Looking For Some Advice...

[reggieohio]

I just bought a Century FW300011. You can see the manual here: (broken link removed)

I am trying to position the stove in such a place where I can go straight up with the piping and chimney, but because of the area I'm trying to put it and the cathedral ceiling studs, I need to move the stove closer to one wall than the manual calls for.

I'm putting the stove in a corner, at an angle. The manual says the back corner of the stove needs to be 12 inches from the wall on each side, and that the stove pipe needs to be 22 inches from the wall. Well, for one of those walls, I need to get the stove closer. I know that I can buy a wall shield or something to allow the stove to sit closer to the wall...I just have no idea what kind of wall shield I need.

Also...does a wall shield need to go from floor to ceiling? Or can I get by if it just goes to the top of the stove? If I use double wall piping, how will that effect things?

I've got everything pretty much figured out in my head except this part of the process. My manual seems rather lacking, and there's no listed phone number anywhere for CFM out of Ontario. I'm a little lost on this one...

-Reggie

 

[reggieohio]

Well, I just got off the phone with my local fireplace//stove shop and they informed me that if the manual said there has to be 12" between the stove and a wall, then it doesn't matter what kind of shield I put up, it has to be 12" away regardless. So...I guess I have to pick a new spot for the stove, evidently. They said that by using close-clearance, double-walled pipe I could solve that part of the problem (which I already knew), but there was no way to get around the 12" minimum requirement between the stove and a well.

Because of the crappy positioning of my ceiling studs, that means I'm out of luck.

-Reggie

 

[Jimbob]

........Or you could pick a different stove. Some stoves can be installed in the corner with as little as 3" clearance without any shielding. Double-wall pipe can be as close to the wall as 9" I believe.

(broken link removed to http://pacificenergy.net/product_vista.php)

Download the manual and look @ pg. 4.

If you bought the Century new, the store should take it back. If you bought it used you should be able to sell it for close to what you paid for it.

It's a good idea to check out the specs of a stove online before choosing a model. The manufacturer's websites usually have that info, even if it means downloading the owner's manual.

The Pacific Energy isn'y the only close-clearance stove out there, I just listed it as an example.
Hope this helps you.
Happy hunting. ;-)

 

[reggieohio]

That link doesn't work...and the CFM stove is already bought. In hindsight and for future reference, I'll have to pay more attention at the get-go.

But I'm a rookie in the wood-burning department, so call this one a beginners mistake. The wife and I will have to pick out a different spot for the stove I guess.

-Reggie

EDIT: Copy and pasted the full link...I see what you mean. That would have been a cool buy!

 

[Jimbob]

I fixed linky, and edited my post

 

[fossil]

Either your dealer didn't understand your question or he's just flat-out ignorant. The whole purpose of wall shielding is to allow reduction of the manufacturer's stated minimum clearances to combustibles. If your stove requires 12" without any sort of shielding, then you can reduce that all the way down to 4" (a reduction of 66%) with a properly constructed and installed shield. That distance is still measured from the combustible to the stove, not from the shield to the stove. There are a number of ways such shielding can be put together, but the key ingredients are non-combustible materials and a naturally ventilated 1" airspace between the shield and the combustible wall. Fear not, you'll be able to figure out a way to position that stove where you want to, it'll just take a bit more planning and work. We can help you with the planning...you're on your own to get the work done. Rick

 

[reggieohio]

Either your dealer didn't understand your question or he's just flat-out ignorant. The whole purpose of wall shielding is to allow reduction of the manufacturer's stated minimum clearances to combustibles. If your stove requires 12" without any sort of shielding, then you can reduce that all the way down to 4" (a reduction of 66%) with a properly constructed and installed shield. That distance is still measured from the combustible to the stove, not from the shield to the stove. There are a number of ways such shielding can be put together, but the key ingredients are non-combustible materials and a naturally ventilated 1" airspace between the shield and the combustible wall. Fear not, you'll be able to figure out a way to position that stove where you want to, it'll just take a bit more planning and work. We can help you with the planning...you're on your own to get the work done. Rick

See, this is what I was led to believe by reading various articles, but the person I spoke with was pretty adamant. I'll keep looking, but do you have any examples or pictures of something I can look at online to get an idea of what I'm trying to do? I obviously want to stay within legal regulations incase there ever is a fire (for insurance purposes), but it was be really convenient to be able to put the stove in that corner if at all possible.

-Reggie

(thanks for the replies)

 

[Jimbob]

.......And if you don't believe Rick ;-P , read Chapter 7 in the link below.
http://www.canren.gc.ca/prod_serv/index.asp?CaId=103&PgId=576

Lots of good info in there.
Print off the appropriate page and show it to that dealer.

 

[fossil]

It can be as simple as a sheet of 24 gauge sheet metal spaced 1" from the wall, or as complicated as a brick wall with a 1" airspace behind. Myzamboni in Silicone Valley has a stunning and elegant stainless steel shield wrapped behind his stove. My shop stove has a brick shield. Not a corner install, but I'll attach a pic. For a corner install, you'll most likely want to shield both walls. Rick

 

[fossil]

Another example...an old Lopi that was in our house when we bought it. They used shields made up of durock & ceramic tile, spaced 1" out from the walls. Rick

 

[reggieohio]

That looks really nice!

I only need to get below clearance numbers on one wall, but I guess if I want it to look nice, I'd need to put it on both walls for symmetry, huh?

 

[fossil]

Your call, Reggie...can't help you with that, way too subjective. Rick

 

[Jimbob]

It depends, if you use sheet metal painted to match the wall, you could get away with having it on only 1 side.

 

[KWillets]

The whole purpose of wall shielding is to allow reduction of the manufacturer's stated minimum clearances to combustibles. If your stove requires 12" without any sort of shielding, then you can reduce that all the way down to 4" (a reduction of 66%) with a properly constructed and installed shield.

As I understand it (i.e. what people told me on this forum) the 66% heat shield clearance reduction only applies to the NFPA (36-inch) clearance, not the manufacturer's tested clearances. The two systems can't be mixed.

 

[fossil]

Well, here's what NFPA 211 says:

12.6.2.1.1 Where the required clearance with no protection is 36 in. (914mm), the clearances in Table 12.6.2.1 shall be the minimum allowable clearances. For other required clearances with no protection, minimum allowable clearance shall be calculated from maximum allowable reduction.

(The italics are mine)

The way I read that and the accompanying table, is that the clearance reductions shown in the table stated as percentages are applicable to manufacturer's unshielded minimums. The actual measurements in the table simply represent the result of applyuing those percentages to the unshielded requirements for an unlisted stove, or one with no guidance from the manufacturer, in which case you start with 36" and go down from there. Starting from 36", with a 66% reduction gets you down to 12", which is as low as you can go. In the table, they've given you the percentage reductions allowed for different types of shielding, and then done the math for you in the case of an unlisted appliance. If you start with 18" unshielded minimum from the manufacturer and apply a 66% reduction with an approriate shield, the result is an allowable minimum of 6". That's the way I read it, anyway. Rick

 

[webbie]

Rick,

I have read it a little differently.......
yes, you have interpreted 12.6.2.1.1
BUT
look at the next section..

12.6.2.1.2
Unless listed for closer, the blah blah shall not be less than.......

That is the way I have always understood it.

In other words, if the owners manual and listing plate do not address clearances closer than that, you cannot use them. If they do, you can use THOSE, but not reduce them by percentages.

In terms of safety, there are a lot of situations which would not meet NFPA (which is a very generic standard) and still be safe. That is why many listings end up with the stove much closer. It is just that NFPA cannot be bothered with trying out all the various scenarios which may apply.

In the case of most modern stoves, it ends up being the manual and listing plate which are closer than generic.

 

[fossil]

Well, then, does that mean that if you have a modern stove with factory heat shields and the manufacturer says the minimum clearance behind it is XX inches, then you cannot reduce that XX inches by installation of a wall shield? That doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me, and that's why I think 12.6.2.1.1 is written the way it is, and why 12.6.2.1.2. has the word unless in it. Rick

 

[webbie]

Exactly what I think it means!

In fact, Vermont Castings used to present dozens of options on each stove - with and without shield, etc. just for that very reason.

A close clearance stove cannot be reduced more - unless specified in the manual.

That is my understanding....and, again, just of NFPA....which is limited.

 

[humpin iron]

Can not be reduced any further. Only if tested, then more info would have been added to installation guide. Companies no longer do the vast testing of days gone by, due to the expense and the limited application

 

[fossil]

Doesn't make any sense, just from a fundamental heat transfer standpoint. Guess I'll have to start ripping out my shop stove. Rick

 

[reggieohio]

I got to looking around on my stove...as it turns out, the stove has a sticker on the back that contains a VAST amount of information that was not in the manual, lol. I have no idea why they'd put all of that information on a sticker as opposed to putting it in the stove's manual, hahaha.

Anyway, the sticker on the back DOES mention clearances WITH a shield and WITH double-wall pipe. So apparently, without a shield I have to put the stove 15" from the wall (which puts me in no-man's land as far as the ceiling joist problem I mentioned earlier). WITH a shield, I can put as close as 10" to the wall. This is all according to the sticker on the back of my stove.

So apparently, had I put my stove 66% closer (as depicted by the tables I've been shown) that would have meant getting the stove as close as 5.1" to the non-combustible surface with a shield in place. According to the sticker on the back of my stove, though, I can only move the stove roughly 34% closer to the wall.

I'm only telling you all this for the sake of your discussion. I decided to play it safe and just use the 10" guideline on the sticker since that's within a ceiling joist anyway.

-Reggie

EDIT: And as a way of an update, I starting framing the hearth last night. I think I'm going to have real trouble finding a piece of sheet-metal to match the size I need for the wall shield. We'll see...

 

[thechimneysweep]

Our service area spans several code jurisdictions, each of which interprets various code specs differently. All happen to agree on this issue, however: where reduced clearances through site-built shielding are concerned, NFPA 12.6.2.1.2 is the limiting factor. Here's their interpretation:

Unless a given wood stove has been tested and listed for closer clearance, standard wall clearance is 36".

NFPA 211 allows reduction of wall clearances with site-built shielding, down to a minimum of 12".

No further reduction (below 12") is allowed, unless tested and listed by the manufacturer.

So, if you have a shielded stove that is listed for 12" wall clearance or less, and the manufacturer's listing doesn't specifically allow reduction of that clearance by wall shielding or other means, none of the code authorities in our area will allow reduction of the listed clearance.

Waitaminute: in rereading this post, it seems way too succinct: let's see if we can muddy the waters a bit.

Many manufacturers' listings do allow further reduction to already-reduced clearances, so check the listing on the stove in question before proceeding. Here's an example:

The Pacific Spectrum I heat my house with is factory shielded, and listed to 12" minimum rear clearance. No amount of wall shielding I might devise would get the local inspectors to sign off on any reduction to that 12" listing. However, the listing allows reduction of this clearance to 8" if shielded connector pipe is used. Essentially, what this listing tells me (and the code inspector) is that the stove tested safe at 8" clearance, but the lab found that single-wall pipe was too hot when the stove was that close. Use shielded pipe, and voila! Clearance reduction to 8" is allowed. Note: this doesn't mean we can take a similar reduction with any old stove by using shielded connector pipe if that reduction isn't specifically allowed in that stove's listing.

 

[fossil]

Well, I guess I just have to stop talking about shielding, as it appears I don't understand it in sufficient detail. I sincerely hope that nothing I've posted here has lead anyone to do something that shouldn't have been done. I'll just keep my naive lip zipped on the subject. :zip: Rick