Keystone heat?

[pattyz]

Hi all,
We are in the third year with our Woodstock Keystone stove. I found out all the good things right here on the forum, called Woodstock up and it was a done deal. We have found that the stove it replaced run us out of the house compared to what we have now. It has not kept us no where near the warm we liked. The old stove was made locally called a Oakridge. It was dirty nasty to run, but it was cast iron, fire brick heating monster. I almost chose the Mansfield over the Keystone. We know the key to the heat with this thing is keep the combuster clean, or you do not get heat. I have talked with Woodstock a few times, and they say with a 1400 sq ft rancher we should be very warm, but most of the time we are not. It has a wood box way to small for people who work all day, and we both get up at night and keep it fed, with the setting on 1 1/2 to 2. We love the quality of the stove, but would trade up in a minute if we knew it gave out this kind of heat. Its is supposed to be soft heat, we knew that. But its just not a way to struggle with the combuster, the small box, plus setting a timer so we dont forget to shut the combuster back down in 15 minutes. Are we the only ones who feel the $2k was not well spent on this stove. For those who are shopping, you cant get a better made stove, but..... a large firebox and cast iron, makes the warmth. I hope Woodstock will forgive me, we offered to swap back and buy a used Fireview with the bigger box, but we had to pay shipping on both stoves. That was too much for us to handle. I love any ideas we can get. I see lots of happy Keystone owners here. We use good oak wood, it is covered and dry, we are thinking of replacing it with a non-cat stove soon. I will add that cleaning the chimney has become a thing of the past. This stove burns clean. No one knows more than us, the other stove the entire pipe was full of creosote no matter what we burned. Being built in the 80's we could not expect anything more. I also want to add that we heat only with wood, and its the only way to go. Thanks to all for a great place to come for information.

Not so warm in MD.
Patty and Jim

 

[Highbeam]

Isn't the Keystone a teensy weensy stove? Don't blame the soapstone as a cast iron stove would do the same thing. Don't blame the cat combustor since it is doing all it can by making a clean chimney and burning up all your wood. If anything is to blame I would say it is the small stove or your burning style.

 

[pattyz]

It's really not a bad size stove at all. The website clearly states it is made to do 35K BTU's so people need to think about that when they shop around. 35 BTU's is really not a lot of heat for an entire house. Our main purpose was to have a safe clean woodstove, and we have that. We cleaned our SS chimney once on month, and it was always full of residue. Then it would fall down into the rain gutters etc. Woodstock makes an excellent stove. But when we get really cold temps here, its just not doing much for our rancher. It is centrally located right in the dining room area, with a 18 X 20 family room off to the right of it. Most of the problem is it is soft radiant heat, not the harsh heat the other stove gave out. The stove really holds a good bit of wood, but the combuster takes up the whole top area of the load area. Making it possible for only about three split logs at a time. We run it at 2 almost all the time. With hot coals to start it again at the end of the day. Its a real investment to buy one of these stoves, so we will wind up making it work for us. To try to sell it locally we would loose a lot on it.

 

[Todd]

I missed this thread. Should of been in the other forum, no pictures here. You say you run your stove on #2 most of the time? Most Woodstock owners run theirs at #1 and below. That would explain your short burn times. The cat needs time, temp, and turbulance to operate effectively. AT #2 the smoke may be going through the cat too fast and not giving it the time to burn. Your losing too much heat up the stack. Try burning it a #1 or 1/2 and see what happens. What kind of stove top temps are you getting at the #2 setting?

Hey Begreen,
Move this thread to the Hearth room so this guy can get some help.

 

[begreen]

thread moved

 

[pattyz]

Thanks for the input. After three winters we have tried almost everything to get more heat out on those real cold days. We have to clean the stove often to keep the heat going in it. We will clock some temps on 1 or 1/2 and see what happens. If you read on the forum, some people say that if they don't turn it up, you just don't get the heat with a Keystone. The box only holds s few logs, and you have a choice of long burn times on #1 or more heat output of raising it to 2. We have talked to Woodstock many times, and they say a 1400 sq ft rancher should be in great shape with the Keystone, but they did say running it on #2 in real cold weather was not a bad idea. Our former stove run us out of here, way too big, too hot, and too dirty to run, it was build in the 80's and at the time was a great buy. But not a safe way to heat your house. I am going to do as you and a few others are doing, keep it down and see if the heat picks up. We have it running as we speak here, just turned it back to 1 about 30 minutes ago, went from 430+-, now to below 380. When we lower the numbers, we loose heat on the top thermostat. We know the stove has heat output and we are using oak right now, nice and dry. But it makes sense to let the combuster do its job by burning off the smoke and using it as heat. We read the owners manual for months trying to figure out a better way to get heat. Also we use a timer and give it a full 12 to 15 minutes each time we re-load, before shutting the combuster back down. does anyone else go to this extreme to allow the moisture to burn off???
We do appreciate the feedback.

Keystone in Maryland

 

[jpl1nh]

It's April and using our Keystone here in Coastal NH, I think we've used maybe 30 gals of heating oil. All the other heat has been the Keystone. We heat about 1200 sq ft open concept with lots of 20 year old windows, a cathedral ceiling and 2 skylights. When we get windchills or absolute temps down below 0 for more than a day, we do need to turn on the furnace for 1/2 hour once or twice a day. Other than that its the Keystone. We keep our house at 68 to 73 all the time. If you let your house cool off in cold weather, it can be tough to get it warmed up again. If we need real heat, we push stovetop temps to the max which is around 600. Haven't gotten it over 650 ever. If I burn a load of oak on 2 loaded in an already warmed stove, we'll be up around 600 stove top for a couple of hours maybe more and we'll get some serious heat, unless its' cold it can be too much. I have a slightly oversized chimney, though within the Keystone's parameters, so I run it about 1/4 to 1/2 a setting more open than most do. This eve with a load of punky but very dry red maple, some white pine, and some oak and black birch sticks (like around 1" in diam) loaded an hour and a half ago when my stove top was below 200, my setting is down to 1 1/2 now, lazy flames are rolling around top of firebox and stove top is 450. I've cleaned my combustor once this winter, mid season, and have burned about 4 cords, 50% of which is crumby stuff like hemlock, poplar, pine (hey it's free!) How tall is your chimney? No, I don't necessarily wait 12 to 15 minutes before engaging combustor. I wait till I have stack temps rising above 250 and the wood is burning very well. If I add wood to a really hot stove, I may engage in 3-4 minutes. You just get a feel for when it's hot enough to engage after a while. Do you ever see your combustor glow? If you get your wood load good and hot and then lower the air, you can even snuff the fire out and boy you can get the combustor glowing like crazy. That will give you stove tops up in the 600 range though I can start to get back puffing. While it's a small stove it does a pretty good job of pretending it's a medium size stove and certainly gets the most out of a load of wood! When you load for cold weather, do you fit stuff in tight or loose? Do you fill the spaces with smaller splits?
While it's not a big stove, sounds like your set up or technique is preventing you from getting max heat. PM me if you want.

 

[jpl1nh]

Couple of other questions. How old is you house? How well insulated? Is it windy there? Do you have a lot of sun exposure?. Good windows? Slab or basement?

 

[Todd]

What size is the chimney diameter and hieght that you have the stove hooked up to? You also say your burning dry Oak? Did you buy it? How long has it been since it was split? There aren't many wood suppliers that sell real dry firewood. Oak is notorious for taking over 1 year to dry out.

 

[pattyz]

We are really getting some great help with the damper numbers to use, you can tell not one person has any complaints with the Woodstock stoves!
The house is very insulated and we have Anderson windows. All thermal glass. The thermostat on top of the stove is what also tells us this stove works, or don't work depending on what we have in the pot, per say. We cut our own wood, we have three yrs worth done this yr. all given to us by tree trimming experts who love to dump off excess wood. We feel very lucky with that, but we do have to split it. With it set on 2 it is putting out great heat, about 425 right at the moment. I did not see any glow last night using the 1 setting. Sometimes the glow is not there, and Woodstock said that is normal. When loading up we try to put what will fit, then many times adding a few small kindling size pieces to go thru the night in between the large logs. I have noticed that if you pack it too full, you don't get good burns either. But agreed, the burn on #2, the wood does not last thru the night. Stack temp on 2 is 385. We have a reducer at the top of the pipe outlet, going to smaller pipe. We have stainless steel pipe going thru the roof, the house has 6 1/2 pitch, so I am not sure what the total height is. (This is the wife speaking). Any way, tried and tried, this thing does not put out much on the 1/2 to 1 setting. I am assuming that Woodstock still gives you your first replacement combuster, maybe after three winters, it needs replacing. will check for cracks and things showing on the honeycomb area. Thanks to everyone for their help. Most of what we have been doing pertains to our many conversations with the nice guys at Woodstock. Running on 2 will give you the heat, but it does not give you the burn time. Running it last night on 1, it burned real slow, wood lasted, since it was not really cold here, temps were fine.

 

[Todd]

Could be the combustor. Is 425 a normal max stove top temp? You should be able to get her up into the 500-600 range. Once you get a soapstone stove over 500 you feel a big difference in heat output. Another way to check if the combustor is working is to go outside and check your chimney for smoke.

 

[Bill]

The only thing I can think of to cause poor heat output is clogged cap, improper draft, or unseasoned wood. Is your chimney inside or out? Straight or has 90* elbows? How tall is it? When did you split that oak, where did you store it, and what size are the splits? The stove will get hot if the chimney is right and the wood is good.

 

[thechimneysweep]

With any wood stove, there is a tradeoff between heat output and burn time. If you set the draft for the long burn, you get less heat per hour. Add more air, and you get more heat but for a shorter period of time. The ideal is to size your stove so that it will put out enough heat for your needs while adjusted to the low draft (long burn) setting. If that is your goal, I'm afraid you bought too small a stove.

 

[jpl1nh]

I agree with both Smokey and Todd. Tom makes a good point too in that if you and your wife are away for a 10 hour day when it's 15 outside with a 20 mph wind, you just cannot put enough wood in that small firebox to give you the BTU's necessary over that long a period when it's that cold. But in general with well seasoned hardwood, and good draft, it should be easy to get your stove top up to 550 to 600. And like Todd says, there is a big difference in heat output once your stove top is above 500. You should also be able to burn a load well with the stove absolutely packed, though that is best done loaded on a good hot coal bed and it might take up to an hour to get the load up to a good hot temp, but it should then be able to hold there for at least 3-4 hours or longer depending on your setting, before slowly tailing off. In terms of your chimney set up, it should have at least 14' of height above the flue collar, and an additional foot of height or more for each 90 degree bend would help. It should be at least 3' above the roof where it exits the house and also at least 2' above the highest point within 10' any direction . Best chimney size is 7" diam though Woodstock claims you can vent into up to a 10" square or 12" round chimney. Expect weaker draft in a chimney larger than 7" diam unless you have extra height. Oak is great firewood but most would agree it takes 2 summers from splitting stacked with as much sun and wind exposure as you can get to be really good firewood. From your comments, I tend to think your wood is actually still a bit underseasoned. Go to a local gas station or supermarket that sells those prepacked wood packs, buy a couple (make sure they haven't been rain soaked) and try those and see if that makes a difference. If that is not it, and your chimney is up to the specs I mentioned then the combustor could be reaching the end of it's useful life too but I suspect the wood since you claim to have had these issues from day one. It's great you now have three years of wood ahead. That's how you start to make sure you have really good firewood!

 

[rob bennett]

Any updates? I'm a bit curious.
Rob

 

[pattyz]

Hi again,
Update is no good news. We store our wood covered outside, we split our own wood, we burn all kinds of wood with exception to pine and types that are not appropriate for stoves. The draft thing might be worth checking out, we took out a older stove and of course the old solid cast iron type seem to never give you any problem. Our pipe is 8" pipe going up to ceiling about 56". Then it breaks into the SS pipe that goes into the attic and out thru the center of the roof. Our first year with the Keystone was terrible, we were cold, it did not run long on loads, we did have hot coals to restart it at the end of the day, but the box is way too small to hold much of anything long term. We also learned that as soon as it was freshly cleaned, we got heat going good again. Our stove does not burn good on a #1 setting. The gauge on top hardly goes past 350 unless its on 2. As stated above, I really think we chose a stove that is not made to do an entire house. Like everyone here, I did months of research on this stove and we just can't believe the heat that does not come from it. Yes, we have had lots of warm nights with it too, but it does not kick heat like we wanted for this amount of money. The Fireview was not a option for us, due to the pipe coming out "only" from the rear of the stove. That would have put it too far out in the walk area in the dining room. If we can find a buyer local, we plan to sell it for a good price. Maybe steer clear of combusters on the next stove. Our last conversation with Woodstock, they felt there still had to be something wrong on our end. Our other option would be just to use the stove with the bypass on, and see if that gives us the heat we need, it won't be as clean burning but it might be a way to use it more effective on getting the temp up. We have spoke to many people who give up on the combusters on the other brand stoves and just use it as a regular stove. I guess final word would be we like to get a non cat stove, front load, firebrick lined, and a much bigger fire box. This wood stove thing is addictive, we cannot even get comfortable at someone elses house with a typical heat pump setting. We love wood stove heat, its warm, comfortable and there is nothing like it. I guess as the owners manual says to really check the draft is simple as lighting a match and see which way the flame leans. We will do this also, do you think 8" pipe is a problem? We really hate to throw in the towel, but winter 09' is not going to be on this merry go round, of heat or not heat.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

You seem to be blaming the combuster but I don't feel that is your problem at all. Also, running the stove without engaging the cat. will not get you more heat; it will give you less heat.

The more I read of your posts, the more I'm puzzled. You say you cannot get the stove over 350 degrees unless it is on a #2 setting. This is just contrary to what others find, including myself. Although we have a Fireview, it is still a cat. stove and we can not leave the setting on 2 else the stove just goes wild. Our normal setting is on .5.

All this leads me to think it must be a combination of things. First the wood itself. You used to clean your chimney once a month. This leads one to think perhaps your wood is not as well seasoned as it should be. Even with the old dirty stove you should not have had to clean the chimney that often. So it had to be caused either by bad wood or the smoke is getting cold before leaving the chimney, which means a lack of draft or poorly insulated chimney.

You stated, "But its just not a way to struggle with the combuster, the small box, plus setting a timer so we dont forget to shut the combuster back down in 15 minutes." Well, we don't set a timer and we rarely let the fire go 15 minutes before engaging the cat. Do you see the difference? You wait 15 minutes to shut the combuster back down while we wait to engage the cat. Perhaps you are using your cat. backwards?!! That is a possibility. That also would be why the can needs cleaning often.

btw, this past winter (our first with Woodstock stove) we did clean the cat. after 4 weeks but found each time that it really did not need cleaning at that time. Then we had the prolonged cold in January and February and went way over the 4 week recommended time. It still had very, very little to clean off of the cat. We could have waited another month with ease.

For sure you would have been much better off with the Fireview stove. As for it setting out further, it would only be about 6" maximum as you could put an elbow right at the stove. The Fireview has a larger firebox, although I would still prefer they make a larger one yet. But the Fireview can and does roast us on occasion. It gives lots and lots of heat, which suits me very well as I have a physical problem that demands lots of heat in the winter months.

So, it is a matter of your fuel supply, your chimney, improper use of the cat., or the stove just is too darned small for your needs. It is odd that others seem to get lots of heat from their stove with is the same as yours, so it leaves me puzzled.

I wish you much luck and you definitely have to do something before next winter as what you have is not good. Hopefully you'll keep us up to date on what happens and we wish you well.

 

[pattyz]

Hi Dennis,
I can tell you that the wood we use in the best you can get for burning. We stack, split, do all our own wood, and we have been wood stove people for 20+ years. Its a safety thing, it does not take much to build up creosote in a SS chimney, especially since most of the pipe is extended out in the cold temp. on a rancher with a 6 1/2 ft. roof pitch. Woodstock told us, and the owners manual clearly states to wait till all moisture is burned off on the reload before you engage the combuster. We have had many conversations about the best way to run the combuster with them. I also read a thread just ahead of yours that they also own the Keystone and do not run it on 1/2 - to 1., but keep it a bit higher. Our main problem with the old stove was this is a 1400 sq foot house, the wood stove was really big, so we had to run the damper tamped down, which builds up creosote. It would run us out of the house it was so warm, it was just too big. Causing the pipe to fill quickly. We never burn pine, or bad wood, it is split and stacked and tarped a yr or more in advance with sides open to dry out. We are into the 3rd year with the Keystone, and we definately know which way to use the combuster. I understand some people are loving life with their Woodstock stoves, it was Woodstock who suggested that when the heat slacks off, to clean the combuster, check for cracks or any other damage, that most likely after 3 years of constant use, it might need replacing. I have many PM from people already on here that they are on their 3rd replacement on these things. Also you should never engage the combuster unless you give time for the wood to give off moisture first. ALL wood has come moisture. (See page 30 of your owners manual, item #4.) So we use a timer and make sure it has 10 min. or so for this burn off. One thing we realize is the fact that we went from a large metal stove with gave off the really hot heat, to a small stove with only soft radiant heat. From day one, after talking with the Woodstock reps. running on 1, does not heat our house with temps outside at freezing. When we do check the chimney we only find a small amount of dust like material, this stove is the cleanest-safest burning stove around. Running it non-stop all winter and we have only cleaned the stove pipe once. We do know certain kinds of wood give off lots more heat, we use oak mostly when it is really cold outside. I only wish we had to same luck as a few others here. I can assure you its not the wood from heating our house for so many years with only wood heat.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Well it certainly sounds like you are doing all you can. I'm really puzzled by this though.

On the chimney, we put up a new SS chimney when we put the new stove in. After burning 24/7 all winter, the thing still looks like new and we have not cleaned it even once. We burn mostly white ash, soft maple and elm with some cherry mixed in. Our wood also has been seasoned very well and I've already posted that we have a 7 year supply on hand.

We did have some adjusting to do with running this stove vs. our old stove. After experimenting, I found that when we let the coals burn down, we are best served by putting in at least 2 splits of soft maple in front and the ash in back and on top. That gets the fire going fast. If we are starting a fire in a cold stove, we burn all soft maple at first.

On the timing for engaging the cat., we do a bit different. Rather than 10 or 15 minutes before engaging the cat., we never time it until we have good flame. So if we only have a few hot coals in the bottom, we might let it go for 20 minute or longer before engaging the cat. We also like our chimney temperature to get at least to 400 degrees. However, we do things a bit different than most.

Our stove pipe runs horizontally out through the wall. It meets the SS chimney right at the wall line. It then runs outside the house and up along the house....all outdoors. We find that we have to be very careful with that much horizontal pipe else that gets too hot. So, if the pipe temperature gets to 500 degrees we dial down the draft even though the timing might be way less than 10-15 minutes. It works like a charm. (btw, the horizontal section has more than the required 1/4" raise per foot of pipe.)

Other times I put wood in, maybe 2 or 3 splits on top of a large pile of very hot coals. It starts flaming almost instantly. Then, we might engage the cat. in about 5 minutes. So the time before engaging the cat. can vary a lot. The big thing is to look at the wood and make certain it has charred really nicely.

So, before retiring at night, if we've let the coals burn down a lot (in order to give more room for wood), I'll stock the stove by putting at lease one soft maple split in front. The largest piece of ash or elm will go on the bottom in back. Then it is a matter of filling in whatever will fit nicely to fill the rest of the firebox. Then it depends upon the fire, the stove top temperature and the stove pipe temperature as to how long before we engage the cat.

Usually when we have a full firebox, the cat. will start glowing red within 5 minutes. If the firebox is not full, it will take much longer for the cat. to start glowing. However, once we engage the cat., the heat then builds fast and you can almost see the temperature gauge rising. We usually run the stove from 450 to 550 degrees but on really cold nights we sometimes reach 600 degrees. We've had it over 600 degrees just a couple of times and believe me, you feel that heat.

Once again, good luck to you however you decide to correct the problem.

 

[Todd]

This thread has me puzzled too. Have you inspected the inside guts of the stove like the gaskets and bypass damper plate? Could be something is warped or not sealing properly causing heat loss up the stack?

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Todd, I've wondered that same thing. With the Fireview, without the cat. engaged pretty much all the heat also goes up the chimney. Get the cat. fired up and heat pours out from the stove.

Darn, we're going to have to fire our stove up again. Chilly this morning and some chilly weather forecast for a week. Bad part is our apple trees are ready to open the blossoms....and freezing weather expected. So, not many apples for us this next fall.

 

[begreen]

Looks like our arctic bubble is moving cross the country now. It's centered over Michigan. By the end of the week NE will be seeing chilly evenings and considering nighttime fires. Don't close up that stove yet.