Just got santioned by Ebay for educating the Public

[elkimmeg]

I ran an auction simmilar to the used stove post for newbies here. Recieved 130 e-mails thanking me and how responsible it was
The last e-mail
"HOw clever of you to list your information this way -- and how responsible! Thanks for taking the time to do this; I actually READ your statement and I printed it off for future reference. Thanks and Merry Christmas!"

My response to Ebay's sanctioning e-mail to me

Message: Furthermore, these listings undermine trust in the eBay marketplace


My listing addressed the lack of trust you do not address. There are so many non- UL listed stove up for auction. None can be legally permitted inspected or installed. One would think, Ebay would applaud the knowledge I presented. Instead Ebay showed its real colors the head in the sand approach. See no evil hear no evil.
I posted what I did. to educate the public and to prevent catrostropic disasters from uneducated buyers.
I am more than willing to send you the actual code concerning code requirements requiring proper labeling listing and testing of a wood stove. ( UL) So you sanction me how ill responsible Ebay really is.

 

[webbie]

( UL) So you sanction me how ill responsible Ebay really is.

I have to check the newest NFPA and perhaps the other codes, but are you suggesting that they have removed ALL the language referring to generic stoves, leg length, etc.

If they have not, I would suggest that they are addressing non-UL stoves. Of course, I have no proof at this point, but surely the last couple of NFPA codes addressed generics stoves. My feeling was that this often came down to either inspector discretion or state/local codes or interpretation.

So you are saying that is I have a museum piece antique stove in perfect condition, it is against code to install this anywhere in the USA?

Anyway, back to the eBay. As Frank may agree (he seems to know something of the law), restraint of trade and interstate commerce is not something that companies generally endorse. I would say that a LOT of the things you can buy on eBay could be dangerous, from old light fixtures to toys that do not meet the current safety standards.

It is within your rights to inform people here, or on your own site, or people that you come in contact with (even in those cases, you tread on thin ice if the facts are not 100% true) - but it is not your right to enter stores like Home Depot and stand in the aisle and warn people against buying or using certain things.

that is prob the way ebay looks at it...

 

[elkimmeg]

NFPA does not address generic stoves but distances to combustiables. we have been over this before .
Not found is any mention of generic in NFPA, However one does not need to read too many pages in the first chapter to find Labeled right after that listing. The same is found on the first page International Mechanical codes. But note antique stoves are exempt from the listing requirement. After this post I will re-print the actuall code concerning this issue again then follow up with a post.
I knew I was wrong on Ebay. I knew someone selling an unlisted stove would complain. But My counter said I got 540 hits before Ebay pulled that auction. I feel good that I may have helped one avoid making a bad decision.

Stating distance to combustiables is not an endorcement for installing Unlisted stoves. How do you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[elkimmeg]

Exact cut and paste of MA Codes based on the International Codes

3610.1.1 Scope: The provisions of 780 CMR 3610
shall control the design, construction, listing and/or
installation of chimneys, fireplaces and solid fuel-
fired appliances in one- and two-family buildings.

3613.3.1 General: All appliances shall bear a
Permanent and legible factory-applied label which
Shall include the following information:
1. Name or trademark of the manufacturer.
2. The model and serial number.
3. Identity of the agency certifying compliance of
Equipment with approved standards.
4. Clearances from combustible construction for
heat-producing appliances.

 

[webbie]

NFPA does not address generic stoves but distances to combustiables. we have been over this before .
Not found is any mention of generic in NFPA
Stating distance to combustiables is not an endorcement for installing Unlisted stoves. How do you arrive at that conclusion?

I'm not a lawyer, but my assumption is that this stuff is quite open to interpretation.

For instance, does the code apply to new appliances only....?

If what you say is true, there would be no need at all for ANY specs in NFPA for clearances, because each stove would be clearly marked!

Again, I have little knowledge in these things, but interpreting codes like one does the bible could lead to the same misunderstandings....we can read things in there by assumption, inclusion or non-inclusion.

So, if antique stoves are allowed, how old is an antique? In cars I think it is 25 years. That makes a Timberline an antique!

Not trying to be contrary....just trying to clearly understand.

Of course, it must also be illegal to use that old Wall Fixture, toaster or many other things you buy on eBay because they are not listed or up to current listings. Again, a legal question of where the government stops and personal responsibility takes hold.

 

[elkimmeg]

Kind of a quiet day on the forum so I thought I add some controversy

I did not qualify antique correctly. I should have said antique cooking stoves were exempt from listing and labeling requirements. Good point about other fixtures, but my reference is from the Mechanical code. Not plumbing or electrical code but the mechanical code that governs wood stove installations and heating equipment, specifically fuel burning appliances NFPA211 is specifically solid fuel burning appliances. Are you saying because there are exceptions in other codes, like the Electrical code those exceptions apply to NFPA 211 or Mechanical codes. This being the case, right turn on red
Is ok, because somewhere there is a sign allowing it so therefore it is allowed everywhere . So that sign I just ran, I do not have to pay attention to, because, somewhere in USA there is a sign saying all right turns on red are ok. Are you advocating illegal installs? You know what my intent is, Simply put, trying to educate people the dangers that exist, Buying that over fired warped piece of junk is plain un-safe. I have viewed many auctions where the pictures tell this story. BTW even Antique cars have to be inspected and deemed road worthy. Un fortunately this job falls upon me as an inspector. Telling the buyers they just bought worthless junk. I see their reaction, and wish they had consulted me first before making that expensive mistake. I hate doing this. All my effort ,was trying to help people avoid that in the first place. I am fully aware that most are impulsive buyers, with little thought process or education as to what they just bought. especially wood stove purchases on Ebay How many have come here and posted I just bough this stove? and are clueless looking for info or advice how to install. That process should have been considered before the purchase not after. My Primers for Newbies tried to educate and instruct. I got sanctioned for not so much for the information of my auction, But for telling readers of that post the best information for wood stoves were found on Hearthnet However, your listing was in violation of eBay's Inappropriate Links policy.

 

[webbie]

Simply put, trying to educate people the dangers that exist, Buying that over fired warped piece of junk is plain un-safe. I have viewed many auctions where the pictures tell this story.

Yes, no one can deny your intentions, but (given the holiday) remember that most people who try to save others from themselves end up nailed to the cross, burned (like Joan of Ark) or put on trial (like we did in Mass.)....

You are right, a little slow today.....

Consumer education is probably somewhat like charity - if you helped ONE person (which you surely have), then in a sense you helped the world.

Have you ever taken the worlds shortest political quiz? It would be interesting to find out where it says you are....
http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html

It can show regional differences. For instance, NH is regarded as Libertarian (live free or die) and they don't take wel to being told what they can do. Mass. is known as over-liberal, which means that many in this state think that more government is the answer to societies problems.

I come out quite libertarian on the quiz. Considering I'm a radical leftist (at least some think so) that is saying something.

 

[elkimmeg]

That S letter on my cape is not for superman or the scarlet letter either, S to me is Safety
One would hope common sense would prevail and not need government intervention,
but I guess that is wishfull thinking. Just got the new revised Carbon Monoxide laws. Guess what, every
home sold will require them with fossile fuel burning appliances or attached garages. Similar to smoke detector
requirements now. I also realize that older EPA approved stoves can be over fired, to the point, they too are
un fit to be installed. You are also right, I use the UL label as crutch, hoping 30 year old deteriorating stoves,
never are put back in service.

 

[elkimmeg]

took the quiz Centralist bodering on Liberalism little left of Center not much

 

[webbie]

took the quiz Centralist bodering on Liberalism little left of Center not much

That's a cool quiz, but I suspect we'd have to see the logic behind it to trust it.

Still, most people that take it seem to be somewhat agreeable with the results. Amazing that they can simplify things with just a few questions.

 

[Corey]

Not to hijack the thread, but the quiz pegged me as a dead center libertarian which seems to describe me pretty well. Strangely, the test registered the majority of the respondents as libertarians, but it never seems to me like the voting goes that way.

Corey

PS any chance we could get a link to this auction??

 

[elkimmeg]

Ebay removed it gone. It seemed they got a complaint from a guy selling the death fire box wood stoves.
Claimed my auction was hurting his sales. He was getting too many questions about are they legal to install
and properly labled. I was carefull not to mention Volezang in my auction description. So Ebay removed my listing
for inproper link to Hearthnet

 

[Eric Johnson]

It's a fun test.

 

[Amaralluis]

Can you paste here the content of your auction so we could all read it and learn?

Thanks