if.... when.
2. "Legendary front-to-back "cigar burn." The problem is, the F118 doesn't burn that way. Unlike the old 118 (which did), the F118 is designed to burn the entire load at once. It's difficult to get these very elongated N/S firebox geometries to burn through a load cleanly enough to meet EPA stds. (the Morso 1B is another example.) The air from the front inlet and glass airwash can not reach the back of the stove, and it smoulders. So that's why there are air inlets at the bottom rear of the stove. It burns from both ends at once.
3. "this stove is the pinnacle of clean burn efficiency and maximum burn time." This is complete BS and the pinnacle of misleading marketing. Yes, it meets EPA. But for it's size and weight, the F118 probably has the shortest burn time of any stove on the market.
So I think this stove has many qualifications that the potential buyer should consider.
: Most important, does the stove geometry and radiation pattern (mostly to the sides) compliment your installation?
: Wood must be cut 18-20" long, 3-4" diameter. You're not going to get long burn times out of small-diameter wood. Ain't gonna happen.
: The firebox (and the door) is only 7" wide and about the same height. You can't put large pieces of wood in it.
: Do you like a nice view of the fire? The F118 fire view is nice, IF you are laying on the floor in front of it...
: Cast iron firebox liners hold heat where you don't want it.
: Do you like a stove that never gets very hot for very long? It is a large, heavy stove with a small (about 1 cu. ft.) firebox. It is designed to "hold" heat, not radiate it efficiently. You burn small, hot fires and then it cruises at low temp while it burns down the coals.
: The specs are wildly optimistic. A 1 cu. ft. firebox giving 60,000 btus/hr and heating a 1800 cu. ft. space? Not on this planet. Calculate the btus available from the weight of wood per load and you'll see, it's impossible.
Is it a stove that embodies the best technologies of the day? No. The F118 is a marketing play on a sentimental favorite, the old 118. They took a stove that was one of the last century's favorites, added massive cast iron liners, a small piece of glass for the view, and an overly complicated air system grafted onto it to make it meet emissions standards.
So that's why I say, for most people, there are much better choices out there.
Besides, why would you want to support a manufacturer who will twist the facts to get you to buy something?
Thanks for the input guys-
My idea is not to have this stove as a work horse. I'm looking to get something to install so my buddy and i can have something to fiddle with while we drink beers after a long week of work.
Hanging outside next to a fire pit is ok every once in a while, but it just seems like a better idea to be able to do that in the house and maybe even add to the heat a little bit.
My idea is not to have this stove as a work horse. I'm looking to get something to install so my buddy and i can have something to fiddle with while we drink beers after a long week of work.
Hanging outside next to a fire pit is ok every once in a while, but it just seems like a better idea to be able to do that in the house and maybe even add to the heat a little bit.
Well the F118 will definitely do that job. Enjoy it. Hopefully, you can get it for cheap.rsgBJJburner said:
BTW, there's an easy way to know if it is a new or old "black bear." If it has an all-metal front door with circular air control, it's an old one and has no secondary system.
precaud said:
What do you think is overly complicated about the tubes / secondary combustion system? Do you think it would require more maintenance than other stoves, and if so, why? Other than that, like you said in your opening sentence, and I agree -- it gets warm and makes the house warm, and that's good.
Adding burn tubes in this stove changed the way it burns and not in the best way according to the post. There's nothing wrong with secondary burn tubes. Though I have read that in this stove there have been some warping and alignment issues with the secondary rack that should be noted. I don't know if Jotul has addressed this or not.
precaud is a bit of a scientist about this stuff (in a good way) He's has done a fair amount of testing on several stoves and has posted some intriguing results. I think the point is, that for the price, you might just want to look at some other stoves which will be fine for weekend burning, but that will give you a better burn and fire view to boot.
That said, he's not a big fan of the new 602CB either and I personally know local folks that absolutely love the little stove. So take any opinion given here with a grain of salt.
precaud is a bit of a scientist about this stuff (in a good way) He's has done a fair amount of testing on several stoves and has posted some intriguing results. I think the point is, that for the price, you might just want to look at some other stoves which will be fine for weekend burning, but that will give you a better burn and fire view to boot.
That said, he's not a big fan of the new 602CB either and I personally know local folks that absolutely love the little stove. So take any opinion given here with a grain of salt.
jeffee said:
Long, thin tubes suspended out in extreme heat will warp over time. All perforated-tube secondaries will do this, but the way it's built, the F118 system is more vulnerable than most.
EDIT: I see BG has just made the same point...
precaud said:
I gotta say, the load door and req wood size has not changed since the "good old" 118 you spoke fondly of earlier... and your view of the fire now has a view of the fire because the old 118 has a solid cast door, and the new one has the glass (albiet, small). You may not like it, and I'm not saying it does not have its issues (we took back a couple of the first production runs, but since they have been fine), but you are twisting a few facts here, too.
summit, in those statements, I wasn't comparing 118 to F118, just stating some facts, and some important implications of those facts.
precaud said:
If deciding on not purchasing a product from a manufacturer based on their over blown marketing statistics we would have to avoid nearly every stove manufacturer. I understand having experience with a product can produce a valuable opinion, but to say to avoid the manufacturer is a bit much considering how well the rest of the product line holds up.
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