Lets talk about PE Alderlea T6 and the EBT...

[jwscarab]

First and foremost - I LOVE my T6 and if I had a do-over I would buy it all over again!!

But lets talk about the EBT.....

My EBT - I dont think it works consistantly. For the longest time, I had never seen it open at all. Yes, I laid there for a few hours - twice - waiting for it to open. Never did. Finally just the other day - I reloaded early in the cycle with new wood on a big pile of coals. I shut the air down to 10% after charring expecting it to cruise at 500-600 as usual. I look 1/2 hour later and it is just roaring flames everywhere - way too many flames for the air setting I had it on. I look under and wella - the EBT is wide open - and the stove top is pushing 800~

Thoughts are my EBT opening too late - it should have opened up as the temps rised and the closed as the stove ran and burned the fresh load - then opened back up as it cooled to burn off the coals.

My EBT opens when temps are already high - causing an almost overfire condition. Then closes as the stove cools back to normal cruising temps, and stays closed - and does not burn off coals. So it is basically set too high - or the spring is not rotating soon enough.

I basically think you cannot control the EBT to open when it should because the vairables are all over the place - temps, amount of coals, amount of wood, heat transfer time from stove top to EBT module, amount of ashes to not let temps thru to the EBT module.

I really think I could control the stove better if the EBT was removed - then the stove will do as you tell it - period.

I have considered asking for a new EBT unit via warranty - but I dont think it will help. The EBT cannot be controlled correctly with all the variables. Its a great concept - but not in actual usage. If one was to tie an electronic EBT system which opened and closed per stove top temps - now that would be way cool. I have no issues removing it and plugging the hole if need be - I think the stove will run great that way!

I really do love my stove - I would buy another on in a second again hands down. It is so easy to operate and performs great. I have only had to start it from scratch twice. Once when I bought it, and once when I went away for the weekend!! Long burn times for relight!

I just am not so sure about EBT setups......and I would rather have the EBT shut off than have it open when I dont need it.

Whats your thoughts??

 

[begreen]

One thing that makes it difficult to diagnose it that the EBT is out of sight unlike the VC draft damper. I don't have the patience or time to lie on my belly watching a mirror to see how it is working, but have thought of setting up a time lapse camera.

I love the T6 too, but it does seem like we're going through too much wood at times. Yet when it is slightly warmer outside, it's much better. The stove seems to burn quite differently with only a 10 degree difference in temperature. This weekend we went through about 30 cu ft of wood with it only 36 outside. Typical burn times were only 6-8 hrs. But at other times I have seen 14 hrs. I'm wondering if the additional mass of the Alderlea is throwing off the calibration for the EBT? If it was not recalibrated from the Summit, perhaps it is lagging in response? It would be great to get some observational feedback from Summit users that have observed their EBT over time.

 

[iceman]

i don't even know if mine works but i do know when i come home at 430-500pm i have more than enough coals and stove temp is 250-400 and i leave at 630 am so i just assume it works because of the long burns

 

[RAY_PA]

same here, iceman. I dont have a clue, but I load the stove at 10pm, let it get get going good then close the air down, at 7am, I have a huge bed of red hot coals and stove is usually 3-400

 

[madison]

Mine is about the same as ray and iceman, full load at 9 PM with a stovetop temp of ~300, stovetop temp increases to 500-650, throttle down completely in a couple stages by 10 PM. 300 - 400 stovetop at 6 AM. Full load of coals that when raked around will easily restart the new load of larger splits. Secondary burn patterns are definately different with different fuel size and loading orientations.

I do think that the amount of ash/coals, especially if piled up front may affect the EBT mechanism ("insulation"), burn patterns are different as the bed of coals/ash builds up. I have not attempted to observe the EBT mechanism directly.

jwsarab:
I had to remove the side panel of my T6 to get to the 3 screws that hold the door hinge to the side of the stove, as the door was not "plumbed" even with the stove front on the hinge side. When I did the dollar bill test it was extremely tight on the bottom, and loose on the top on the hinge side of the door. Was relatively easy to realign. I then had to retweak the door latch catch. The dollar bill test is now equal all the way around and the latch is much easier to close.

So if you are getting a "runaway fire", it maybe more than the EBT inlet that is letting excessive air into the firebox ie door gasket as above OR read on....

Also, if you ever have used the ash chute, a small piece of charcoal may prevent it from closing completely. I would strongly suggest double checking the ash chute for complete closure if you use this to clean out your stove and you notice an increased burn rate. The ash chute can get completely filled/covered with ash and coals, and not be an issue if it is cracked open, but when i cleaned out mine the other day, restarted the fire, i noticed that there was a "hot spot" above the ash chute, pulled out the ash pan and saw that there was a rice sized piece of charcoal preventing the chute from completely closing...

 

[begreen]

Good suggestions madison. I did check the ash drop, but havent closely inspected the door gasket sealing. Physically it's in good shape, but alignment would be another issue altogether. Worth a check.

 

[jwscarab]

Well I am not really having a run away fire issue - it was just that one time I noticed way too many flames than I should of had and the EBT was wide open. I normally dont have that issue, and when I did I found the leak - the EBT. I did check my door and ash chute tho. Great point, I agree! All is ok.

Most of my burns normally are fine. I run er up to temp, then shut er down. Then 8-10 hours later I still have tons of coals to relight (because the EBT never opened to keep the good burn going - which would also reduce coals)!! But I believe during my normal operating cycle the EBT has never opened.

BUT, if conditions are right (maybe no ashes protecting the EBT, long strong secondaries, higher temp before closing primary) then the temps get to the EBT and opens it (too late) - and it stays open and burns the load quick and hot. Now after the temps subside a bit, the EBT closes and stays closed - causing coal bed to last a long time!! This shortens my good burn time due to the EBT being open and burning the load quicker when I am already in full burn mode. The coals still seem to last a long time till I get home or wake up.

I guess I am thinking that when (when it ocasionally opens) my EBT opens later in the heat cycle than it should, and it does not coil past the open/close point and close on the hi temps, then it is doing me no good because it is supplying air at the wrong time and burning my load too quick.

I would bet others are burning with no EBT at all most of the time also. From what you guys describe, my cycle is usually just like Ice, Ray, Madison also - and that is a burn cycle without EBT opening at all.

 

[d.n.f.]

I am with Begreen.

I load the thing up with fir/pine at 10pm and wake up at 5am and find very few coals. If it is windy outside sometimes I get nothing. If it is still I will have more.

Maybe it is my wood (20 to high 20s % moisture as my first year burning at this house)? Will know better as I will have a two cords that are at 18 months for next year.

I am beginning to think I should have bought a Blaze King. My previous neighbour loads twice a day. Doesn't get stinking hot heat but I don't need that. Wife thinks they are butt ugly though....

 

[Ivy Frank]

This has been done already. If you go back and search, you'll find the threads.

The EBT is the most misunderstood concept in all of woodburning.

I read the patent, and it's pretty simple.

In order to extend a burn time, you need to burn less wood. Anybody brave enough to argue with that?

So what the EBT does is pretty simple.

During normal operating temps, the EBT is wide open, which means that the amount of air flowing into the unit is 100% controlled by the lever.

When the heat of the stove dies down sufficiently, a bimetallic spring causes the air coming in through the EBT to be reduced. The net effect of this is that when your fire is starting to dwindle, the EBT chokes off the EBT air supply and causes a reduction of the air flow, thus extending your burn.

That's the simple version.

So put differently, your EBT hole should be wide open until the unit drops below a certain temp, at which point your EBT should start to close off.

If you have your main lever closed off to low, and your unit is below the minimal EBT temp, then you'll be at minimum air flow.

With regard to the T6 burning more on certain nights, it could be a malfunctioning EBT, but more likely it's just the vagaries of the draft. Sometimes there's a wind moving in the right direction, and, combined with temps, you can have huge variations in the draft.

There really is only one explanation for burning more wood - more draft.

If it's constant, check the door seam.

If it's variable, it could be the EBT (unlikely with a bimetallic slide plate), but it could also be varying draft conditions.

Draft is caused by differential between house air mass and outside air mass, so, in theory, if your house is 5 or 10 degrees warmer, then you can expect your draft to be more forceful for any fixed outside air temp.


EDIT - I like the performance of the T6, but I wouldn't get another one - it's a dirt trap, and it throws zero heat off the sides and back. I suppose for an alcove installation that would be ideal, but the cast iron is literally touchable on the sides if the stove top temp is below 400. I have no way of knowing how much heat is lost by the cast iron trapping it and redirecting it into the stove, but there is no doubt that the cast iron acts as an insulator - the only question is how much.

 

[10-cc]

Hi, I have the same problem as Madison: the dollar bill test it was extremely tight on the bottom, and loose on the top on the hinge side of the door.

So basically overfire: If I load the stove to the max it will reach 1000 degrees at 18" from the stove top on the stove pipe. So I have to put a fan to cool it down.

But thanks to to Madison, I now know that the door can be aligned so the gasket fit tight.

Thanks again.

 

[madison]

Only other advice, Take your time, and don't rush.

The first time I tried and rushed I did not totally remove the cast side panel. I loosened just the top two bolts (just loosen them, you do not need to remove them) and tilted the panel. I adjusted the top of the door frame retightened the top two door hinge screws, door was still a little too tight at the bottom. I did not have the same resistance to the "dollar bill test" all the way around, but it was better, not perfect. AS soon as the stove warmed up on the first burn after the adjustment, there was a rather loud ping/pop. And i peered at the door hinge and noticed it shifted a bit, probably due to expansion of the firebox?

It is probably a half hour job if you are at all mechanically inclined.

The door latch now closes much easier, and the gasket is just snug all the way around. You will need an extension to a socket wrench with extensions to get to the cast iron door nuts. Only loosen the three panel bolts, that panel is heavy, and pulls straight out, watch your toes. A second set of hands would make it easier.

 

[d.n.f.]

No complaints about how much heat it throws out on mine. I like that you can actually sit by the stove while it is burning, unlike my neighbour's steel stove. I just don't like the burn times I am getting.

I live in a freaking windtunnel on the lake. We get crazy winds all the time from different directions. I am sure that is not helping my draft. I am not OAK, but the house is still not tight. It will be tighter shortly, but I doubt it will ever be close to being 'tight'. When a big gust picks up you can see the draw on the fire.
Door seems very tight.

Seriously thinking of putting in OAK. I just don't like hearing how much air this thing sucks in. Sucking all of my precious warm moist air. My precious...

 

[begreen]

This has been done already. If you go back and search, you'll find the threads.

The EBT is the most misunderstood concept in all of woodburning.

I read the patent, and it's pretty simple.

In order to extend a burn time, you need to burn less wood. Anybody brave enough to argue with that?

So what the EBT does is pretty simple.

During normal operating temps, the EBT is wide open, which means that the amount of air flowing into the unit is 100% controlled by the lever.

When the heat of the stove dies down sufficiently, a bimetallic spring causes the air coming in through the EBT to be reduced. The net effect of this is that when your fire is starting to dwindle, the EBT chokes off the EBT air supply and causes a reduction of the air flow, thus extending your burn.

That's the simple version.

Hey Frank, good to hear from you. As one of the EBT experts on this forum and now a T6 owner, your input is much appreciated.

Observing my stove, the EBT hole is normally closed, not wide open. I checked the door gaskets and they are sealing tight.

 

[snowtime]

Heres my 2 cents. Check your window gasket. Mine was installed improperly the top section was not even between the glass and stove. A match flame was sucked in like a freight train.
The T6 is extremely easy to use and i can get lots of heat or just small amounts. I consider it a very flexible stove. The big thing about it is the draft. Its very temperamental as far as draft is concerned. What I mean by that is you need a damper to make it work well inall situations. Of course we all have different draft situations and thats why we have different experiences. Mine has a 21' inside chimney and it acts very predictable down to 0F. I leave the damper open to 0F. Below that the stove wants to pull hard enough that the air control starts loosing effect. Thats when I start using the damper to restore the stoves good manners. At -35 and below I would loose much of my heat up the pipe if I did not have a damper. I found this out after we were snowed in so I had to rob a damper from one of our fishers out in the greenhouse. Next spring when we get out I am going to get a new damper and double wall for right above the stove.
For those of you that never really get high temps I think you do not need a damper. I suspect your draft is on the low side for this stove. One said that the sides do not get hot. Well the stove is designed to do this. It is a convection stove after all. I have found when its cold in the morning I am talking -40 or so and I want to heat the place up it is easy to get the stove up to 800 plus and believe me the sides do start putting out.
This stove is well engineered. I hardly ever have to clean the window, the stove starts easy and holds heat well.

As far as the EBT I do not have a clue. I suspect it is only noticeable to me when I am burning at the top end. Those 800 temps seem to have lots of air and the heat stays up even when the main air is shut.

 

[Ivy Frank]

Just checked mine - it's easy to check on the T-6 - pull the ash tray, it's right there, with the bleed hole in the center.

It was as closed as closed can be with the stove top at 450.

That is exactly opposite to what I would expect.

I'll monitor over the next few days and update.

The flap was loose and could be pushed up easily and would return to closed based on gravity, as noted in the patent.

The main air hole (non-EBT) is a simple hole that is 90% covered by the level when the unit is on low, and wide open (about 1.5 inch hole) when the unit is on high.

So my theory of operation, which is the same as what the patent says, seems to be in conflict with the evidence.

next load of quercus I'll fire her up to 700 and see what the EBT does. Will have to wait till morning to check lower temps.

 

[10-cc]

Thanks Madison for the tips.

The top portion of the door gasket got loose all by itself and kind of failed down out of its groove. When I wanted to reglue it back, I realized that PE did not use glue or silicon, they used black cement stove that gives more "thicknesses" to the gaskets so to speak. So you actually put more cement to where the gaskets is loss in order to get better fit.

FYI on the EBT, it opens up only when the firebox gets cool so it add more air to the stove for better combustion. I'll monitor it again as its seems lately, that it is not operating properly as I get a lot of unburned coals in the morning.

 

[begreen]

During normal operating temps, the EBT is wide open, which means that the amount of air flowing into the unit is 100% controlled by the lever.

When the heat of the stove dies down sufficiently, a bimetallic spring causes the air coming in through the EBT to be reduced. The net effect of this is that when your fire is starting to dwindle, the EBT chokes off the EBT air supply and causes a reduction of the air flow, thus extending your burn.

That's the simple version.

So put differently, your EBT hole should be wide open until the unit drops below a certain temp, at which point your EBT should start to close off.

If you have your main lever closed off to low, and your unit is below the minimal EBT temp, then you'll be at minimum air flow.

I finally got off my butt and pulled the ash pan. Watched the EBT for the past couple days. Seems like it may be busted. The pivot plate is never opening during the burn cycle. This is with stove top temps at 650, good reburn. This might explain some of the inconsistent behavior. I may put the stack damper back on once this is fixed, but for now I don't want to add too many variables.

According to Tom's stage 1, 2, 3 diagrams, the pivot plate should open up while the stove is hot and reburn starts until the stove is hot, then close when it is cooling down. (broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoebt.htm)

 

[North of 60]

I think VC bought PE out. :shut:

 

[jpl1nh]

I think VC bought PE out. :shut:

Yeeeouch!! Don't get too smug just cause you've got a BlazeKing! :lol:

 

[BrotherBart]

If I had that thing on my stove in short order it would be sitting on a shelf in the garage. The EBT unit, not the stove. :coolsmirk:

 

[jpl1nh]

I'm curious, do Summit owners have the same EBT concerns and issues. The Alderlea series has always been one of the stoves I've really admired, good looks, nice heating punch, good customer reviews, and ..EBT? :-S

 

[begreen]

If I had that thing on my stove in short order it would be sitting on a shelf in the garage. The EBT unit, not the stove. :coolsmirk:

As a no-op, that's what it effectively is doing right now. The Alderlea continues to be a good heater without it, but I'd at least like to be able to make an A/B comparison before dismissing the EBT completely.

 

[jpl1nh]

If I had that thing on my stove in short order it would be sitting on a shelf in the garage. The EBT unit, not the stove. :coolsmirk:

Next years model: PE Alderlea T6 X-EBT?

 

[BrotherBart]

If I had that thing on my stove in short order it would be sitting on a shelf in the garage. The EBT unit, not the stove. :coolsmirk:

As a no-op, that's what it effectively is doing right now.

Nah. It is sitting there waiting for somebody to load a Summit up with BioBricks and let it rip. Along about 750 stove top it opens up and the stove takes off like a rocket. Turning it Whorehouse Red even if the finish is actually black.

Why not just take the gasket out of the door glass. :lol: There is one or more of these goofy "get good GPH" things on every stove out there. And they need to be hunted down and disabled on every one of them. Stoves with secondary air input don't have to burn like the fires of hell to burn clean. They just need a little primary air. Controllable primary air.

"Sir we can't honor your warranty because the stove has been over-fired."

"But you designed it to do that."

"Yes we did. Funny how that works, ain't it?"

 

[North of 60]

I think VC bought PE out. :shut:

Yeeeouch!! Don't get too smug just cause you've got a BlazeKing! :lol:

Yes I know what you mean. :red: BUT I figured I could at least get the EBT (extended burn time) going in this thread since theirs isnt workin. :lol: OK Ill stop now and go fuss with my old fashioned outa date by-pass damper/Cat for Ivy Frank.