California is ready to drag the rest of the US into the EV age
Other states are likely to follow.
www.theverge.com
Looks like CA drew the line on ICE engines 2035
- Thread starter peakbagger
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EbS-P
Minister of Fire
It’s a ramped target too. It will be interesting to see how the manufacturers respond and how other states handle the manufacturers response.Hydrogen is still in the running so it will be interesting what the fleet mix will be. Several other states (many in New England) have adopted CA standards in the past. Not so sure on this one unless someone solves the poor cold weather range of current batteries.California is ready to drag the rest of the US into the EV age
Other states are likely to follow.
Cold weather range reductions are real but don’t affect a really large portion of the population. I see it having more impacts on longer winter trips than daily commuting. I will keep an ICE on the road as long as I need to cover my long distance and cold weather needs. You may only get 1/3 miles out of a full charge but even 80-100 miles should cover a majority of the daily needs.
If hydrogen is in the running, I would suggest NH3 + ICE is still in the running too. Easier handling and storage and energy density, at the cost of NOx cleanup. Could be an easier retrofit for heavier vehicles.
If the NH3 economy gets picked up for shipping fuels... it could then spill into the onshore market.
If the NH3 economy gets picked up for shipping fuels... it could then spill into the onshore market.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
Maybe for a fleets but ammonia is nasty. There were only a couple jobs on the farm I wasn’t allowed to do alone as a teenager and hooking and unhooking ammonia tanks was one of them ( the other was entering a not empty grain bin). Was the only task where I remember being drilled about my PPE. Probably wasn’t up to OSHA specs but for men whe would just jump into a cow pen and think nothing if it to make sure I had and always used gloves goggles and face shield and always worked on/from the windward side I’m not sure I would want to mess with with it as a fuel.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
It’s different. Exposure has much more sever effects and it’s stored under pressure.
One source I just looked up said it’s dealt at 300 ppm. You be exposed to 200 ppm of gas while fueling your car. If anyone has reliable links please share I’m not confident mine are.
Edit… I could fill the mower with gas from the pumps by my self at age 8 or 9.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
I think it’s a different class. No one puts on PPE to pump gas.
The fire department doesn’t generally put on air tanks to clean up a gasoline spill. They will go full haz may suit for an ammonia spill.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
Riso: Safety assessment of ammonia as a transport fuel - NH3 Fuel Association
Risø National Laboratory, Roskilde, Denmark, February 2005 Authors: Nijs Jan Duijm, Frank Markert, Jette Lundtang Paulsen Download Riso: Safety assessment of ammonia as a transport fuel [PDF, 3.6 MB] Abstract This report describes the safety study performed as part of … Continue reading →
nh3fuelassociation.org
One can possibly find as many studies with opposing conclusions, but ..
(The page only has the abstract, the pdf can be downloaded.)
280-400 ppm tolerable for 0.5-1 hr )pg 63).
Anyway it's nastier than I thought.
Oh, so now you want your combustion fuels to not make you cry?
Joking aside, liquid ammonia IS toxic and nasty. But a liquid under pressure at room temps, not unlike propane (both are around 120 psi at RT). Similar inspection regimes would be required for tanks, and connecting/filling would need a special connector, like a propane filling station but with a purge. Not like filling a gasoline or diesel tank at all.
Bulk storage tanks would look like bulk propane storage, very different from H2.
Worried about crashes/leaks/etc? Bigger issues for hydrogen. Hydrogen has a high flammability and explosion potential that ammonia doesn't have. And stored at higher pressure that make it a bomb. A sudden leak in a small ammonia tank would be less energetic, and unlikely to explode. As suffocation/poisoning hazard yes. But as a gas it would quickly disperse and be diluted over a large area. And rain would wash it out of the atmosphere very quickly.
Joking aside, liquid ammonia IS toxic and nasty. But a liquid under pressure at room temps, not unlike propane (both are around 120 psi at RT). Similar inspection regimes would be required for tanks, and connecting/filling would need a special connector, like a propane filling station but with a purge. Not like filling a gasoline or diesel tank at all.
Bulk storage tanks would look like bulk propane storage, very different from H2.
Worried about crashes/leaks/etc? Bigger issues for hydrogen. Hydrogen has a high flammability and explosion potential that ammonia doesn't have. And stored at higher pressure that make it a bomb. A sudden leak in a small ammonia tank would be less energetic, and unlikely to explode. As suffocation/poisoning hazard yes. But as a gas it would quickly disperse and be diluted over a large area. And rain would wash it out of the atmosphere very quickly.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
It’s use as a refrigerant in confined spaces means it kills people with regular frequency. Leaded gas just made us dumber
not to say people don’t ever do dumb things with gas I’m sure it kills lots but we are or at least should be educated as to it’s inherent dangers.
Ammonia just isn’t a commonly handled product in the average persons life. One breath and it can just make you cough and feel like you can’t breathe. Get any on you and it just burns.
Generally we were working alone and could be 30 minutes away from help if we ever had an issue. Hoses didn’t have any safety features built in. Sure with the commercially available couplers with some safety considerations it could be a good fuel but
My parents could not recall any deaths in the county related to ammonia. Plenty were burned in gasoline related fires.
NH3 is technically more caustic than toxic. It is very soluble in water, where it rapidly ionizes to form a base, with a pH a couple points lower than lye.
IOW, a gas that forms a caustic base when it contacts mucus membranes, standing water, or skin.
From this source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK546677/
"Ammonia is among the most widely produced chemicals in the United States, a majority of which ends up as chemical fertilizers or as animal feeds. " and "The 2017 annual report of the American Association of Poison Control Center’s National Poison Data System reported 1846 single exposures to ammonia with 15 major adverse events and no deaths."
IOW, a gas that forms a caustic base when it contacts mucus membranes, standing water, or skin.
From this source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK546677/
"Ammonia is among the most widely produced chemicals in the United States, a majority of which ends up as chemical fertilizers or as animal feeds. " and "The 2017 annual report of the American Association of Poison Control Center’s National Poison Data System reported 1846 single exposures to ammonia with 15 major adverse events and no deaths."
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stoveliker
Minister of Fire
Yes, the gas stations there have special filling connectors, the lpg tank too. Technically it's a solved problem.
The question is what risk we are willing to take (as with any safety measure; there is a cut off for adding cost when one talks about one in a xxx year probability event). That Danish report I linked to above does go into these things too.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
Maybe more common than thought. The ammonia fumes were so strong in the pit toilet at a popular state park I was at a couple of days ago, that it made my eyes tear up. There was no ventilation in there and on an 90º day it was cooking.
A lot of RVs have ammonia absorption refrigs FWIW.
Hydrogen is also nasty stuff to handle. It is a real small molecule and loves to leak. Ammonia also leaks but its easy to detect. Hydrogen does not smell and generally when it does leak the first indication is fire. Hydrogen flames burn with almost no color until it start to burn other materials.
Ammonia is used in Tier 4 stationary diesels for NOx control. Its heck of lot cheaper than using DEF. DEF is converted to ammonia upstream of the catalyst but it eats up power as it needs to evaporate and convert into ammonia before it can clean up the NOx. On stationary engines and turbines they use either aqueous ammonia or on large applications anhydrous ammonia. Anhydrous is super nasty stuff.
Ammonia is used in Tier 4 stationary diesels for NOx control. Its heck of lot cheaper than using DEF. DEF is converted to ammonia upstream of the catalyst but it eats up power as it needs to evaporate and convert into ammonia before it can clean up the NOx. On stationary engines and turbines they use either aqueous ammonia or on large applications anhydrous ammonia. Anhydrous is super nasty stuff.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
This whole plan hinges on affordable BEVs across all sectors. The complete phase out will have a lot of loop holes. Like the whole car subscription thing wil they ban the registration of ICE cars??
There will be plenty of companies that spring up to get around this in states that ban sales of ICE cars. How about used will they stop used cars from being sold? A dealer titles it drives it around the block or uses it as a liner car now it’s used and never been sold as a new car.
Look I’m all for it but we need to have afford options and enough infrastructure to make the decision easy.
There will be plenty of companies that spring up to get around this in states that ban sales of ICE cars. How about used will they stop used cars from being sold? A dealer titles it drives it around the block or uses it as a liner car now it’s used and never been sold as a new car.
Look I’m all for it but we need to have afford options and enough infrastructure to make the decision easy.
13 years is a long time for the prices and tech to change. Just look at the market in 2022 versus 3 or 4 years ago, Range is going up, far more companies have gotten into it and as production goes up costs go down.
Of course, everything could change if the US swings right this midterms and goes ultra right during the next presidential cycle.
Of course, everything could change if the US swings right this midterms and goes ultra right during the next presidential cycle.
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
Regulations bring innovations. The US introduced smog standards, the domestic MFGs sat on their hands and said it couldn't be done, in comes Honda, Datsun, etc. to steal their lunch. At least this time around the domestics are willing to play ball instead of balk and pay for it.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
Plug in hybrids are great during the transition as the manufacturers can use existing platforms, but the way for the price to come down is new EV only platforms like GMs Ultium. The Bolt is scheduled to die quickly as its not an Ultium platform ( I think it uses the old Spark platform). Ford admits they could build a far better light EV truck on a dedicated platform but they used the F150 as they had it. Plug in hybrids are going always be expensive as they have lots of parts.
Look at the Tesla truck, it was announced before the Lightning. The Tesla is designed on a new platform and its likely GM will have the Hummer and electric GMC out before the Cyber truck hits the showrooms. I personally look forward to see what a designed from scratch EV platform will look like and sell for when GM and Ford gets in the game.
Had to do a general edit is as I had a brain fart and called a plug in hybrid a plug in EV
Look at the Tesla truck, it was announced before the Lightning. The Tesla is designed on a new platform and its likely GM will have the Hummer and electric GMC out before the Cyber truck hits the showrooms. I personally look forward to see what a designed from scratch EV platform will look like and sell for when GM and Ford gets in the game.
Had to do a general edit is as I had a brain fart and called a plug in hybrid a plug in EV
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