Kitchen Queen cookstove and radiant heat

[magicearth]

We have a ten year old Central Boiler outdoor wood furnace that provides in floor radiant heat in the cement slab of our house. We love the radiant heat but are ready to move on from the wood hog, smoke belching outdoor wood furnace. I'm wondering if a Kitchen Queen wood cookstove- (very large fire box for a cookstove) with the water heating coils in the firebox would be able to supply enough heat for radiant heat. The literature says that it heats 40 gallons an hour. I know we would need a large water storage tank with some kind of heat exchanger. The stove would be helping to heat the house, so I know the floor wouldn't be calling for heat as often. Our house is 2 stories 24' x 44'. Presently the heat is only in the floor on the 1st floor. We plan to build a 2 story addition which would add about 1000 square feet. We would put a couple of radiators upstairs.
We live in northern NY, a cold climate. The addition would have passive solar heating in the design. Right now with only 2 large windows on the south side, the heat doesn't come on during the day if it's sunny and above zero.
We also heat our domestic hot water with the boiler.
If anybody has ever done anything like this, we would appreciate any advice you can give us.

 

[woodsmaster]

I seriously doubt it would work espically after the addition. Sonds like a job for a small indoor gasser. Build a room for it when you do your addition and you'll be burning half the wood or less.

 

[Blevesque]

Magicearth do you have the cookstove now or are you looking a getting one. These old cookstoves put out a ton of heat!! Ours which is smaller heats are house (2800sqft) by itself down to about 10-15deg outside. I wouldn't recommend putting a water coil inside your firebox you will have some issues. Once you close the bypass damper on these you need a super hot fire because it has to travel a long ways around the oven before heads out the flue. These cookstoves are absolutly awesome, once they are up to temp they are a freight train. Brian

 

[coaly]

Magicearth;
The Kitchen Queen 480 heats 3000 sf easily. The stainless water coil that mounts in the firebox hangs on the oven side, and does not affect the heating of the oven or firebox size. The left side of the oven gets heat directly from firebox and runs 300 to 325* without pulling the oven bypass lever. When the oven is turned on, the exhaust circulates UNDER the oven first, up the side, and across the top to get out. This flow doesn't affect the water heater in any way. The entire oven box is also made of 1/4" welded stainless steel. That is not advertised and you can see why they cost so much when you see one in person. The coil (3/4 stainless pipe loop) normally connects to the rear mounted water tank, but can be looped through a hot water storage tank with circulator. If the stove can be lower than the tank, it will thermosyphon and heat the water in the tank with no circulator. A circulator would be needed to move it through the radiant system when called for. The 40 gallon per hour is being able to bring two tankfulls an hour to boiling. The tank is 24 gallon. You wouldn't need the rear mounted tank, just the water coil. This 40 GPH is also with the supercharger on, so during a normal burn you won't be kicking the fire up like that. You would not need anywhere near boiling temps for radiant heat. I've never needed the supercharger for water, but it's nice to start it in the morning from coals. It flames up like turning on a light bulb. The firebox holds logs thrown in any which way 20" across or front to rear. The depth is 2 feet, so you can get over 16 hour burns. It hasn't been cold enough to fill mine over half full, and I have plenty of fire in the morning. Even after it's out, 800 pounds of steel stays quite warm 6 hours or more. The firebrick across the front are full brick thickness, not the thin 1 1/4 liner bricks. So it doesn't cook your legs standing in front of it, and the mass helps hold heat. If not using the radiant circulator, you may have too much hot water.

To dump the heat when you don't need it, there is a bypass lever across the back that works from either side. It opens to allow exhaust from firebox directly up stack. This helps in starting, and should be opened before opening front door. This allows the heat to go up without crossing the stove top. Since the water loop is on the right side of firebox, most heat goes out the back instead of being drawn towards the pipe loop and across stove top.
Here's a little known secret that the Amish are using on the cookstove; A bi-metal thermostat spring as found on the rear of a Hitzer coal stove. A hole through the back of the ashpan under the grate is covered with a metal flap that is connected with a chain to the themostat. It works great. It's the perfect intake for coal use as well. They loose their UL rating if you install one, since they weren't tested with a thermostat control, or coal use, if that matters to you.

If installing on a combustible floor, extra floor protection is required with UL stove pad.

Don't let the gasket material for loading door, oven door, ash pan and rear clean out door scare you. The Amish way is not to use any gasket cement. There is a thin slot for the gasket material to slip into. It uses wide flat gasket, and you fold it in half, sliding the two halves in the groove. It can be replaced easily hot or cold !

 

[jimbom]

We don't have a wood cook stove, but we do have radiant floor heat. If you use water in your floor loop, the heat delivered in Btu/hour = pounds water/hour x your T across the floor.

In our case. We need 23,000 Btu/hour to heat our house when it is zero outside. If the temperature of the water into the floor minus the temperature of the water out of the floor is 20 , then we need to flow 23,000 / 20 = 1150 pounds/hour. At 8 pound of water / gallon 1150/8 = 144 gallons/hour. Which equals 2.4 gallons per minute to heat our house if the water passing through the floor loses 20.

Couple of things. 23,000 Btu/hour is very low. Typically a house would need much more heat at 0 . You also need to know the temperature required entering your floor to meet the heat demand.

My grandparents had a wood cook stove. I presume you will want the floor supplied with warm water all day. If so, that thing is going to run you out of the house before the radiant floor ever gets warm.

 

[woodsmaster]

Looks pretty neat how much do they go for. If I were Amish I would have one of those.

 

[magicearth]

Magicearth;
The Kitchen Queen 480 heats 3000 sf easily. The stainless water coil that mounts in the firebox hangs on the oven side, and does not affect the heating of the oven or firebox size. The left side of the oven gets heat directly from firebox and runs 300 to 325* without pulling the oven bypass lever. When the oven is turned on, the exhaust circulates UNDER the oven first, up the side, and across the top to get out. This flow doesn't affect the water heater in any way. The entire oven box is also made of 1/4" welded stainless steel. That is not advertised and you can see why they cost so much when you see one in person. View attachment 64118 The coil (3/4 stainless pipe loop) normally connects to the rear mounted water tank, but can be looped through a hot water storage tank with circulator. If the stove can be lower than the tank, it will thermosyphon and heat the water in the tank with no circulator. A circulator would be needed to move it through the radiant system when called for. The 40 gallon per hour is being able to bring two tankfulls an hour to boiling. The tank is 24 gallon. You wouldn't need the rear mounted tank, just the water coil. This 40 GPH is also with the supercharger on, so during a normal burn you won't be kicking the fire up like that. You would not need anywhere near boiling temps for radiant heat. I've never needed the supercharger for water, but it's nice to start it in the morning from coals. It flames up like turning on a light bulb. The firebox holds logs thrown in any which way 20" across or front to rear. The depth is 2 feet, so you can get over 16 hour burns. It hasn't been cold enough to fill mine over half full, and I have plenty of fire in the morning. Even after it's out, 800 pounds of steel stays quite warm 6 hours or more. The firebrick across the front are full brick thickness, not the thin 1 1/4 liner bricks. So it doesn't cook your legs standing in front of it, and the mass helps hold heat. If not using the radiant circulator, you may have too much hot water.

To dump the heat when you don't need it, there is a bypass lever across the back that works from either side. It opens to allow exhaust from firebox directly up stack. This helps in starting, and should be opened before opening front door. This allows the heat to go up without crossing the stove top. Since the water loop is on the right side of firebox, most heat goes out the back instead of being drawn towards the pipe loop and across stove top.View attachment 64118View attachment 64119
Here's a little known secret that the Amish are using on the cookstove; A bi-metal thermostat spring as found on the rear of a Hitzer coal stove. A hole through the back of the ashpan under the grate is covered with a metal flap that is connected with a chain to the themostat. It works great. It's the perfect intake for coal use as well. They loose their UL rating if you install one, since they weren't tested with a thermostat control, or coal use, if that matters to you.

If installing on a combustible floor, extra floor protection is required with UL stove pad.

Don't let the gasket material for loading door, oven door, ash pan and rear clean out door scare you. The Amish way is not to use any gasket cement. There is a thin slot for the gasket material to slip into. It uses wide flat gasket, and you fold it in half, sliding the two halves in the groove. It can be replaced easily hot or cold !

Coaly- Thanks for all the info on the Kitchen Queen. I have a few questions...
What is the "Supercharger?"
How big is your house and do you have any other kind of heat?
Are you heating the 24 gallon water tank that comes with the stove or do you have a separate water storage tank? If so, how big and what does it supply? Domestic hot water? Anything else?
Thanks, Magic Earth

 

[coaly]

(broken link removed to http://www.kitchenqueenstoves.com/kitchenqueenstoves/)

This site looks like Kitchen Queen's own, but it's not. This is from Antique Stoves.com in Michigan. He is a friend of the builder / owner Duane Miller. Kitchen Queen has no website, but he does have a business phone.
Duane bought the business from the designer / inventor Freeman Troyer in Indiana. Freeman sold the business due to not having any sons interested in carrying on the business. I believe one was ill due to breathing welding fumes and that could have had an impact on selling. The Lot fell on him to be a preacher and later to be a Bishop in his district. Anyone can deal direct with Duane. He is currently backed up with orders until July.

If you have a cold area closed off from the rest of the house where the heat from this stove doesn't affect, it's perfect to heat water with the firebox loop "coil" and use radiation to get the heat where you want it.

I've heated with nothing but wood and coal stoves since 1985, and this stove starts easier in the morning from a few coals than anything I've used. It burns on a grate that I thought would eat wood, but the grate is made of 5/8 rod with a 3/8 spacing between the bars. It packs with ash overnight, so it's like burning on an ash bed to slow the fire. In the morning, a slight stir allows the ash to fall through, and opening the ash pan door briefly ignites kindling within 30 seconds.Closing the ashpan after 1 minute has a fire ready for splits. This would be 15 mintes in a normal stove.

The only thing I did was change all the hardware to stainless. It already has stainless 1/2" rod for handles and lifter tool, but the screws that fasten the skin and side shields were zink self tappers. Also the screws inside oven door that holds the stainless skin on the door were zinc that I changed. The oven thermometer in the door has a probe that reaches into the oven, and with supercharger allowing air under fire, it will spike from 350 to 600. If the air is closed down, it will coast up about 100 degrees more when shut down. This is perfect for putting cold food in, as it doesn't chill the oven. The strange thing is that it doesn't burn food at higher than wanted temperatures. I believe it's due to no air circulation around food that you're used to in gas or electric ovens. This sealed oven does build up steam, so when the door is opened, you have to keep your face and body back ! This sealed oven doesn't dry out pizza crust, and steams breads as it bakes so things are much better and more moist. I've always heard a wood oven bakes better, and never knew why. This moisture must prevent burning things at higher temperatures. Since the firebox holds so much, you can bake for hours without tending the fire. It's easier than we thought it would be, and my wife got the hang of it the first night. It makes it easy to cook and bake having an oven always ready to put something in.
It does cook faster than a gas range on top as well. You're always moving pans to a cooler area. If you're in a hurry to boil water or can with a large canner, you remove the 10 inch lid over firebox and set the pan or large kettle directly over the fire. A SMALL fire, since the water boils so rapidly it wants OUT and dances over the stove top in a hurry. That was our first lesson. It cooks fast.

Another neat feature is since the fire door is so large, (same size as oven) it has a steel flap inside that hangs down to make the loading door smaller to prevent smoke at the top from coming in. A large piece of wood that normally wouldn't fit pushes the flap open and enlarges the door by about 3 inches higher. This flap is hinged and hangs about an inch behind the door. The air inlet on door front has a inner shield inside the door that is open across the bottom for primary air, and holes across the top for secondary to get to the smoke and top of fire. It doesn't smoke bad when up to temp, and this flap spreads the air across the top of the fire. It would be perfect for a coal grate, but I'd install more brick to cut down the grate area if trying coal. An under grate intake is used at ash pan rear as well for under fire air. The ash pan is open in the back like a big scoop, so it's perfect for air inlet in the back with a Fisher style draft knob or bimetal thermostat.
I found mine for $900 !! New never fired in Frederick MD. with everything except the summer grate. Spoke with Duane and he sent me one for $75. There was one on eBay Classifieds at the same time, maybe still there in Chicago for $1500. It's worth the trip for half price.


Kitchen Queen Prices
Large Model 480 Without water reservoir Black porcelain enamel is standard finish
$2,445
Small Model 380 without water reservoir Black porcelain enamel is standard finish
$2,345
Water reservoir (Stainless Steel) reservoir does not come with a water coil.
$305
Warming Oven for 380-480 models
$275
Water Heating Coil (Stainless Steel)
$85
Summer Grate (Raises grates 10 inches)
$100
White porcelain enamel finish.
$400

 

[coaly]

It is my sole heat source. I do have a second chinney with 3 flues that I could use for a stove in basement, or living area upstairs, but haven't needed any more heat than the Kitchen Queen.
I heat one level 1850 sq feet in NEPA. I built the home myself with R-22 walls and doubled R-22 in ceiling. It's a high density special order Owens Corning 6 inch insulation. Open floor plan that one small fan in kitchen wall evens out the temp in the back bedroom that is 10 degree difference without it.
Mine came with the 24 gallon reservoir, not installed yet. With this used as the only heat source, I removed a Fisher Mama Bear from the middle of a large kitchen, and had to connect it up right away. I'll set the tank on and plumb it soon when it's shut down during the day. We have a minimal fire overnight, kick it up to cook breakfast and add small splits to cook dinner. About 3 good size 20 inch long splits overnight leaves us comfortable on 25* nights. Warmer or colder overnight temps we adjust the load and air. The firebox would hold 10 or 12 of those splits and drive us out. It would be perfect in the basement and heat over 3000 sf in this home. But we need it in the kitchen. No more propane to cook or heat water ! The summer grate puts the fire directly under cooktop so the stove body doesn't heat up. We just won't use the oven much or bake during the summer. Our garden keeps us busy with plenty of cold dishes all summer anyway.
The users of the water tank I've spoken to use it as their only hot water source. They use either a ram in a stream, windmill connected pump, or hand pump to pump fresh water to a gravity tank for fresh water. This water is poured into the reservoir for the only hot water in the home. Some connect a "hot water keeper" higher than the stove and thermo-syphon to heat the tank water, then gravity feed to sinks and tub. These are Amish farms with no electric, or public utillities. They do use washing machines connected to the water tank, but the machine is powered by a gas engine. People don't realize everthing is governed by the Bishop within their area, so everyone is the same. No competition and no temptation to use electric for luxury or worldy uses. So the way they are used varies by church district.
This stove will do everything you need with no power in a 2000 sf older poorly insulated farmhouse. 3000 sf well insulated is comfortable. It would not be difficult to add a second stainless loop on the other side of the firebox. (left side) for domestic water heating. I'll be connecting my existing water heater into the loop with a bypass to heat the rear mounted reservoir as well. I have a hand pump above the electric pump t obucket water into the resevoir when the power is down. During that time, the loop only heats the onboard tank. Overnight it may need to bypass the tank back to the water heater to prevent over boiling the reservoir. They put too much moisture in the home if you boil the tank, so it's best to keep it 1/2 full (10 gallons) and be ready to add cold water if you burn it hard for space heating.

 

[coaly]

Sorry, missed one;
The supercharger is a lever in the center under the "running board" that opens a small air intake to the fire. The air comes into the side of the fire below the opening across oven bottom. This is used when starting to give as much air as possible with the main air open as well. When burning, if you want to bring the oven up to temp without waiting and heating the cooktop, this extra air inlet really kicks the sparks out of the wood when pulled and comes up in a hurry. If the stove is up to temp and you put a lot of cold food in the oven (it holds 8 bread pans - 4 on each self without anything even on the bottom) opening this intake doesn't allow the oven to cool off much before baking. If you want 400* shut it down at 350 and it will coast up to 400 to 450. If the thermometer reads 600, it's going to coast up to 800 before cooling down. It amazes me the stack temp can be 300 with the oven so hot. It's very efficient.
You have to realize all the heat that raises off the fire either goes directly out the back when the STOVE bypass is open, or across the stove top when the bypass is closed. This is not the OVEN CONTROL. Above the firebox is an outlet directly to the back and out the stack, or heat must go sideways across the stove top when this "stove bypass" is closed. That is the normal route overnight. When both the back outlet (for starting and opening door) and cooktop outlet (oven lever) are closed, the firebox heat has to go out sideways, across the oven bottom, and up oven right side to get out. There is a piece of 3/16 plate between the supercharger inlet and this oven exhaust outlet that makes the turbulence in the firebox. There is a diagram on the website above that shows air flow through the stove.
Overnight the oven door can be left open if more heat is needed, but you don't pull the oven circulation lever. That is only needed for about half the baking time to bring it up to temp. (or a 6 hour turkey) The heat radiated from the firebox next to the oven maintains the temperature just fine. Cooking and baking we keep the stack damper open for draw, and close it overnight.
Here's a pic that shows oven lever at top, supercharger lever at bottom; The running board and doors lift right off to get through a 36 inch doorway. The 380 fits through a 32" door.

 

[woodsmaster]

Around here the Amish have solar panels running a big screen T.V. One I seen even had a diesiel tractor with metal spoke rims with rubber bolted to the steel rim. I guess they arn't allowed to have pnumatic tires. It seems
pretty comical to me.

 

[coaly]

He may have to drive the road from field to field and do damage to the road without rubber pads. The Bishop would make an exception. I'll explain;

I live the Amish culture, not the religion. (that includes filtered internet) Most of their religious beliefs are close to the same as Christian churches. The bible is taken literally, and is the reason for most of what they do, and why. My wife's family was Mennonite, and they are very close to, and considered Amish Mennonite. I'll try to explain things as simple as possible, maybe it won't seem so strange.

They are not resisting technology, or electric. They use both, even have fiberglass spokes and buggy parts.They seperate themselves from the WORLD. That means they are IN the world, but not OF the world. Same as the belief of Christianity. Connecting to the power grid is a cut-off principal or seperation from worldly things. Same as a wired phone. If you have electric in the home, you can use it for other than necessary things. Radio and TV are considered unnecessary and I would have to see them use TV for myself. Diesel engine for a generator for welder, or other work yes, but to power a computer that could go online and be used for other than good things, no. Having electric for "fun" leads to temptation, so it's not allowed. The Bishop of the district sets the rules for all to follow.
Rubber tires on field equipment are not used because you could use the tractor for other things. Like a joy ride to town. Or things leading to trouble. It's called temptation. Keeping steel wheels in the garden prevents temptation. It's made for tilling God's land you're using.
Not driving or owning a car, or fancy clothing, or different color barns ect is PRIDE. It's easy to become prideful of anything. Here's the problem of pride and the reason why all clothing is the same, buggys are the same color, etc...... Before man, Lucifer was a cherub or angel in heaven. He became prideful and full of himself. He wanted to be worshiped himself instead of doing what the Lord wanted. He was cast out of heaven, and is known as Satan today. Evil started with pride. They will not allow ANY pride in their lives whatsoever. They don't take pride in making quilts, good stoves or furniture. They make things as perfect as possible to give glory to God for being created and give thanks for the created things they have to work with.

Using a gas powered washer can only run the washer. Plugging into a generator to run the washer could be used for other things leading to temptation. It's all in what the head of the church of your area allows. If something is done against church rules, you can be shunned from the church. That doesn't mean going to church on Sunday. That means doing business, no insurance (they self insure with church money - they don't take a collection) not even your family will have anything to do with you. Consider it a scare tactic that works. That's the main difference between Amish and Menno. The split started with not agreeing to shun someone for changing churches.

They also do not evangelize, or GO out into the world. (as told to do in the bible) They believe in letting people see the good in them for themselves.

 

[coaly]

My wife harvesting pumpkins. shhhh

 

[woodsmaster]

I Know of a few who deflected. The TV thing is one I find funny. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Obadiah]

I'm wondering if a Kitchen Queen wood cookstove- (very large fire box for a cookstove) with the water heating coils in the firebox would be able to supply enough heat for radiant heat. The literature says that it heats 40 gallons an hour. I know we would need a large water storage tank with some kind of heat exchanger.

Greetings MagicEarth, I stumbled over this post and thought I should comment. I don't want to steal my friends at Antique Stoves glory, Ed is a great guy, knows a lot about Antique Wood Cook Stoves.

The Amish, enough said, I lived amongst them for a while as well. I found that living among the mountain folks in Montana made more sense for this family, they are far more straight forward and you know where you stand with them, they understand "sustainability" as well.
With the Amish I have found that your always an outsider if your "English".
The marketing of "Amish", for Craftsmanship is something to be written about in Sales and Marketing text books in schools everywhere, In reality, they put their pants on one leg at a time just like us, with lots of baggage too.
One of our competition in West Virginia touts themselves as "Plain Folk" yet runs an eCommerce company selling cookstoves and whatever else they can peddle to the ignorant city slickers who think, 'because they look Amish.....they must be honest and can teach me to be self sufficient". They see no Irony in any of it........as they hand over their cash.

Enough of that Bunny Trail,

I am asked this question everyday during "Stove Season". "Can I also heat my radiant floor with my Kitchen Queen?"

For me there are two seasons, the other one is "Wildfire Season", yes I'll admit it, I'm a Pyromaniac. Fire is a BIG part of my life.

A wood fired boiler is specifically designed to do what it does safely, it carries safety certificates and testing validation that it won't explode and kill you and your family.
If it does you can call your attorney.

A Kitchen Queen Water Coil is designed to heat the water reservoir on the back of the stove that is a open non pressurized system and can not build pressure. It can not explode.

Can a Kitchen Queen act as a hot water boiler? Yes, but why, the Kitchen Queen throw over 100,000 BTUs of useful convection heating, it should more than heat your space.
But being a Radiant Floor lover myself, I can understand warm feet make all the difference, I have helped many folks heat other parts of their home that could not be heated conventionally with convection hot air, using their wood cookstoves. In all cases I worked with them and grew comfortable with their abilities, because of the liability involved few dealers will help, or feel comfortable enough understanding hydronic systems to comment. As an Firefighter Engineer, I take safety very seriously which is why I made so many YouTube videos on this subject with many more to come.
https://www.youtube.com/user/WoodyChain

https://www.youtube.com/user/wildfirefighters

I have sold over a thousand Kitchen Queens and they are one of my favorite stoves because of the reviews they generate and referral customers, they sell themselves.

I also like the ESSE Ironheart and because there is instructions printed in the owners manual on how to hook up a radiant hot water heating system I will share with you some pictures of one of my favorite craftsmen customers from California.

The first picture is of the Obadiah's Water Stove we designed that could heat domestic hot water and the radiant water in our floors. This picture is in our home and we used this system for a couple years to heat our home and hot water for bathing.

Below is a properly designed and installed radiant/
domestic hot water system installed on a ESSE Ironheart.


Below is a diagram off page 8 and 9 of the ESSE Ironheart EWB Boiler installation.

 

[Chicken Farmer]

Why not not just replace the Central boiler with an econoburn owb gasser? Move the old boiler out, set the new boiler in, hook up the lines, ta-da. No more smoke dragon, no major heating system renovations.

 

[Obadiah]

Why not not just replace the Central boiler with an econoburn owb gasser? Move the old boiler out, set the new boiler in, hook up the lines, ta-da. No more smoke dragon, no major heating system renovations.

That would definitely be a great idea. The Econoburn is one of my top choices.
There are many options in hydronics the key is getting it put together properly.