Jotul 118B Can I Use Durarock, then slate tile??

[tbags]

I am installing a Jotul 118B into an existing fireplace
The manual wants 3/8 asbestos mill board, which I assume is for insulation from floor joists
I assume asbestos is unavailable and illegal to use nowadays.
What do you use these days instead of asbestos...
Durarock?

Also, I need to lower the stove a bit, (I need to cut a couple inches of the legs) right now there is about 10" of clearance beneath the stove. I asked the Building Inspector about this, and he said they go only by the manual, that they don't have any codes to go by.

Since the manual does not state minimum clearances for beneath the stove..Is it likely that I can cut the legs without getting an B.S. from the inspector???
Any and all help appreciated....THANKS

 

[elkimmeg]

couple of issues here. First of all I doubt the inspector is bsing , when he applies manufactured tested and listed specs

If you cut the legs and provide certified engineering and testing I'm sure your inspector will take that. Without that , nobody know the changed requirements,
for hearth requirements because the space changed. Also the stove is designed and tested for the alloted distance to dissipate heat correctly Changing that distance requires approved engineering and testing to coinfirm if the stove will opperate in its intended safe range. Now if Jotul has a short leg kit and done this engineering and testing you may be able to cut those legs and provide the listed hearth protection required for a short leg kit or better yet purchase the short leg kit Maybe Jotul has a a tested heat shield option you might be able to use to help with thermal protection?

What you are calling BSing is you attempt to alter the design without tested approvals and asking an untested installation approval because you modified it.

So the inspector is BSing because you modified it unapproved? and he wants to adhere to the listing? Who is Bsing who?

On the flop side you are asking the inspector to approve a stove that has to be modified to fit you location what if he ask they why not purchase a stove that can legally be installed.

IT's not like that is the only model stove or only manufacturer your choice may not have been the best for that installation ,it is quite unfair to ask the inspector to make an equally bad decision

 

[tbags]

Well, I don't suspect anyone is BSing anyone, but I was just asking about if the stove could be lowered, withOUT him having an issue.
The reason I asked him outright, is cuz I don't want any issues with the inspector OR the stove.

I asked him about cutting the legs, he just said they go by the clearances in the manual. They don't have specific codes.
And he seemed unable to give me any answer.

But the manual does not specify anything for underneath, except 3/8 asbestos mill board.
I need to get it about an inch or so lower, 2 at the most, depending on how thick the hearth ends up.

As it sits now, the legs are about 10" long, so I would want to bring them to about 8-1/2 inches.

I understand, about the engineering, and how modifying it could change things. It is likely that to have an engineer look at it, test it, and certify it would cost more than a new stove, or more than just burning oil, and frankly I can't afford to do that. (that's why I want to burn wood this year, my financial situation has taken a bad turn in recent months)
So an engineer seems to be out of the question.

I AM currently trying to find out if they make a short-leg-kit for the stove. So if anyone knows about that, hopefully they can point me in the right direction.
THANKS

 

[KeithO]

Maybe you should barter your too high stove for a shorter one that was designed to be operated like that in the first place. Those stoves are really better off on a completely non combustible hearth like brick or concrete. "modern" stoves have heat shields built in to make them more instalation friendly. The 118 is really intended for "retro" folks who have the right infrastructure (non combustible hearth) to accept it.

I'm guessing you are thinking of lowering it because of space constraints on the chimney ? AFAIK that stove can vent out the top or the back. Have you investigated both options ?

No matter how desperate the financial situation seems, having your house burn down and potentially killing yourself or others will look a lot worse than what you are facing now.

 

[tbags]

no, this one vents out back or side, manual wants 3/8 asbestos mill board under it.
So was considering Durarock, and possibly 1-1/2 bluestone or brownstone on top of that, or else slate on the durarock

Of course don't want a house fire, that's why I'm investigating this.
It is not looking too hopeful, someone coming to inspect my chimney today.
But maybe I will be out of luck (and 350 bucks) with this one

 

[nshif]

Is this a masonry fireplace you are installing into? Or a zero clearance metal fireplace?

 

[tbags]

masonry fireplace

 

[KeithO]

Whats the need to shorten the legs for ? Will the front part of the stove be overhanging the front of the hearth ? I recall it is quite a deep narrow stove. Is the hearth raised or flush with the floor ? All these things affect possible solutions.

 

[tbags]

well, I have to extend the hearth, I am hoping I can do a flush hearth.
As it stands now, the pipe outlet is about an inch higher than the top of the fireplace opening.
I am told even a slight down angle on the pipe going into the fireplace is not a good thing.
So even with a flush hearth it is a little higher than the fireplace

 

[nshif]

So you are not putting the stove inside the fireplace but on the hearth in front of it?

 

[tbags]

well, maybe back it in part of the way...However I can do it so it works, and it is safe is good for me

 

[nshif]

Can you post a pic ot where you plan this install? What does the hearth consist of now?

 

[tbags]

how do I post a photo?

 

[nshif]

See
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/6/#95159
for how to post pics

 

[elkimmeg]

Don't get me wrong I am not trying to bust your chops Hot air rises it does not go down hill unless forced and a wood stove is not a forced draft
Also a level connector pipe is not good as well at level it must be pitched upward the more pitch the better.

I want to help you get it right makes no sense to install a stove bound to fail to deliver.

 

[tbags]

pic was too big, so, I'm tryin to modify it now

 

[tbags]

ok, see if this works

 

[tbags]

Hey Pyro Extrordinaire...
I know you are not trying to bust me.....
But that's what I figure...Heat rises.. so shouldn't the 8" of clearance under the stove be sufficient with a decent hearth underneath? there will be about 8" clearance AFTER I cut the legs

 

[nshif]

Dont try to beat the system you will only lose. If you cut the legs there may be a problem, The reason they dont specify a bottom clearance is because of the leg height. better to opt for saftey. So lets look at options.
1 that hearth isnt gonna cut it as far as what i see. Looks like tile over subfloor.
2 how high up does the brick go avove the picture? maybe an option there
3 Is there a top outlet on the stove?

 

[tbags]

nope, just a back and side outlet, both at the same height.
The brick goes up at least 18 inches above the opening. (it looks like that's where it stops, maybe another inch or so more than that)

 

[tbags]

yes, it is tile embedded in mortar, about3/4 inch thick all together.

 

[nshif]

Well if you rebuild the hearth, to the joists with preferably micor or durorok and keep it as low as possible ( remove the subfloor ) and put a 90 or a tee on the rear outlet and go verticle up 2 feet then 90 to a wall thimble and core drill the masonry into the flue .... it could be done. you may have to extend the brick work up a bit and extend the hearth out
I just dont see a way to do it through the fireplace with that stove.
Perhaps youd be better off with a small insert.

 

[webbie]

Issues and possible answers....

That particular stove does have very high legs. NFPA addresses "generic" stoves with legs taller than 6" and specifies certain hearth requirements for such stoves - this is the LEAST of the NFPA requirements, the more stringent being for stoves with 4-6" or 2-4" legs.

As far as codes and testing, it just might be that Jotul tested that stove with shorter legs and may even sell the shorter legs - this was true with other Jotuls. The only way to know is to get a hold of the exact manual - which should be able to be found.

If one was to toss out the manual (figuratively) and classify the stove as "generic" - which in general is applied to antique stoves, etc - then NFPA specs would apply. Assuming you cannot get the manual or other proof of short legs, your inspector would then have to "accept" NFPA clearances - at HIS or HER option.....it is their call, in other words.

Even with 8" legs, all of us are concerned about what looks like a "flush" hearth that may have little, if any, R value. Only by looking carefully in the crawl space or cellar would you be able to tell how deep the hearth goes - my assumption is that it is deeper than one tile, but one member here recently (in the last week) told us of taking apart a hearth like yours and seeing completely charred beams! So this advice is not far-out. That said, the fireplace itself is MUCH more dangerous than the stove on 8" legs is...this fellas beams were charred by the fireplace, not by a stove.

There are also the issues of clearances to the walls on the side to take into account - this again will be addressed in the manual or in NFPA if you cannot find the exact situation in the manual.

Now onto very general advice - not to do with code, but with reduction of heat, etc. - a heat shield mounted underneath the stove - like from brackets attacked to the leg bolts....would vastly retard downward radiation. This stove may already have one since it is the UL model?

And as far as Hearth extension, etc - Micore would seem to be roughly equiv. to the asbestos generally called for - 1/2" of Micore does a nice job, and then can be capped by 1/2" of cement for rigidity and then tile, etc. for style.

Please keep in mind (I'm sure you are) that this is all general advice from afar - and take it for what it is worth. You have a sweep and an inspector, so it sounds like you are on the right track.

One thing, though - don't assume radiated heat does not go down! The Sun radiates the earth, and any sunburn will disprove that theory. Go to a warehouse like 84 lumber with those handing radiant heaters 20 feet up in the air, and you will feel them through the cold air......the type of radiant heat we are talking about coming off the single wall bottom of a cast stove does not care about up or down........it is like "rays", not convected (air) heat.

Attached NFPA guidelines show 2" of masonry plus sheet metal, which has much less R-value than Micore, etc.

 

[elkimmeg]

Craig does any one know if this poster can get a manual or can other posters know of this model manual if we could read it and applie it the situation would become clearer

 

[webbie]

Most Jotul dealers who have been so for many years should have an old notebook binder on the shelf with the old manuals. I know Woodmans has all the parts for these, but probably not the manual - they don't sell manuals. Lehmans Hardware has been selling these for a long time, so that might be a lead.

I will try to scan a manual next time I go down to Preston (they invited me to their thousands of pounds of old manuals and literature)...but that will be too late for this one.

This is a TOUGH time of year to try to get anything out of local dealers....I know my email is piling up, let alone the papers on my desk....and it has not even gotten cold yet.