Jotul system 18 -fixing

[woodfire]

Hi,

I have a Jotul system 18 which is a wood fireplace insert. An inspector noted "possible corrosion" in the original liner (8" SS) so they jammed a smaller 7" dia. liner (corrugated SS) inside it. The new liner is friction fitted and there is a small amount of airspace between the old one and new one. I don't like this and now fires seem to emit smoke into the room -total height is about 10 1/2 ft from cone to top. Is the liner too small? How much would it cost (ballpark) to rip out the original liner (there are granite stones and morter up to the top and all around) and replace it with a new one. The unit is about 21 years old. Or do I just use the original one? How do I see if "possible corrosion" is "actual corrosion"


Thank you in advance

 

[Gooserider]

Welcome to the forum Woodfire, I don't know your exact system, hopefully some of the Jotul fans can help out with the specifics, but here are some generic questions....

What is the size of the Jotul's flue collar? If it's 8" then it probably isn't good to be going into a 7" liner, but if it's 6" then there shouldn't be a problem.

Is this an interior or exterior chimney?

Is the 8" liner cast into the chimney, or is it lining a yet bigger clay lined masonry flue? If it's cast in, you are definitely looking at a major and expensive teardown of the entire chimney, however if it's just a liner in the flue it won't be that terrible - you would be looking at the cost of the liner (which won't be cheap, 8" liners cost far more than 6") and installation - The installation will be somewhat higher to cover the cost of removing the old liners. My wild guess would be something in the 2-3K range.

If the 7" liner is loose you might be able to slide it out and get a 2nd opinion on the 8" but if it's a friction fit this will be hard to do without damage.

Two things I would look at is to make sure that all the connections are sealed and tight, particularly the stove-pipe junction, and to consider trying to increase your chimney height a bit - 10.5 feet sounds more than a bit on the short side of what is generally considered desirable.

Gooserider

 

[webbie]

The system 18 was a cast iron firebox which was, as I remember, enclosed 100% with masonry and then fitted into various types of chimneys - I think an 8" ID insulated, although there may have been a single wall connector.

I think the first order of business is to dig up a manual for this unit. A long-time Jotul dealer should have one of these around, as they often have old Jotul dealer notebooks which contain this. Maybe stoveguy13 (here on the forum) can find one in his Jotul materials.

The total height of the chimney is VERY marginal, and then by cutting the flue size down it is resulting in lack of draft. In general, a minimum of 14 feet total from the top of the unit is required for good draw.

The "possible" corrosion sounds like he may have just been covering his arse...and therefore caused further problems! Not saying it isn't possible, but in such a short chimney it should be possible to determine whether or not corrosion is actually there.

So I would first get a manual just so I had the reference.

Then you have to make a decision as to whether you want to have the liner pulled and the chimney inspected better - or extend the chimney a few feet and see if that improves the draft.

Here is a modern version of the same type of fireplace built-in by Jotul:
(broken link removed to http://www.jotul.no/content/products/ProductArticle____242.aspx)

 

[woodfire]

Gooserider, Craig,

Fist off I should clarify that the System 18 is not an insert perse but rather is part of a fireplace that was built "from the ground up" based on the System 18 Installation and Operating Instruction manual which I do have a copy of.

The flue collar is larger than the new liner that was dropped in because this new 7" liner fits snugly around the inside of the collar but the small gap that does now exist is not sealed in any manner. I suspect the collar is around 7 1/2 " dia. This has us concerned that creosote may find its way between the old and new liner.

The chimney is interior and of the fieldstone type. I believe the original 8" liner is cast but I am still waiting to hear back on that.

The new liner was pulled down with nylon rope from the interior so I suspect that it could be removed without too much difficulty.

The Jotul install manual specifies a minimum chimney height of 14 ft and up to 50 ft. It does not specify where the height measurement is taken from. I measured 10 1/2 ft from the flue collar up to the top.


Just wondering, is there some method of repairing a liner that has corroded rather than replace it? I am thinking of the scenario where this old liner may be cemented in and the cost of a major teardown?

Thanks for all the help!

 

[webbie]

I sold and installed a number of system 18's, including one as a display in my store - but it's been a long time! I seem to remember that it was completely masonry enclosed BUT used a stainless steel class A double wall chimney. Jotul may have supplied various adapters so it could be installed either in an insulated round metal (class A) or possibly tied into a masonry flue - although I don't remember the 2nd instance.

Assuming it is a round chimney, and corrosion was suspected - that points to a 8" ID stainless insulated chimney. This may be evident by the top of the chimney (is an orange terra-cotta liner visible) - or is the chimney and cap round?

I still would guess that the smoking is more a result of the chimney not be high enough, and aggravated by the liner being reduced. Chances are that the original flue size was metric...may have been in the range you mentioned (7.5").....

But the advice remains.....the chimney should be measured from the flue collar of the stove, and yours does not meet that standard. It may have worked before, but that was luck.

 

[SAABMaven]

I sold and installed a number of system 18's, including one as a display in my store - but it's been a long time! ...

Good Morning!

Might you have installed ours? This is in Ripton, Vermont. We purchased our house early this year and have the same smoking problem. The doors have to be closed, even with a very hot fire. The glass blacks up in about a day and has to be scraped.

This stove doesn't radiate much heat and I'm looking for a way to improve its efficiency. Other than the aforementioned problems, I really love it and would like to save it if possible; unfortunately two different chimney firms came in and gave estimates in the thousands of dollars without indicating that it might address the problem itself.

The flue liner was replaced shortly before closing, as a result of a past chimney fire which was discovered during house inspection.

Does anybody have a link to an old Jotul System 18 manual, experience solving these types of problems?

Cheers!
Rob

 

[woodfire]

Rob,

We have an operational System 18

Performance:

The system heats our 1050 sq foot cottage (southern ontario canadian winter - probably not much different than Vermont) without requiring any other heat source. The cottage is insulated fairly well, has a large surface area of windows, but these are double pane low e types. Not sure what the efficiency is but we burn about 1 face cord per typical winter week. After one days use, the windows do get a build up mostly near the top half because they are further away from the radiant heat of the hot coals and I do clean them daily. My rough estimate of efficiency is perhaps 50%. There is no after-burn technology in this older system. We burn wood seasoned for two summers- it burns much cleaner. The heat exchange works on natural convention. Perhaps some type of forced air fit could bump that up a bit, but it would also cool the firebox, so it is hard to say if this will make a big difference.

The top of the chimney is only 10 feet from the firebox which is less than specified in the manual -of which I do have a hard copy but no electronic file available. This combined with the reduced flue diameter requires me to usually have the air vents open to maximum. BTW: The following site does have a few diagrams from the original manual -select make and model.

(broken link removed)

Details on repair:

We have our System 18 working properly now but at a cost of several thousand dollars. In our case, the dome that joins the firebox to the flue was displaced and a gap was allowing smoke to get into the heat exchanger and into the room. This was fixed, then a non insulated stainless steel flex liner was dropped inside of the original insulated stainless steel liner because there was corrosion. This did reduce the flue size from 8 inches to 7 inches. The greatest cost was due to the fact that the outdoor cedar siding had to be removed and the brick wall smashed through, in order to get access to the dome.

 

[SAABMaven]

Thanks!

I obviously have a lot of reading and study to do; whilst battling migranes from looking at a laptop screen for my day job.

At this point I doubt that Mr. Issod was the installer, as I've discovered a major boo-boo. There is an air inlet from the high-radon basement. I thought that it led to the combustion chamber; it actually leads to the air-circulation around the firebox, which then heats the air and it comes out the top grilles, as in the attached photo. The result was lukewarm air coming out of the top grilles, and high radon levels in the air upstairs. I have blocked off this basement vent, and now hot air emerges from the top grilles, and the bottom grilles (not pictured) by the floor are actually sucking in cold air from the floor.


DAFT COWS I am discovering other things with this house, done with the same lack of workmanship.

Unfortunately, it means that all combustion air comes from the living room, drawing in cold replacement air from outside. The oil burner kicks on almost immediately after I open a door on the Jotul to add wood. I need some expert advice on how to correct this, since contractors have a bad tendency to wall in their mistakes with as much concrete, drywall, vinyl siding and brick as possible.

Cheers,
Rob

 

[webbie]

Any we installed would be in southern NJ.....

I don't think there is any provision for bringing in outside air for this unit to offset things when you open the doors. The only option would be an air to air heat exchanger in the room or house.

On the positive side, the unit sounds to be working right now...bringing air in the bottom grates and out the top ones. There should be a non-combustible interior ceiling inside the structure about the grates.