Jury still out...will we be paid?

[smwilliamson]

I basically have a policy with regards to warranty work....we do not do it unless the manufacturer (or distributor there of) asks us to to do it and we are sure that we are going to be paid.

TSC (Total Service Company), a division of US Stove, calls in and has a customer a few miles away from us that is having problems with a brand new stove. The auger is not feeding and they have burned about 2 bags in the stove.

They sent out a new auger motor since that seems to be the problem via conversations with TSC and the stove owner.

I send out one of my guys and he says that the motor is good but he puts the replacement motor in anyway. Still nothing. Everything else seems to work so now they deem it to be a control board problem. A replacement control board is sent out and the homeowner switches it out. Still nothing. So, TSC determines that the control board they sent out must ALSO be defective...so they send another one.

We are called on to go back out and troubleshoot the new control board and get the unit operating, but I'm hesitant to go out again until I get paid for the first visit which is now invoiced but I should see a check in 60 days or so.

The customer calls back up and is upset because her daughter is home waiting for us. I explain the situation about getting paid and agree that I will "stop by" myself and take a look later in the day on my way back home...December 23rd mind you.

So I get there and realize that the hopper lid switch is not wired, hook it up and now we have power to the auger but it isn't advancing.

I take the whole F'ing thing apart to get at the auger plate and what do I find in the feed chute?



Nice. These are Vermonts too. Must have got wet. So, where are the failings? First, my guy should have been able to figure this out...DON'T LISTEN TO THE CUSTOMER!!

So the jury is out....US Stove really shouldn't be on the hook for any of this but they called us and set up the service calls. We did invoice them but in fairness, I do need to contact them and tell them that is was a pellet jam and not their parts.

Looking through her installation folder I also found the installer....a roofer from New Bedford, MA named Mike King...unlicensed to perform this type of work, only has a CSSL (roofing license) not a CSSL-SF (solid fuel license)...no NFI either.

Personally, I'm beginning to think NFI certified installers should register stoves for warranties. Was it set up and installed by a qualified NFI installer? Sorry, no warranty. I may be turning a corner here in my thoughts about how warranties should be executed. I know a lot of warranties say. "Qualified person" but I do not know what that means.

To include this caveat such as this in a warranty is against the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act of 1975; the part about provisions for add-on sales.

US Stove threw about $1000 worth of parts at this thing without even a blink of an eye...think of how much money manufacturers loose each year, then think about how much these stove cost....seems like the overall price for stoves could come way down if warranties were just abolished. There is no law saying that any warranty needs to be given but there are laws in many States which required licensed installers.

It would seem to be that if manufacturers want NFI to succeed they would want NFI qualified persons doing the work...yet even HHT is walking away from NFI as an installer/ technician requirement.

Perhaps dealers could just go the route of L.L. Bean, buy from us, have us install it, let us show you how to use it and care for it and if ANYTHING goes wrong in the first year....we'll take care of it...not one question asked....and we will do it with a smile.

 

[will711]

I didn't vote didn't like either choice. Scott you're a standup guy you feel bad that TSC tossed a bunch of parts & labor at a problem that was a fairly easy fix that your guy should have taken care of 1st time then you have to go out on a Sunday .

Do you need to be paid YES! Figure out what you feel is fair compensation keep the new parts for your inventory?

Educate the stove owner about wet pellets. Have one of those you F uped talks with your guy. Just my 2 cents

 

[moey]

What do you think the cost of the parts is to US Stove? A fraction of the $1000. The money comes from having a technician be on site trying to repair it. Just sayin.. Hope you get paid its the "right" thing to do.

 

[Pellet-King]

I work on warranty everyday, but i'm a auto tech and the dealer has to submit and they will backflag us if dealer bounces the claim, so in essence I dont get paid either!

 

[imacman]

......you feel bad that TSC tossed a bunch of parts & labor at a problem that was a fairly easy fix that your guy should have taken care of 1st time then you have to go out on a Sunday .

Do you need to be paid YES! Figure out what you feel is fair compensation keep the new parts for your inventory?

Educate the stove owner about wet pellets. Have one of those you F uped talks with your guy. Just my 2 cents

I agree.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

TSC should pay the freight as they blew the over the phone diagnosis.

Not once, not twice, but three times.

Maybe your guy never had to clean the mess out of the stove and therefor never saw a clog. I would have hoped he at least left the stove with a fire out of start up burning.

We won't even mention the disconnected hopper switch in all of this.

 

[silverfox103]

Scott, I mean this in a good way, but here goes: The company hires you in good faith, as a "qualified" technician to do the job. But then you sent out a guy, who for whatever reason was not qualified. To top it off, the problem was obvious. Not knowing all the facts, I would say the reason the company spent $1000 is because your company didn't solve the problem, no other way around it.

I'm not quite sure where you're going with certified installer thing and trying to divert some of the blame to this guy in New Bedford, this is your mess.

I think if I were you, I would put my tail between my legs and forget about sending any bills to the company. Deep down you must know that your company did not earn a fee, maybe a service call fee, that's it.

My 2 cents

Tom

 

[kenstogie]

i think you shouldyou went there and performed a service. i am not farmiliar with the stove and dont know how hard of a diagnosis this is but still there were multiple issues and you were following orders and you did figure it out. Maybe talk with your tech so he's better able to figure it out in the future.

 

[343amc]

I've been in the same boat more than once, albeit with telecom equipment and not pellet stoves. It's a rough place to be in as you are supposed to 'do as the job sheet says' and nothing more or less. The end user doesn't care who does what as long as its fixed. I do commend you for going above and beyond. Hopefully that customer remembers you for future service needs.

At least stove manufacturers reimburse dealers for labor on warranty claims. In the IT and telecom world, hardware is covered by the manufacturer but labor is the responsibility of the dealer. Kind of a 'thanks for selling our chit, go fix it for free and sell more tomorrow' sorta thing.

 

[minnow]

I'm not seeing the connection between the install by the guy that was not "certified" and the real reason for the breadown - the homeowner dumping in a bag of wet pellets. The only thing that was a warranty item was the unwired hopper lid switch. The 99.5% of the problem here was user ignorance.

 

[smwilliamson]

Good feedback. Yeah my guy should have spotted it. I'm not too concerned with getting paid for both. The first visit is a wash IMHO, but I did go myself and spend two hours. Problem is, the homeowner and the manufacturer never had a conversation a out who pays in this event. I did capture all he parts and will send them back to USSC. I just want to be paid for 2 hrs. This is good in a way cause now I can see we need more training and perhaps a policy here.

I mentioned the whole non-license thing cause I think that whoever installs ought to be first in line to fix. Had I installed it, I would have known it was not the stove. Had I educated the user...perhaps the jam would never have happened. USSC doesn't care who installs it. This is the type of scenario that plagues our industry.

 

[smwilliamson]

Scott, I mean this in a good way, but here goes: The company hires you in good faith, as a "qualified" technician to do the job. But then you sent out a guy, who for whatever reason was not qualified. To top it off, the problem was obvious. Not knowing all the facts, I would say the reason the company spent $1000 is because your company didn't solve the problem, no other way around it.

I'm not quite sure where you're going with certified installer thing and trying to divert some of the blame to this guy in New Bedford, this is your mess.

I think if I were you, I would put my tail between my legs and forget about sending any bills to the company. Deep down you must know that your company did not earn a fee, maybe a service call fee, that's it.

My 2 cents

Tom

Monday morning football... We'll see. Yes, it's time for more training. We are only seeking a service fee so basically you agree with my side....

 

[johnny1720]

In my opinion, for what it's worth. I think that you should be paid for the first service call as you were sent out to make a repair. But, I would have expected an experienced service man should have pickrd up a jammed auger. You did!! I also agree with will711

I could not agree more, that is crazy your dude should have been able to fix that stove on the first try, ie directly power the auger motor to see if it turns.

 

[iceguy4]

I wouldent be proud of the technician BUT he did what he was told. Bill the stove company in full and keep the parts or bill them labor to ship them back. They caused this problem by diagnosing it over the phone to try to save a buck. AS for the customer...short changed yet again (I'm a former flat rate dealership mechanic) Also my hats off to you for taking the time to get to the bottom of it.

 

[movemaine]

I'm pa

Perhaps dealers could just go the route of L.L. Bean, buy from us, have us install it, let us show you how to use it and care for it and if ANYTHING goes wrong in the first year....we'll take care of it...not one question asked....and we will do it with a smile.

I'm partial - I work for L.L.Bean and I think almost every warranty/return policy should follow suit.

Do we occasionally get hosed? Sure. People return backpacks they destroyed 10 years ago - but, because of the return policy it always brings them back.

I'll tell you a story that's a bit of a legend in the office.

A guy mails back (to L.L.Bean) an order of company embroidered shirts with a note saying they are terrible quality, the embroidery is out of alignment, the colors are wrong and that he wants a refund, as he needed the shirts for an event for the upcoming weekend. Bean recreates his order, gets all of the shirts embroidered in the same day and overnights the order to him with a note. Turns out the shirts weren't ordered from Bean, but from another company and Bean sent him shirts free of charge. The guy wasn't actually a customer, but believed he was and Bean will always do right by a customer.

That being said, L.L.Bean will replace anything anytime. Not just in the first year.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

this is a tricky one, speaking simply as an individual who works in this industry i feel the following is equitable.

1. if he manufacturer set up the service call, they pay the service call.
2. if the customer called the manufacturer and they didn't cover(as in check for)a jam due to bad fuel, then they DEFINITELY get to pay for the service call, the should have caught that.
3. Scott's tech if on site should have caught that, sorry Scott , you know i love ya, but he should have caught that.
4. "professional" installers should be held to a standard to deal with permits and such if they are required in their area of operation.

bad fuel FWIW ain't the manufacturer's , installer's, or service guy's fault. it happens though and usually the blame goes first to the manufacturer of the stove , then the installer, the service guy , the pellet maker, finally when everyone else has taken their ass chewing from the angry customer and all this comes to a head someone looks at the pellet retailer selling fuel sitting out in the rain like its potting soil or something. its part of the process hopefully folks take all of this in consideration at once and not just jump the poor fool on the phone or in the driveway who only wants to help.

 

[Pellet-King]

Well last year you were asking for to hire help HERE, it is what it is!!

 

[Ejectr]

I guess my question would be how did the customer burn two bags of pellets with no power to the auger motor because the hopper lid switch was not wired?

 

[MCPO]

Scott, why put any blame on the roofer? He didn`t cause the auger jam. You might feel your service dept is the best but these things can happen to the best too.
And taking a chance on getting paid from the manufacturer is simply a part of doing business with them.

 

[johnny1720]

They will pay, here is a friendly hint tell them you want parts as opposed to $, those parts are money on the shelf.

 

[MCPO]

Good feedback. Yeah my guy should have spotted it. I'm not too concerned with getting paid for both. The first visit is a wash IMHO, but I did go myself and spend two hours. Problem is, the homeowner and the manufacturer never had a conversation a out who pays in this event. I did capture all he parts and will send them back to USSC. I just want to be paid for 2 hrs. This is good in a way cause now I can see we need more training and perhaps a policy here.

I mentioned the whole non-license thing cause I think that whoever installs ought to be first in line to fix. Had I installed it, I would have known it was not the stove. Had I educated the user...perhaps the jam would never have happened. USSC doesn't care who installs it. This is the type of scenario that plagues our industry.

Maybe In a perfect world the original installer would be first in line to repair the stove but those of us in the skilled trades deal with repairing work that had been done by others on a daily basis. You gotta look at it as just another job..

 

[kinsmanstoves]

I get called all the time asking to install XYZ brand stove that the customer bought. I really do not like working with a lot if brands due to parts and knowledge of the workings on some stoves.

TSC calls all the time and I always turn down their business. I have heard they pay fast but a lot of times it is the customers fault, dirty stove, bad install. If I had dedicated service guys it would be different but I do not.

Eric

 

[tjnamtiw]

I agree with most of the posters. If you sent a guy out to put in a new auger and he acknowledged that the old one AND the new one both worked OUT OF THE STOVE but wouldn't turn the auger, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to, as a next step, investigate WHY the auger doesn't turn! A simple twist with pliers should have told him there was a jam. Even I could figure that one out. One service call fee would be reasonable and let the homeowner keep the parts.
This also is one more example of why pellet stoves should not be purchased by a specific segment of our population. Just read some of the posts here (I'm sure you do) and you quickly wonder how these people even manage to get dressed in the morning.

 

[FyreBug]

We invite and list on our web site only installers/repair folks who are NFI / WETT certified. Doesn't guarantee they'll do a good job but at least it's a starting point.

Our policy is we (our tech folks) troubleshoot the problem. We insist on pictures. Once we are reasonably confident we know what the problem is we'll ship the parts to the consumer and assist the tech on site with any issues.

We use to tell the customer that if we had to sent a tech over they had to provide us with their credit card # and we could charge them $65 (cheap for the price) after the visit if the tech deemed improper installation / fuel / operator error etc... We would then credit the tech back for his labor & drive time (more than $65 bucks).

Unfortunately, the above policy was extremely unpopular with the customer since in their view the problem is always the appliance and their installation is always perfect. So we've not really implemented it since our phone techs were getting a lot of abuse about it.

If anyone has a better solution please let us know. We'd love to hear it.

 

[tjnamtiw]

I think your question really points back, FyreBug, to the problem with the distribution, sale, and after the sale issues that have been discussed here for years. If I buy a pellet stove and the shop goes out of business, I'm screwed because no other dealer will honor the warranty since they didn't make the sale. It doesn't work that way with the auto industry or appliances. There is non-existent or reluctant support of the dealers by the manufacturers and a total refusal by MOST manufacturers to even talk to the consumer. This has been documented here often. Perhaps that's because they know that these stoves are inherently demanding of the user to maintain them properly. There are so many things that can go wrong with them if they are not maintained properly. That's why this forum is so popular.
I totally agree that having pictures sent back to you to help troubleshoot problems over the phone is a real help but many of these owners don't know how to transmit pictures to you. They don't know how to read a meter, don't know what a thermocouple is, or don't even own a wrench. It's pretty hopeless, actually, and I'm sure the frustration level is very high on your end of the phone. If the purchaser has never owned a pellet stove before, it would seem to be a good investment to earnestly have him/her spend a few HOURS in a classroom/shop setting being taught hands on how to clean the stove, locate and test each controlling part (snap disks, vacuum switch, auger motor, fans) with a meter. Of course, this assumes that the dealer actually knows how to do this! A Harman dealer near me didn't know how to even answer the simplest questions about his stoves. This would require the dealer to attend formal training sessions at the manufacturer. The price for the consumer's class would be included in the price of the stove. It would be a condition of the sale to ensure that future service calls were indeed justified and paid for PROMPTY by the manufacturer to ANY dealer. This class would also educate the prospective buyer as to his necessary investment in the continued successful operation of the stove. You might lose some sales, once they realize this thing isn't a plug and play set-up, but that's better than spending a fortune trying to educate someone who has no business buying a pellet stove and keep it going.