Lazy Flame etc

[MainePellethead]

Hey fellow pelletheads. My Quadra Fire Castile is baffling me a little. I have a lazy flame which results in the pellets building up without burning properly. I have completely cleaned and brushed and cleaned all the pipes as well. All the airholes in the burnpot are open and free of anything...but I'm still getting the nagging flame. I'm "guessing" maybe my door seal may be needed? It appears ok but maybe its not. Any trick to know pretty much that its for door seal? Also...does the seal on the ash pan much matter? It never really appeared to matter in the past. Help is much appreciated

 

[Owen1508]

Dollar bill test on the door gasket.

To check for proper door gasket compression you should do the following:
1. Turn off the appliance and allow it to cool until it is safe to touch.
2. Open the stove door and sandwich a dollar bill in between the gasket and the front of the appliance.
3. Apply pulling pressure to the dollar bill.
4. The dollar bill should require some pressure for removal, but not to the point that it is difficult to remove.
5. If the dollar bill does not require any significant pressure for removal, the door hinges need to be adjusted to achieve proper gasket compression and a good door seal.

 

[MainePellethead]

Dollar bill test on the door gasket.

To check for proper door gasket compression you should do the following:
1. Turn off the appliance and allow it to cool until it is safe to touch.
2. Open the stove door and sandwich a dollar bill in between the gasket and the front of the appliance.
3. Apply pulling pressure to the dollar bill.
4. The dollar bill should require some pressure for removal, but not to the point that it is difficult to remove.
5. If the dollar bill does not require any significant pressure for removal, the door hinges need to be adjusted to achieve proper gasket compression and a good door seal.

Thank you for the reply....I am most definitely going to try this method. I'll post on my results. Thanks again!

 

[alternativeheat]

Thank you for the reply....I am most definitely going to try this method. I'll post on my results. Thanks again!

I check my door gaskets with the stove running. I use a charcoal grill light, light the flame and run the flame around the doors. Any place the door is leaking will suck the flame right in .

I don't own a Castile but I imagine the ash door seal is just as important as the upper door. The entire chamber of the stove is in vacuum with most manufacturers. Just open the ash door, in my Harman P61 the flame goes dead instantly when I do that.

 

[DMKNLD]

Besides your door seal, check the fire pot gasket integrity. Any air leaks or air flow restriction will impact your flame quality. Is your combustion blower the original one installed on your stove ? Do you remove and clean the combustion blower at least annually? Assuming no air leak issues, and as you have reported, no dirty vent or stove airflow obstructions, then your combustion blower may be wearing out.

Poor flame quality and less active air flow through the pot, which Quads invariably should have allot of, were the first signs of my OE combustion blower getting ready to give up the ghost, followed there-after by the tell tale bearing grinding / whining noise that confirmed it's inevitable demise, more pronounced when the stove first started up.

Though they say the bearings in the Quad motor aren't service able, I was able to get some 3-in-one oil designed for electric motors into the bearings to buy me time until the burn season ended, then I put a new one in at the beginning of the next burn season.

Just my .02, FWIIW.

 

[MainePellethead]

Well...the dollar bill test doesnt "appear" to show any leakage. hmm.

@DMKNLD... its funny you ask about the CM. I just replaced the CM maybe a month or so ago after mine did what you described...I went through the LOUD bearing noise etc...managed to oil it until it finally failed. I put a new one in...now very quite again...but now i have this problem. Im going to replace the door gasket anyway...as well as the ash door gasket just so i know it isnt possibly those...I clean my stove out myself...am I possibly missing something inside the stove airflow in back of the stove?

 

[DMKNLD]

Hmmm...... It sure sounds like you have a firebox air leak or disruption in your exhaust path somewhere. Make sure you do the dollar bill test all around the door gasket, as some parts of it will get compressed and leak more readily than other places on it. Do you do the leaf blower cleaning every ton or so to get all the loose fly ash out of the bowels of the stove ? That could certainly obstruct your exhaust flow if there is clogged up ash between the blower and the vent, especially if you're burning ashy pellets.

Did you do a recent ash trap cleaning behind the cast bricks and maybe not get them seated back in right, or is the heat exchanger baffle plate not fully seated perhaps? Did you change the pellet feed rate so that it is feeding too much fuel for an efficient burn ? I assume everything else is working OK - ie you get your 4 (or 5) blinking blue lights at start-up to indicate the correct control board setting ?

Have you changed pellets since this started happening? Maybe trying a different brand, though good luck finding any pellets anywhere in the NE, apparently. Just shootin' from the hip on these ideas, as there isn't a whole lot more things that can effect the burn quality on the Castiles. Keep us posted on what you find on any of these troubleshooting ideas.

 

[DMKNLD]

A couple other thoughts, PelletHead. Has the fire pot cleanout gotten too big of a gap where the trap door meets the pot? If that is more than a dimes size gap on the non-spring side, then you may be leaking too much air through the gap and adversely affecting your air flow, though typically a lazy flame is more indicative of too little air flow through the firepot vs too much. Is your glass more black or ashier than usual?

Occasionally my fire pot clean out door doesn't completely close after I've cleaned it, and that could certainly affect your burn quality also. A couple things to check at least.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Well...the dollar bill test doesnt "appear" to show any leakage. hmm.

@DMKNLD... its funny you ask about the CM. I just replaced the CM maybe a month or so ago after mine did what you described...I went through the LOUD bearing noise etc...managed to oil it until it finally failed. I put a new one in...now very quite again...but now i have this problem. Im going to replace the door gasket anyway...as well as the ash door gasket just so i know it isnt possibly those...I clean my stove out myself...am I possibly missing something inside the stove airflow in back of the stove?

OK, I'm hoping you still have your old combustion blower. Count the number of fan blades on the old one and the new one. Another poster just showed that some replacement blowers have 9 blades instead of the 11 that are on some of the Quads. With less blades, obviously you're going to have less air flow.

Then also be sure that your trap door under the burn pot is closing all the way. Also pull out the ash tray and see if the trap door is hanging down on the side opposite the pivot.

I'm assuming when you say 'all of the burn pot holes' you're including the 8 little ones, right?

There is NO gasket on the ash pan AFAIK. At least not on my insert! Totally useless to have an OAK on one of these!

You didn't mention that you cleaned the exhaust piping and in where the exhaust blower is located. Since you will be pulling out the blower to check the number of blades, you can check the area at the same time.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

simply put , there are 3 reasons for a lazy flame. fuel, a leak, or a restriction. its not rocket science. check for leaks , if none are present (be thorough , they can be hard to find sometimes) restrictions, go all the way through the stove and the flue , don't forget horizontal sections which you cannot get at through a cleanout tee. if all else is as it should be the fuel may be the culprit , though ive found that to be quite rare.

 

[DMKNLD]

There is NO gasket on the ash pan AFAIK. At least not on my insert! Totally useless to have an OAK on one of these!

My FS didn't have an ash pan door gasket either, Tom, which seemed kind of odd. So I made one out of 3/4" wood stove gasket rope, as much to make the door fit tight to prevent it from vibrating in the typical harmonic fashion common to my stove at least. But looking into the ash pan area, it definitely isn't air tight, so I guess the Quad designers figured that somehow into the air / fuel mix equation.

Good thought on the fan blade number discrepancy, which I recall forum threads where allot of folks were going with cut rate blowers that wouldn't run on the high setting, didn't have the correct wiring loom configuration, etc. Something to be said for going OEM, I guess, or at least OEM specs.......

 

[tjnamtiw]

My FS didn't have an ash pan door gasket either, Tom, which seemed kind of odd. So I made one out of 3/4" wood stove gasket rope, as much to make the door fit tight to prevent it from vibrating in the typical harmonic fashion common to my stove at least. But looking into the ash pan area, it definitely isn't air tight, so I guess the Quad designers figured that somehow into the air / fuel mix equation.

Good thought on the fan blade number discrepancy, which I recall forum threads where allot of folks were going with cut rate blowers that wouldn't run on the high setting, didn't have the correct wiring loom configuration, etc. Something to be said for going OEM, I guess, or at least OEM specs.......

The fan in question WAS supposed to be the OEM fan with the mushroom external fan 'hat' but it has fewer blades!
I built up layers of high temp silicone to 'help' seal my ash pan on the Castile since I DID run an OAK into my ash dump in the floor of my fireplace.

 

[MainePellethead]

THANK YOU all...I am going to go back at it and check and double check all...that is GOOD info on the Combustion motor fan...I will be checking that for sure...not sure if thats it, because the stove was working after I had installed...appeared to be working for a couple weeks or so...then this issue...I'm guessing like mentioned....that a plug may be lingering in the stove. Its embarrassing but this is my 5th season and I have to say...I "thought" I was cleaning thorough....but have never used the leaf blower method...it always bothered me that I didnt know if deep inside was getting clean enough...in the chute of the stove. My horizontal and vertical are pristine clean...I tried the dollar bill test...it appears to be tight. I'm going to tear it apart again and use my leaf blower etc to try to clean more....and yes...black suity is on inside including parts of class...pellets arent burning enough or fast enough I think for lack of air intake...maybe plug...

 

[DMKNLD]

Do the 'ash dragon', Pellet Head, I'm guessing that will be where you find your problem. Rewarding-ly entertaining as well! Pics are always welcome !

Remember to disconnect your vacuum switch tube to keep from perf-ing the vac switch diaphragm. If you've had 5 years of internal ash build-up, it would do well to take it outside at the end of burn season and blow it out thoroughly with an air compressor - no doubt the fly ash has caked up in there over the years and would do well to have a power cleaning done. Good luck, and keep us posted on how it's working after that !

 

[tjnamtiw]

THANK YOU all...I am going to go back at it and check and double check all...that is GOOD info on the Combustion motor fan...I will be checking that for sure...not sure if thats it, because the stove was working after I had installed...appeared to be working for a couple weeks or so...then this issue...I'm guessing like mentioned....that a plug may be lingering in the stove. Its embarrassing but this is my 5th season and I have to say...I "thought" I was cleaning thorough....but have never used the leaf blower method...it always bothered me that I didnt know if deep inside was getting clean enough...in the chute of the stove. My horizontal and vertical are pristine clean...I tried the dollar bill test...it appears to be tight. I'm going to tear it apart again and use my leaf blower etc to try to clean more....and yes...black suity is on inside including parts of class...pellets arent burning enough or fast enough I think for lack of air intake...maybe plug...

OH, I thought you were having the problem right from when you replaced the fan > "I put a new one in...now very quite again...but now i have this problem." Just in case, maybe you still want to count the blades if you can see them with a mirror and flashlight.

 

[MainePellethead]

ok....now i look like the dad from Christ-mas story.....heres my results so far....I blew out my stove with the leaf blower...alot of soot but i dont think there was any plug in the chute...I was a little skepticle because i do run my shop vac down that chute to the CM. Clean everything out all good.
The new CM I put on has 9 blades on it...I'm thinking that should be enough as i spun with my hand and just with hand spinning it created quite a draft. The "only" other thing that raised my eyebrows is....the new CM I put in... I noticed a hole going through where my gasket for the CM was off the hole in one spot...I sealed that up....I'm just now seeing what the stove will do...started it....I'll post my outcome....

 

[MainePellethead]

I'm holding my breath....I started up my stove....and I heard that infamous whistle from air that the burnpot normally makes...I hadnt heard that while my problems were happening....I "think" I might have solved my own problem. Hmm...crossing my fingers....it appears to be running MUCH better. I dont know which it was....but I'm guessing that hole I found through the gasket on the Combustion Motor might have been the culprit...hmm...

Thank you all very much.....this place NEVER fails to help out EVERY time...I appreciate the help. And...this summer I'll be taking the stove OUTSIDE to blow out...
.lol....what a mess.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Sounds positive! How many blades did the old CM have?

 

[MainePellethead]

The old CM has 11 blades....but the replacement blades appear maybe that they are a bit bigger blades...so maybe just having 9 with them being bigger maybe that makes up for the difference.
So far so good and have had it running for approx. a couple hours...Im convinced it was that small hole by the screw on motor...perhaps it was leaking some air from there or sucking in to much...either or...

 

[tjnamtiw]

I'm very skeptical of the 9 vs 11 blades. It would take some seriously larger blades to make up the difference. I would definitely be swapping out the fans. You may be happy now just because it's working but down the road............... At least, take the fan off the old one because you could be also looking at replacing the bearings in the motor and have a spare.

This sure does throw another question into the bag of questions we ask people who post about poor flame quality, doesn't it?