Location of spare refrigerator and freezer and heat pump water heater?

[DuaeGuttae]

Hello, Hearth folks.

My family of six is in the process of building a new home next door to my mother’s. The home has a partial basement that is unfinished but does have an insulated slab and will have insulation on the walls. There is a heat pump water heater being installed. There is no separate utility room. The basement is just an open space with a u-shaped staircase in the center with a door to the main floor that will mostly be closed. The water heater will be on the back wall somewhat behind the stairs.

We plan to use a spare refrigerator and upright freezer in the home, and these will be located in the basement. The electricians asked me yesterday to choose a spot for the electrical receptacle. I was wondering if there would be any benefit, however slight, for putting the refrigerator and freezer closer to the HPWH rather than farther away? It’s basically a choice of which side of the central staircase they go on. I’d be willing to walk around the stairs to the back of the basement to access the fridge if having the waste heat back there makes sense. If it’s a total toss-up in an open room, I may just put the outlet in the front of the basement stairs so that I walk straight down to the appliances.

Do you guys have any opinions or advice or cautions? I’d be grateful to hear them.

 

[begreen]

The refrig and freezer will emit some heat so it wouldn't hurt for them to be close by, but far enough away for easy servicing of the HPHW.

What is code there? Should there be an outlet every 12 ft per code? Not sure if that applies to basement, but how can one know future use?

 

[Max W]

If it’s a total toss-up in an open room, I may just put the outlet in the front of the basement stairs so that I walk straight down to the appliances.

Do you guys have any opinions or advice or cautions? I’d be grateful to hear them.

For me I’d go for the convenience. Even with the heat pump turned so the cooler exhaust was blowing directly toward the appliances any extremely small gain is not worth the trade off. After putting up vegetables and meat I want to access them easily. The easier it is the more I take advantage of it.

 

[stoveliker]

I agree with both: convenience first(minimal gains anyway because this is not a natural convection heat pump; turbulence from the fans is going to mix things anyway).
Having outlets spread around the space to enable future use allows you to move the appliances around to fit your usage best.

 

[Max W]

The refrig and freezer will emit some heat so it wouldn't hurt for them to be close by, but far enough away for easy servicing of the HPHW.

What is code there? Should there be an outlet every 12 ft per code? Not sure if that applies to basement, but how can one know future use?

I missed this post. Funny, I looked at it as the heat pump’s cool air output saving on frig/freezer consumption not those appliances aiding the heat pump input side. I guess in theory they would be symbiotic but thinking small differences and covection would pretty much wipe that out.

 

[DBoon]

Just put both in the most convenient locations. They will rarely be on at the same time anyways and the cool (from the HPWH) and warmer (from the freezer) will mix in the entire basement quickly enough anyways.

 

[gthomas785]

Unless you're constantly adding warm food to the fridge, the only net heat it creates will be from the power consumed, which is pretty low for newer fridges.

The heat pump water heater can sink some serious heat depending on your hot water usage, but in my experience the fan should do a pretty good job of circulating the air so you have a fairly even temperature distribution throughout the space (as long as you're not sitting right in front of the discharge fan)

 

[EbS-P]

I hope you are getting an 80 gallon unit. You will need all of it. The difference in recharge time when the basement is 60 degrees vs 70 when in heatpump only mode is hours.

Remember you need a drain for h the water heater. Might as well plumb for a wet bar /laundry sink ect… full bath????

They are not silent.

Plan ahead for the possibility that someone in the future will finish the basement. That means think about how to add the ducting kit to the heater. I personally think (and don’t have data )that the duct kits that draws warm air from the ceiling and discharges near the floor is much more efficient as it keeps the cold air from mixing.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

Thank you all for the responses. I appreciate the input.

The code for unfinished basements is simply to have one outlet. We will have at least four, but it would not be so many as in a finished space since this area will be mainly for storage. It does not have any windows, and I’m not sure that anyone would be likely to finish it out in the future, but I suppose there’s no telling.

At this point I’m thinking I’ll just plan to have the refrigerator and freezer near the bottom of the stairs for easy access. With our large family and lots of home cooking I use them frequently.

@EbS-P , we did opt for the eighty gallon tank for the new house, and I think it will seem luxurious to us. We’re living with my mom right now while the house is under construction. The seven of us have one full bath and a small hot water heater with the temperature turned down quite low. We are quite accustomed to rationing showers. Thankfully there’s a wood stove where we can warm up if we run out of hot water before the end of a shower. I’ll have to look into the ducting kit you mention. I’m not familiar with that.

 

[EbS-P]

Thank you all for the responses. I appreciate the input.

The code for unfinished basements is simply to have one outlet. We will have at least four, but it would not be so many as in a finished space since this area will be mainly for storage. It does not have any windows, and I’m not sure that anyone would be likely to finish it out in the future, but I suppose there’s no telling.

At this point I’m thinking I’ll just plan to have the refrigerator and freezer near the bottom of the stairs for easy access. With our large family and lots of home cooking I use them frequently.

@EbS-P , we did opt for the eighty gallon tank for the new house, and I think it will seem luxurious to us. We’re living with my mom right now while the house is under construction. The seven of us have one full bath and a small hot water heater with the temperature turned down quite low. We are quite accustomed to rationing showers. Thankfully there’s a wood stove where we can warm up if we run out of hot water before the end of a shower. I’ll have to look into the ducting kit you mention. I’m not familiar with that.

The ducting kit allows the HPWH to be installed in a small enclosed space. Totally not needed for an unfinished basement but many tend to get finished over time.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

The ducting kit allows the HPWH to be installed in a small enclosed space. Totally not needed for an unfinished basement but many tend to get finished over time.

Thanks.

 

[EbS-P]

Thanks.

Just remembered the use of the ducting kit may require larger clearance to walls and or ceiling

 

[Pinesmoke]

Do your research on the water heater. I was going to put one in our new place and after checking up decided against it. One of the main players was losing compressors and the other had issues with the condenser fan. Coupled with where we live finding a tech to work on it was difficult.

They may have sorted the issue out in the last year but do some digging.

 

[EbS-P]

Get a whole house surge protector at the main panel. Would have saved me 550$.

 

[Pinesmoke]

Yes.
I just ordered 5 commercial grades. 2 on the main breakers in the meter base, 2 for the 2 panels and a stand lone for the well head.

I take a real beating up here on the power lines.

 

[woodgeek]

Do your research on the water heater. I was going to put one in our new place and after checking up decided against it. One of the main players was losing compressors and the other had issues with the condenser fan. Coupled with where we live finding a tech to work on it was difficult.

They may have sorted the issue out in the last year but do some digging.

Can you name names please? Maybe with sources? Rather than talking someone out of a HPWH that can save them thousands of dollars over its life?

I was a HPWH early adopter. My AO Smith 80 gallon Voltrex is still going strong after 12 years, needing a new (free) control board in year 4 as the only maintenance. It has saved me close to 7 grand over the oil boiler system it replaced.

 

[Pinesmoke]

Google is your friend. This was research I did was 18 months back. I work with a guy who has a 10 yo AO Smith and yes, it cranks along. When I was looking not so much. I think the other one was Rudd but I don't remember for sure now.

If you go back and read I was saying to do your research, when I did and at that time I was persuaded to go another route. I am not a cheer leader one way or the other woodgeek. I just looked deeper the the manufacturer's websites.

 

[woodgeek]

Google is your friend. This was research I did was 18 months back. I work with a guy who has a 10 yo AO Smith and yes, it cranks along. When I was looking not so much. I think the other one was Rudd but I don't remember for sure now.

If you go back and read I was saying to do your research, when I did and at that time I was persuaded to go another route. I am not a cheer leader one way or the other woodgeek. I just looked deeper the the manufacturer's websites.

OK. But there have been naysayers since these things have been introduced. Everyone 'knows a guy' that had trouble with one, or can find a bad review on a website. Every plumber I have talked to hates 'em and told me they don't work.

And yet, here they are.

 

[stoveliker]

I don't have experience with them (but are eyeing them for when I need to replace my water heater).

However, it is good to note that googling gives a bias, just like on this website it appears the far majority of wood burners have problems with their stove (never their chimney or wood, of course...), just so googling these HPWHs gives a few reviews of folks that are happy and many complaints of folks that are not.
Why? Because when is the last time any of us spent time writing about something that just works well...

So, googling is not your friend if you wish to get a good view of the spectrum of experiences with an item out there.

My $0.02

 

[EbS-P]

The AO smith so easier to replace a control board. Tanks and compressors and electronics have 10 year warranty. Figure in an indoor environment the COP is somewhere between 4 and 5. Even paying $550 for labor on a warranty repair that’s about a years savings. It’s been running 4 years now. If you can get the tax credit it’s a no brainer. Don’t wait until you don’t hav hot water or a leaky tank has led to a mold problem (ask me how I know)

 

[Max W]

I can’t speak to the brand but the Rheem (Platinum) 50 gal unit that I put in to take over for the boiler has been running without a problem for the two of us for about six years. I didn’t research before buying . A great sale came up at Home Depot and that was combined with excellent Efficiency Maine rebate.

I wish I knew more about effeciency of this kind of heat pump at different cellar temps. Like is there a possible cellar temp when the COP goes close to 1? My cellar temp is 45 deg right now. The Rheem has four or five modes including electric.

A light just came on. When I installed the heater I was thinking that there was no good way for ducting to pass through to the outside to draw in the warmer weather. This year I filled cellar widow opening with plywood. The opening goes to an attached greenhouse. I bet running duct out there could save a heap (new measure of power) of electricity. Could either draw from the greenhouse or continue to an outside wall.

 

[woodgeek]

My problem is my 12 yo unit has a COP of about 2.2 if I recall, much worse than newer units. But at $20/mo I don't really care.

 

[EbS-P]

I can’t speak to the brand but the Rheem (Platinum) 50 gal unit that I put in to take over for the boiler has been running without a problem for the two of us for about six years. I didn’t research before buying . A great sale came up at Home Depot and that was combined with excellent Efficiency Maine rebate.

I wish I knew more about effeciency of this kind of heat pump at different cellar temps. Like is there a possible cellar temp when the COP goes close to 1? My cellar temp is 45 deg right now. The Rheem has four or five modes including electric.

A light just came on. When I installed the heater I was thinking that there was no good way for ducting to pass through to the outside to draw in the warmer weather. This year I filled cellar widow opening with plywood. The opening goes to an attached greenhouse. I bet running duct out there could save a heap (new measure of power) of electricity. Could either draw from the greenhouse or continue to an outside wall.

The short answer is as long as the unit allows you to use the heatpump it’s more efficient than the resistance elements. Of course if you have it hybrid mode it will prioritize quick recharge over efficiency.

 

[woodgeek]

I've left mine in HP only mode since it was installed. And I checked my energy monitor... it is using $10/mo. I think it was more when I had teens living with me.

 

[EbS-P]

Energy guide for an AO smith 80 Gallon unit. At rated consumption the savings is $53 a month at$0.16 kWh. We use more than rated I bet. These units must have the shortest ROI of any energy efficiency upgrade. Especially if you are swapping out an electric unit and don’t need any electrical work.