Jotul vs England's wood stove

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djkeev

New Member
Apr 9, 2017
62
NJ
Greetings!

I've been a lurker here for awhile, I only recently created a user account.
I am looking for solid advice on my wood stove options.
I purchased a home that I am fixing up for our retirement.
The home was built in 1967 as a modern all electric home with ceiling heat. First thing, I abandoned the radiant ceiling heat! The home was in good structural shape but had been neglected and eventually abandoned in 2012/13.

The interior froze, pipes burst, etc etc etc.
the house was a bargain and I've been rebuilding it and dragging it into the 21st Century.

Wall insulation is r-13 ..... 2 x 4 framed and aluminum siding. The attic currently has only 6" of blown fiberglass but I plan on increasing that to an r-30 level. Single pane windows that I've rebuilt with new guides and reputtied them. All windows have a good triple track storm window system on them.
Ceilings are a full eight feet.

Full basement but older and uninsulated concrete block. The floor of the home is insulated with r-13 (I think) from the basement.

I like to have options for heat.
The home came with an Englander Pellet stove in the basement, 2010 manufactured. I pulled out the dead mouse in the blower fan and cleaned it so it works just fine.

I purchased a heat pump system (yes I heard that groan, but heat pumps have become remarkablly efficient down to about 28*, my area has average lows during the winter of 22* and highs of 40* so we aren't by any means severe ) and will use an auxilllary electric furnace if needed. The home is rural, there are no utilities serving the home except electricity. Oil heat is on my "evil demon" list and propane on my "heat is costing me more than I are making" list.

To this end I am building a wood burning masonry "fireplace", well actually a masonry firebox into which the stove will set and be vented into an 8" square clay tile flue via a 6" tile thimble, (though I do wonder if 6" round clay would be a better option with the stove), no combustibles near the stove except the wood mantle. The unit will look like a fireplace with a wood stove sitting in it, but no damper or smoke chamber. I don't have the space to have a free standing stove inside the home, the entire home is only 700sf and I have a planned expansion to 1,100 sf eventually. The room is 25 x 14 in which the stove will be located.

OK, enough building details I hope?

My brother has a Jotul F100 that he LOVES.
Being recessed into a masonry box I worry about the radiant heat being effective at moving into the living space.
I figure a Jotul F3 CB would be better sized. None have fans however.

I read mixed reviews on the new Jotuls and to boot...... they aren't cheap new. I've been shopping used F3 Jotuls and while some are affordable I worry about heat plate damage from over firing.
I've also read horrible feedback about the newer F3’s being smoking monsters giving little heat.

I wonder about home insurance embracing a used wood stove and while I don't yet have emission standards (rural Pennsylvania) I'm sure that day is coming.

So I've turned my eyes to England's wood stove line up, in particular the 13-NC series. While not as pleasing to the eye, it gets decent reviews and is very affordably priced.

http://www.heatredefined.com/englander/stove/Englander-1200-1800-Sq.-Ft.-Wood-Stove

Home depot is a dealer but they don't list England's model number, this may be the stove?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Englander-1-800-sq-ft-Wood-Burning-Stove-13-NCH/100157775

Lowes has the Summers Heat brand of the Englander 13NC
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Summers-Heat-1-800-sq-ft-Wood-Stove/3664802

So what say you about my choices?
Or
Is there an entirely different product I should look at here in Pennsylvania?

Any feedback is welcome and appreciated!

Dave
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,531
South Puget Sound, WA
The modern F3CB is a great small stove. We had one and it behaved and heated very well. It is a well built, solid little stove. Several members here have them and are happy with the stove. The only issue it that it has a very small firebox so the burn times are short, about 4-6 hrs at best, with reloads more like 2-3 hrs when the stove is being pushed to heat.

All of the stoves you've listed are the same model. The 13-NC. Summer's Heat and Timber Ridge are different branding of the same Englander stove. It's a good heater. Member Dix has one. It needs larger clearances and robust hearth insulation, but it heats well.

If you are looking for used I would also keep and eye out for a Woodstock Keystone or Fireview. These are cat stoves that will cruise at a lower burn rate.

Be sure to insulate that masonry surround or it could be a large heat loss. You might consider building it with a metal chimney and an insulated metal studded chase assembly as an alternative.
 
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djkeev

New Member
Apr 9, 2017
62
NJ
Thanks for the reply, but what do you mean by "robust hearth insulation"?

I thought about using a metal chimney in a framed chase but I lean more towards the permanence of masonry. Maybe it's my age and experiences?

Insulating the masonry firebox is certainly worth checking out.

Dave
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,531
South Puget Sound, WA
The 13-NC needs R= 2.0 hearth insulation. That's quite substantial as compared to some stoves needing ember protection only.

If you are nearing retirement age there's a good chance that a good metal chimney will outlast you and me both.
 

djkeev

New Member
Apr 9, 2017
62
NJ
Thanks!
Yes, sadly I'm finding out that such things as expected asphalt roof life will leave me as an old drooling codger!

Thanks for the hearth clarification. Mine will be masonry lintels (4" laid flat) with decorative hearth material (natural stone most likely) on top of the lintel, the bottom will be exposed open in the basement. The 2.0 requirement will be more than satisfied.

Dave
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,531
South Puget Sound, WA
Just to clarify, the lintel is the supporting arch for the fireplace opening. Normally this is a metal frame on which the brick sits. The hearth requirement is for the floor that the stove sits on. Will you be pouring a concrete base with natural stone on top for the hearth?

Also, pay attention to clearances if there is to be a wood mantel. That can be a gotcha for many stoves. A masonry mantel does not have this issue.

PS: A good heat pump is awesome. Ours is a conventional American Standard unit good down to 25º when the resistance heat kicks in, but there are several Japanese models that work well down to near or below zero degrees.
 
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djkeev

New Member
Apr 9, 2017
62
NJ
0250A701-C186-401C-BC16-BFC7AAA2DC25.gif
0250A701-C186-401C-BC16-BFC7AAA2DC25.gif


Thanks,
Concrete lintels laid upon their side will support the firebox floor and also be the overhanging hearth.
This photo is not mine but shows what I intend to do......



Dave
 
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djkeev

New Member
Apr 9, 2017
62
NJ
I am off to pick up a gently used Jotul F3CB tomorrow.

Decision has been made!

Dave
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
26,095
central pa
Thanks for the reply, but what do you mean by "robust hearth insulation"?

I thought about using a metal chimney in a framed chase but I lean more towards the permanence of masonry. Maybe it's my age and experiences?

Insulating the masonry firebox is certainly worth checking out.

Dave
An insulated stainless chimney will last much longer and work much better than a clay liner. If you want masonry line it with an insulated stainless liner not clay. If you use clay chances are you will be breaking them out and replacing them within 10 years.
 

djkeev

New Member
Apr 9, 2017
62
NJ
I appreciate the advice for using an insulated stainless chimney.
But.....
I always viewed metal fireplace components as somewhat temporary in nature.
The old heatalator style boxes would rust warp and wear out.
The old galvanized triple insulated metal chimney liners would have a similarily short life span.
Hence masonry has a permanence.

Add to this masonry fixation I have almost everything I need to construct the unit on site already...... for free.
I do need to get the clay flue tile, however the price of picking up those is far less than an insulated chimney system.
I'll need maybe eight two foot tiles and refractory mortar for them.

Not heating full time with the unit I am certain that I'll get way more than 10 years from it. And if I am wrong, it is a fairly straight forward repair to slip in a stainless liner at that point.

I know, "buy quality once, cry once", but right now the budget is tight so I'll opt for the immediately less out of pocket expense first. It isn't like 8" sq clay liners are garbage or anything.

Dave
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
26,095
central pa
I appreciate the advice for using an insulated stainless chimney.
But.....
I always viewed metal fireplace components as somewhat temporary in nature.
The old heatalator style boxes would rust warp and wear out.
The old galvanized triple insulated metal chimney liners would have a similarily short life span.
Hence masonry has a permanence.

Add to this masonry fixation I have almost everything I need to construct the unit on site already...... for free.
I do need to get the clay flue tile, however the price of picking up those is far less than an insulated chimney system.
I'll need maybe eight two foot tiles and refractory mortar for them.

Not heating full time with the unit I am certain that I'll get way more than 10 years from it. And if I am wrong, it is a fairly straight forward repair to slip in a stainless liner at that point.

I know, "buy quality once, cry once", but right now the budget is tight so I'll opt for the immediately less out of pocket expense first. It isn't like 8" sq clay liners are garbage or anything.

Dave
I work on chimneys all day every day and while yes clay tiles will work when you compare them to the safety and performance of a stainless liner they are not far from junk. Then factor in the fact that 8x8 tiles are considerably oversized for a 6 inch stove. And the need for the added clearance to combustibles needed for an uninsulated liner and to me stainless looks better and better. Properly installing a stainless liner after the fact also is not that simple. It will require removal of the old clay inorder to insulate.

I do agree that a properly built and maintained masonry chimney is more permenant than a prefab but if you use good stainless double wall insulated chimmey unless you abuse it with multiple fires you are looking at a 30 plus year chimney.