LP Gas Leak or Sensitivity?

[seawaif3]

Hello Gas Stove Experts,
I posted a message in September about a Whitfield LP gas stove that came with the new home purchased in May of this year. I had a tank setup in October and the gas company of course checked for leaks and fired up the stove. -- Good to go. A week later when turning on the stove, there a plume of gas that came out. I turned off the gas at the tank. The gas company came back out and declared nothing wrong with the lines. And that I should have stove professionally cleaned. I had to wait a month, but the stove company came out 11/22/21. The technician cleaned the stove and declared it - Good to go. A few days later I noticed that my mouth was burning terribly. I thought I had something wrong with me. I then figured out that this was a symptom of LP gas poisoning. Again, I turn off the gas at the tank. Gas company came out yesterday- 12/2/21. Declared no leaks in the line, stove operation seems to be good. "Call the stove company back out".

Is it me or the gas stove? Are any of you experts aware of people having an allergy to LP Gas? Is there possibly a leak that is going undetected?

** Note** I did have family here for the Thanksgiving holiday and when I checked back with them. They did not notice anything for the long weekend they were here.

Your input would be greatly appreciated as I need to figure out what to do next. Get rid of the whole thing for good, upgrade or go another route with a fake electric stove. The brick hearth is the center piece of the house. I would hate to let that space go to waste.

Kat - 6 of 9 lives remaining.

 

[coaly]

No such thing as LP gas poisoning. Vapor is not toxic. If the concentration is strong enough it displaces oxygen in the air and effects of oxygen depletion can occur.

Did the stove possibly get hotter than it ever has curing the paint on stove or pipe? Was it while it was burning? Dust settles on the stove and will smell with first firing of the season. That can give you a very scratchy throat.

Can you smell the odorant used in propane, and know what it smells like? Not everyone can, A good propane company will take you out to the supply and crack the fill spitter to show you what it smells like to make sure you can smell it.

 

[Corey]

Agree with everything above. Generally, you can smell the odorant in propane long before any effect of the gas is noticed. Even if you are 'immune' to the smell, someone at Thanksgiving surely would have noticed.

Not sure what you mean by 'a plume of gas came out'... is this meaning the stove didn't light? or a pipe was loose? Either way, sounds like that problem is fixed and happened way in the past?

Here is a link to some 'burning mouth' info from the Mayo Clinic...not sure if this is of any help or not, but may have other possibilities for consideration.

Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic

 

[seawaif3]

Thank you to all that responded to my query.

Here are my responses to your messages.

No such thing as LP gas poisoning. Vapor is not toxic. If the concentration is strong enough it displaces oxygen in the air and effects of oxygen depletion can occur.

Here is what I found when trying to figure out what may be causing my symptoms.

(broken link removed)

Propane poisoning: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

Propane is a colorless and odorless flammable gas that can turn into liquid under very cold temperatures.

medlineplus.gov

First Aid for Propane Poisoning - DoveMed

Learn in-depth first aid information on Propane Poisoning, regarding its causes, signs and symptoms, how to administer, prognosis, and prevention.

www.dovemed.com

Propane poisoning Information | Mount Sinai - New York

Learn about Propane poisoning or find a doctor at Mount Sinai Health System.

www.mountsinai.org

Did the stove possibly get hotter than it ever has curing the paint on stove or pipe? Was it while it was burning? Dust gat settles on stove will smell with first firing of the season. That can give you a very scratchy throat.
The answer to this question is no. The stove was professionally cleaned less than two weeks ago. Having downloaded and read the manual for this Whitfield gas stove prior to tank setup. I understood at what levels the flames should be burning at and how to properly arrange the ceramic logs. I showed the technician cleaning the stove the manual so he could see the photos from the manual the log arrangement and flame heights. Then questioned him about flame heights- which seemed to me a bit higher than what the photos in the manual showed. He said he did not see a problem.

Can you smell the odorant used in propane, and know what it smells like? Not everyone can, A good propane company will take you out to the supply and crack the fill spitter to show you what it smells like to make sure you can smell it.
The gas odorant is quite noticeable at ignition of the stove. Being that the stove is located at the center of my 1000 sq ft home, the gas from ignition floats into my dining room and seems to linger in that room. Which is where I work from home. Another area that the gas floats into after ignition is a corner of my living room where I recline in the evening. The gas company technician that was here on Monday of this week walked into my house and stated that he smelled gas. I asked him how he could smell gas if I turned off the tank the night before. He said - I got a " whiff" of gas when I walked in.


Agree with everything above. Generally, you can smell the odorant in propane long before any effect of the gas is noticed. Even if you are 'immune' to the smell, someone at Thanksgiving surely would have noticed. I agree with this statement, the only time I could smell the gas was at ignition of the stove.

Not sure what you mean by 'a plume of gas came out'... is this meaning the stove didn't light? or a pipe was loose? Either way, sounds like that problem is fixed and happened way in the past? This occurred after turning on the heater at the thermostat, the stove did not ignite right away. Releasing strong smell (plume) of gas throughout the house. And as noted previously, I turned off the gas at the tank as there seemed problem with ignition with the stove. The issues with this stove and tank are still in question.

Before posting to this forum, I did consider and researched other causes. I do have health issues such as hypothyroidism. However, there were other symptoms in addition to the mouth burning that I was experiencing. There was lightheadedness, brain fog, fatigue and what may have been hallucinations. These symptoms I discounted to some degree that they may related to the gas stove. The symptoms noted previously can be a sign of very low thyroid levels. But 3 weeks ago, I had my thyroid levels checked and given a clean bill of health. It was the sudden onset of the burning mouth after the gas was turned back on is what lead me to research other possibilities. No oral remedy seemed alleviate the symptoms. I have never had that problem before in the 30+ years of hypothyroid disease and thyroid cancer. I had to look what changed in my environment- I live alone out in a country setting, I work from home. The only change in my environment was that the gas was turned back on 11/22/21 and a couple of days later the onset of these aforementioned symptoms. If my family members did not notice anything. Then I may have to consider that 1. I have a higher sensitivity to the smell of gas. 2. That there might a cumulative effect, i.e. The family was here only 3 days with lots of comings and goings, whereas I was in the house for the whole time the gas was turned on.

As a final note to this posting. Since the gas has been turned off to my house the symptoms have subsided, a slight lingering burning of my lips remains. I woke up this morning much clear headed and less fatigued. There have been no changes to medication, diet or lifestyle. The only change is that the gas/stove have been turned off.

Thanks Again for your replies
Kat - 6 of 9 lives remaining.

 

[coaly]

Thank you to all that responded to my query.

Here are my responses to your messages.

No such thing as LP gas poisoning. Vapor is not toxic. If the concentration is strong enough it displaces oxygen in the air and effects of oxygen depletion can occur.

Here is what I found when trying to figure out what may be causing my symptoms.

(broken link removed)

Propane poisoning: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

Propane is a colorless and odorless flammable gas that can turn into liquid under very cold temperatures.

medlineplus.gov

First Aid for Propane Poisoning - DoveMed

Learn in-depth first aid information on Propane Poisoning, regarding its causes, signs and symptoms, how to administer, prognosis, and prevention.

www.dovemed.com

Propane poisoning Information | Mount Sinai - New York

Learn about Propane poisoning or find a doctor at Mount Sinai Health System.

www.mountsinai.org

Did the stove possibly get hotter than it ever has curing the paint on stove or pipe? Was it while it was burning? Dust gat settles on stove will smell with first firing of the season. That can give you a very scratchy throat.
The answer to this question is no. The stove was professionally cleaned less than two weeks ago. Having downloaded and read the manual for this Whitfield gas stove prior to tank setup. I understood at what levels the flames should be burning at and how to properly arrange the ceramic logs. I showed the technician cleaning the stove the manual so he could see the photos from the manual the log arrangement and flame heights. Then questioned him about flame heights- which seemed to me a bit higher than what the photos in the manual showed. He said he did not see a problem.

Can you smell the odorant used in propane, and know what it smells like? Not everyone can, A good propane company will take you out to the supply and crack the fill spitter to show you what it smells like to make sure you can smell it.
The gas odorant is quite noticeable at ignition of the stove. Being that the stove is located at the center of my 1000 sq ft home, the gas from ignition floats into my dining room and seems to linger in that room. Which is where I work from home. Another area that the gas floats into after ignition is a corner of my living room where I recline in the evening. The gas company technician that was here on Monday of this week walked into my house and stated that he smelled gas. I asked him how he could smell gas if I turned off the tank the night before. He said - I got a " whiff" of gas when I walked in.


Agree with everything above. Generally, you can smell the odorant in propane long before any effect of the gas is noticed. Even if you are 'immune' to the smell, someone at Thanksgiving surely would have noticed. I agree with this statement, the only time I could smell the gas was at ignition of the stove.

Not sure what you mean by 'a plume of gas came out'... is this meaning the stove didn't light? or a pipe was loose? Either way, sounds like that problem is fixed and happened way in the past? This occurred after turning on the heater at the thermostat, the stove did not ignite right away. Releasing strong smell (plume) of gas throughout the house. And as noted previously, I turned off the gas at the tank as there seemed problem with ignition with the stove. The issues with this stove and tank are still in question.

Before posting to this forum, I did consider and researched other causes. I do have health issues such as hypothyroidism. However, there were other symptoms in addition to the mouth burning that I was experiencing. There was lightheadedness, brain fog, fatigue and what may have been hallucinations. These symptoms I discounted to some degree that they may related to the gas stove. The symptoms noted previously can be a sign of very low thyroid levels. But 3 weeks ago, I had my thyroid levels checked and given a clean bill of health. It was the sudden onset of the burning mouth after the gas was turned back on is what lead me to research other possibilities. No oral remedy seemed alleviate the symptoms. I have never had that problem before in the 30+ years of hypothyroid disease and thyroid cancer. I had to look what changed in my environment- I live alone out in a country setting, I work from home. The only change in my environment was that the gas was turned back on 11/22/21 and a couple of days later the onset of these aforementioned symptoms. If my family members did not notice anything. Then I may have to consider that 1. I have a higher sensitivity to the smell of gas. 2. That there might a cumulative effect, i.e. The family was here only 3 days with lots of comings and goings, whereas I was in the house for the whole time the gas was turned on.

As a final note to this posting. Since the gas has been turned off to my house the symptoms have subsided, a slight lingering burning of my lips remains. I woke up this morning much clear headed and less fatigued. There have been no changes to medication, diet or lifestyle. The only change is that the gas/stove have been turned off.

Thanks Again for your replies
Kat - 6 of 9 lives remaining.

From Solrayo link posted above;

Notice at the end of an entire article about propane poisoning;

Wrapping it up​

"As with methane and butane, propane is not poisonous."

It does mention propane EXHAUST poisoning. Well yeah, we call that Carbon Monoxide.
So much for an article on poisonous propane. LOL

When you get extremely low on propane, pressure drops and you can get a gas smell. With it shut off outside, there should not be any sign of it indoors as long as the service valve on the tank or cylinder shuts off completely. The gas is heavier than air, drops to the floor, and can be swept out doorways with a broom. What makes LP very safe is that it mixes with air readily, becoming too lean to burn. So the dense mixture at floor level can be too rich to burn , and the mixture near ceiling is too lean to burn. It can flash where it is mixed at about 70 buckets of air to 1 bucket of gas. The only residual smell you should have is when liquid propane is handled. The odorant is what you smell, not the gas itself, and it is made using skunk oil, expressed from the scent glands of skunk to increase the odor of the odorant, ethyl mercaptan. There may be individuals susceptible to that. The oil does leave a residue that spiders and animals sense. Being around the vapor and liquid over 20 years, I had lost most sense of smell, but that sense has returned after being away from it since retiring in 2007. The oil truck drivers thought we stunk like propane and us LP guys thought the oil truck drivers smelled worse than us. It never affected us health wise.

Delayed ignition can cause a smell, but you also have a diverter on the back of a vented gas appliance that the chimney vent system allows indoor air to rise in and mix with hot exhaust gasses, cooling them in the stack. So that tends to purge the area around the stove. When an exhaust system isn't high enough, the first few seconds to about 10 seconds or so will spill back into the room behind the stove. There is a temperature switch there called a spill switch that shuts down the gas coming in on safety when it senses heat from the exhaust not rising up the chimney. Has this ever shut down or gone out on safety?

Certainly sounds like you did everything right and log placement is correct. They get black with soot real quick when flames touch them. That is called flame impingement, and leads to smells as well, which is unburned fuel and carbon deposits. Is this creating any black deposits anywhere in the firebox? Like on the inside at top? When extreme, they look like a black wasp nest hanging there, caused by yellow flame. The color in your photo looks extremely high and yellow. Do they burn blue right down at the burner level? The blue flame is hotter, and designed to burn off the carbon produced from the yellow flame tips. When a burner is not adjusted properly, there can be no blue at the bottom, and the yellow carbonizing flame causes smells and soot. There is normally strong blue flame like a pencil point at each hole in the burner, then the blue flame becomes one larger blue area below where it turns yellow. The less yellow tips, the hotter the flame. When burned clean, it will be all blue such as a range top or oven burner. These burners are detuned with less air than optimal to create yellow flames resembling a wood fire. Vented units can detune more, burning prettier yellow than ventless since you shouldn't be breathing the exhaust from vented units. These are the things the service tech should be looking for.

Do you know if he did a pressure test with a gauge at the appliance?
Is this the only appliance on the LP system?

In my experience with similar issues, the gas company was called first to confirm supply pressure was correct. They referred to stove dealer as an appliance problem, who couldn't figure it out. Somehow referred to me, being in the propane service business on a referral basis from 2 propane companies, and found less than adequate vent height caused poor air flow into burner and spillage at diverter. They would also go out on safety at times.

 

[seawaif3]

When you get extremely low on propane, pressure drops and you can get a gas smell. With it shut off outside, there should not be any sign of it indoors as long as the service valve on the tank or cylinder shuts off completely.

I recall the gas company tech telling me this when I asked if I would smell gas. Since the tank setup was completed at the end of October, I basically have a full tank of LP Gas. Probably burned in total about 8 +/- hours of fuel on a 120 gallon tank.

With it shut off outside, there should not be any sign of it indoors as long as the service valve on the tank or cylinder shuts off completely.

Currently not smelling anything other than anxiety.

There is a temperature switch there called a spill switch that shuts down the gas coming in on safety when it senses heat from the exhaust not rising up the chimney. Has this ever shut down or gone out on safety?

I don't know the answer to this question. I don't know if that spill switch is functional. The stove when running did shut off it seems when it reached the thermostat temperature setting.

Here is a snapshot from the manual: This stove is a Whitfield Vision (WG-1) Date on the stove is 1996.
The Vision gas room heater is equipped with a safety control system designed to protect against improper venting of combustion products. Provisions must be made to ensure an adequate supply of combustion and ventilation air.
The Vision (WG-1) gas stove has a 3-inch 'B' vent flue collar and must be installed with listed '0' vent pipe and components.

They get black with soot real quick when flames touch them. That is called flame impingement, and leads to smells as well, which is unburned fuel and carbon deposits. Is this creating any black deposits anywhere in the firebox? Like on the inside at top? When extreme, they look like a black wasp nest hanging there, caused by yellow flame. The color in your photo looks extremely high and yellow.

The stove prior to tank setup and cleaning there was a big a pile of soot at the bottom of the fire box and black burn marks on the logs. Instinctively I knew that was not right. I then learned from reading the manual about flame impingement. I took photos and pointed out to both gas company and wood stove techs the amount of soot. I peppered both with lots of questions about the venting, soot, operation and expectations. The gas company guy was vague in his responses and referred me back to the stove company. The stove company technician told me there was no adjustment for the flame height. His comments when he first arrived was" I worked on a gas stove like this one once". After cleaning and testing He said that that everything is working properly.

Do they burn blue right down at the burner level? The blue flame is hotter, and designed to burn off the carbon produced from the yellow flame tips.

Yes, as far as I could tell the burner flames were blue. But view was blocked by the logs so I could not see all of the burner. The pilot light also looked blue and if I recall with yellow tips

Do you know if he did a pressure test with a gauge at the appliance?
Is this the only appliance on the LP system?

I do not believe a pressure test was done on the stove appliance. I did not see any gauges, or a tool used that would indicate that the stove was pressure tested. I have only this stove on LP.

I really want to have this stove up and running. There is nothing sweeter than the heat and comfort it provided when working. So far it has cost me about $700.00 and I still cannot use it. The cost for the tech to come out again will be somewhere around $300.00 and will have to wait another month for him to get out here. I'm tapped out.

I live in a rural retirement community (oldest in the USA) in SW Washington. First established as a logging camp in 1923. It became a retirement community in 1953. My house was built in 1923. What I have learned since buying this house in May is that it is very hard to get competent and reliable service/help. I have found it best to do it myself. So far, I have had to tear out and reinstall floor joists, subflooring and flooring, reinstall a kitchen sink and do assortment of repairs and updates. At 63 years old I did not think I would be adding all these new skills to my resume.

I'm vacillating between getting rid of the whole LP set up and just putting in a fake electric fireplace heater stove. Or waiting until I can afford to replace everything. Installing it myself. That way I know it is done safely and correctly.

Thanks again
Kat - 6 of 9 lives remaining.

 

[coaly]

One of the main reasons to have one of these heaters is having heat during a power outage. I use them in my rentals as a back up, and if a furnace malfunctions, it gives me time to fix it without them being totally out of heat.

When a unit goes out on safety, the pilot goes out as well as the main burner. You would have to relight the pilot.

Do you know if they did a leak down test to make sure you have no propane leaks? That should be the first thing a gas would do. They could have connected the gauge outside. By tapping into the system with a test tee, or at a test port, the gauge reads system pressure. The valve is turned off at the tank and pressure is reduced by bleeding some off in the system until the gauge reads a lower pressure. This way any leak allows the gauge to drop immediately and you can see it hold pressure. 10 inches water column for 10 minutes is a legal leak down test. Then you know you have a sealed system. This is the only way you can guarantee no leaks by seeing it holds pressure. .Then the main valve is turned on, and pilot lit. Soap solution is used to check pilot tubing since when the leak down test is done, the appliance is off, with no flow through the safety valve. With no leaks found on the pilot system it is safe to turn on main burner.

Reasons for delayed ignition are a weak pilot flame, it should be strong like a little torch, not a lazy yellow flame. It should be blue. The flame should ignite the gas coming out of he main burner right away. This is when you have a lag and get the gas smell if it doesn’t ignite quickly. You have to remove logs to see the pilot light the main burner correctly. There are sometimes a line of tiny holes leading from pilot to main burner holes. They can get dust inside the burner tube and appear as white powder around the holes. This is a part of cleaning the burner tube that allows smooth ignition. Another cause of delayed ignition can be dust or spider web in the main burner tube where the air comes in at the gas orifice. It is an opening in the end of the burner tube that air enters the tube to mix with propane gas. The length of the burner tube before the holes where the air/fuel mixture comes out of the burner holes is called the mixing tube. This is where air and fuel mix before coming out of all the burner holes. If you have blue right down to the burner, that is a sign of proper mixture.

There should be a gas valve close to the appliance on the gas line. Normally the valve is turned across the line to turn off, with the line is on. I would turn that valve off, then go out and turn the gas on. See if you smell anything, and leave it in his position until you are sure there are no odors of gas anywhere and you have not symptoms. When you’re sure there are no odors, turn the gas valve on in the line that supplies the stove. Again let it set until you are sure you smell nothing and have no symptoms. This will take the LP supply system out of the equation and know it is an appliance issue.

Next light only the pilot. Leave safety valve in pilot only position. Do not turn on thermostat. Allow the pilot to remain lit for hours or overnight.

If you have no smell or symptoms, remove logs. Turn thermostat up, calling for heat. As you turn safety valve to ON, keep your hand on the valve knob in case pilot does not ignite main burner immediately. If there is a lag of more than a few seconds, turn safety back to pilot only. If that happens, that is the point in time the raw gas is coming in without igniting.

Another thing to make sure of is when main burner ignites, make sure all of the burner ignites. Some burners are U shaped, others can be more than one straight tube connected by smaller tubes called crossover tubes that allow the flame to light the second half of the burner. It does not burn it to run without logs in place.

 

[coaly]

Once you're sure the burner lights correctly every time, if you start to smell anything it could be due to venting.

Where the outlet connects to the stove, on the back will be a large opening like a shoe box facing downward. This is the diverter intake, or diverter hood. As lighter than air hot exhaust rises up the stack, atmospheric air pressure pushes into the diverter which allows indoor air to slip up the stack along with hot exhaust. This cools the pipe since it is not a high temp rated pipe like used on a wood or coal stove. When the main burner lights, you have cold air in the exhaust pipe which needs to be raised out by the hot rising gasses. This takes some time to rise in the stack, mixing with the cooler air, and rising upward. Before you have good flow moving up the stack there is a period of time that you will get a certain mount of spillage of exhaust down the diverter opening. This should only be for a short period of time, 15-20 seconds maybe until the draft upward starts allowing the indoor air pressure to push up the stack with the exhaust. This is where the correct chimney height comes into play. Anything less than the required height or resistance allows too much spillage. There is a temperature sensitive thermal switch in the diverter housing that will shut the gas off going into the appliance, extinguishing the pilot and stoping the flow of gas into the safety valve. That is when you would hear an audible click an sth unit shuts down, needing to be relit. When the main burner lights, it is common practice to shake a match out under the diverter hood to watch the smoke be pushed back into the room, or start to be drawn up the stack. An incense stick works well, and shows exactly how long it takes from ignition of main burner to start the draft. This can be when you smell anything from the unit pointing to a venting issue.

Other things do happen with gas burners, such as crayons falling in. I've found melted ping pong balls, plastic toys, animal hair, all making nasty smells. Since this burner does burn indoor oxygen if no outdoor intake is provided, hair spray, candle wax, cigarette smoke and crayons have an effect on the combustion, but being vented it should be removed out of the chimney. Vent free heaters burn indoor oxygen and should burn clean enough to actually become an air scrubber, but these aromatic things in the air can create all kinds of smells and colored flames which is a big advantage of a vented unit. Another possibility is that someone painted the pipe, or some part of the stove. High temp paint cures with heat and will smell the first few firings until fully cured.

 

[coaly]

Looking the manual over, I see this has a glowing embers burner in the front. Is this burner covered with the fluffy mineral wool correctly? It looks like loose rock wool insulation. Only the edges of it glow when heated, so it doesn't lay on the burner or get crushed down tight. You can remove it and place it properly if it was never pulled apart in little pieces to give as many edges as possible. Breaking it up in small pieces smaller than your fingernail, dime size or smaller, then lay on burner just enough to cover burner. If it has the wrong material or packed wool without pulling it apart it can lay there like a blanket preventing ignition of that burner. I would hope the appliance servicing tech would know that.

 

[velvetfoot]

They make propane/natural gas detectors you can buy. Handheld or mounted like a smoke detector. I should buy one too since we have a propane stove, lol, although the mercaptin has a pretty distinctive smell.