Magnum ZC woodburning insert -- Can't find any reviews.

[pmancoll]

Has anyone used or had experience with a Magnum ZC (zero-clearance) woodburning fireplace insert? It's made by American Energy Systems, their website is http://www.magnumheat.com/

I'm thinking of getting one but am concerned that I can't find any reviews on them. (except for in the testimonials section on the manufacturer's website -- but I don't trust those to be impartial ;=) )

I would ask local dealers, but there don't seem to be any good dealers in my area (VA suburbs of Washington, DC). In fact, the nearest place is called "Woodburners Two", and they don't display woodburning appliances anymore since they switched to natural gas inserts - I think they should be forced to change their name ...

 

[jtp10181]

Why are you looking at this particular product? Price? Look?

You might have better luck looking for a Heat & Glo "Northstar" or Quadrafire "7100". There are quite a few dealers for these products in that area.

(broken link removed to http://www.quadrafire.com/dealerLocator/USCanada.asp)
http://www.heatnglo.com/dealerLocator/USCanada.asp

 

[pmancoll]

It's funny, I had thought about putting into the post why I'm looking at this product: but then thought, "people won't want to read that".

Main reasons why I like this product:
-- Price: The price I was quoted seemed great, compared to the other prices I've seen online. They offered a 25% discount if I ordered this month, which set the price to between $1,300 and $1,350, plus about $200 estimated for shipping.
-- Initial customer service: Their website was nice and informative. Plus, when I called the toll-free number on the bottom of the page, an actual employee who knew the product answered and was interested in answering questions. There wasn't a dealer for a woodburning insert near me, and she spent almost 40 minutes on the phone answering questions, researching stuff, and writing up a quote. Mainly, they were will to give information instead of just referring to non-responsive dealers.
-- Ease of Installation: She said that the Zero clearance was easy to install (well, of course she did), but "Zero clearance" does make me think that there is some insulation in the unit itself. Their instructions are on their website, and I just finished reading them. I still wouldn't feel comfortable doing it myself, but at least now I have an idea of what needs to be done and a copy of the instructions which will help me detect if an installer is "blowing smoke" during an estimate.
-- Look of Double doors: This is just me, but I really prefer double doors vs the one long door that swings out. The other wood inserts I've seen have the single door, except for some larger inserts, but those were too big (and expensive) for my place.
-- 22" max log length: (a lot of the smaller competing inserts had 18" and even the larger ones had 21")
-- 3.5 Cubic foot firebox volume
-- 300 square inch viewing area
-- 3.4 GPH emissions

Sorry in advance for the negative, complaining paragraph that follows -- it's not your fault there aren't good dealers in my area. I checked out the dealers on the locator links you sent -- they are the same lame ones. Woodburners Two and a bunch of other dealers I've called in the past where they don't have anyone who has a wood log burning product in their house and don't ever have any on display. Plus, their prices suck.

 

[jtp10181]

Just to get terminology straight, its not an "insert" you are looking at, it is a wood fireplace. Could call it an EPA wood fireplace, or a Hybrid wood fireplace.... Anyway....

That's pretty damn cheap for a ZC wood unit, I skimmed the manual for it and it looks like an old heatform unit. Never seen a ZC quite like that. I wonder what kinda of steel they are using to build it for that price? I can't really say anything bad about them since I have no experience, but for that price it makes me wonder...

Is this a new house or a remodel project?

Hmmmm... I re-read your post above and I am confused. Are you looking to "insert" a wood fireplace into an older wood fireplace? Or install this thing new?

Ok... sorry for jumping all over. I know there is a dealer near me that sells the Magnum Countryside. I could see if they have the ZC wood unit and maybe go check it out. I'm a little curious to see this crazy looking thing, and see what you get for $1300.

FYI, If you priced out a NorthStar or a 7100 at another dealer and got a price near or over $3000, thats not bad (for just the unit). I think MSRP is even higher than that (just checked, its ~ $3500 - $4500). Like I said... I really wonder what you get for $1300.

 

[pmancoll]

My house was built in the 1950s and has a typical fireplace in the basement, surrounded by brick. While spending way-too-long splitting and stacking wood from some trees I had taken down, I decided to get something that would burn the wood efficiently and actually be good for the environment. The woodburning sites all over the web said to get an "EPA certified fireplace insert". I've been looking at way too many sites, but I guess because I'm imagining the "EPA wood fireplace" would have its door usually closed while operating and be sealed in most places, etc., I was thinking of it differently than a fireplace, or certainly the one I have now.

Anyway, so I want to continue to use the existing chimney, fireproof brick/mantle area, and put something in that looks good, burns efficiently and cleanly -- and doesn't require me to put in extra chimneys or flues (even though most of the sites say to put your fireplace in the center of your attic to improve drafting). Specifically, I'm hoping that when the metal firebox that is currently in the open-air fireplace is taken out, there will be enough room to put in the EPA approved insert without having to do any masonry work.

 

[pmancoll]

Ok, this page explains type of product I was looking for: (broken link removed to http://www.woodheat.org/technology/inserts.htm)

 

[begreen]

Ok, so you are looking for an insert to install in your existing masonry fireplace - correct?

If I understand your needs, I don't think the Magnum is what you're looking for. What are the fireplace's firebox dimensions? What is the size of the room it's in and what is the size of the house?

 

[Gooserider]

My house was built in the 1950s and has a typical fireplace in the basement, surrounded by brick. While spending way-too-long splitting and stacking wood from some trees I had taken down, I decided to get something that would burn the wood efficiently and actually be good for the environment. The woodburning sites all over the web said to get an "EPA certified fireplace insert". I've been looking at way too many sites, but I guess because I'm imagining the "EPA wood fireplace" would have its door usually closed while operating and be sealed in most places, etc., I was thinking of it differently than a fireplace, or certainly the one I have now.

Anyway, so I want to continue to use the existing chimney, fireproof brick/mantle area, and put something in that looks good, burns efficiently and cleanly -- and doesn't require me to put in extra chimneys or flues (even though most of the sites say to put your fireplace in the center of your attic to improve drafting). Specifically, I'm hoping that when the metal firebox that is currently in the open-air fireplace is taken out, there will be enough room to put in the EPA approved insert without having to do any masonry work.

This description is confusing to say the least - do you have any photos you could post? I would tend to agree with BG that it doesn't sound like this Magnum unit is quite what you are after, but it may be something is getting lost in the translation...

What are the insides of the firebox on the current unit made from?

What are it's dimensions?

What is the chimney like - is it metal, or is it a clay lined masonry unit?

What is the flue dimension?

Gooserider

 

[begreen]

I'm wondering if an Englander 13-NCI is what he's looking for? It will be easier to tell with some of these questions answered.

http://www.englanderstove.com/13-nci.html

 

[webbie]

Yes, this is a FIREPLACE, not a fireplace insert. In other words, it is NOT for installation in an existing fireplace (that is "insert"), but is to be built in by itself.

That is quite a deal for the price. Companies like Magnum and Kozy (with similar units) have been making built-ins for decades, and they are in the cold part of the country so they know heat. My guess is that the low price is because the bulk of their current sales come from Corn and Pellet stoves and they are probably trying to move some other product. Looking at the specs on that unit, it is easily equal to other units which are $2,000 plus....and price does not always equal quality, because think of it this way - a product that goes though a distributor and dealer can easily be marked up twice so that a $3,000 retail unit could sell for $1400 to the distributor! So I would not use price as the guide for value.

Magnum is a privately owned small firm in the model of most of the original companies in our industry. I'll bet the owner still knows how to weld a good bead! Mike, the owner, is a genuinely good guy (you know, in the midwest mold) - and, he is good in more ways than one. The company has a program which over the years has taken wayward youth and trained and employed them. They have gotten national and regional press for this.

So here is a company that is doing good by doing good. I know that may not have a affect on "value", but in this day and age it's nice knowing that your purchase supports a company that is about more than just the bottom line.

 

[Cath]

Here is a link to an older thread that mentions Magnum ZC. It looks like the person that started the thread was thinking about buying one and the last person that posted was enquiring if the original poster had actually bought one.

So, it's a bit of a long shot but it may be worth PM'ing the first and/or last poster to see if either one of them got one and, if so, what they have to say about it.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/4057/

Good luck,
~Cath

 

[pmancoll]

Cath - Before I posted, I checked on that thread and emailed the user. A nice guy who got back to me real quickly, but his answer was that he hadn't bought anything yet :=(

Let me see if I can give a better description (I will post a picture tonight)
Currently:
-- The fireplace is in the basement, on an exterior wall. The section of wall that surrounds the fireplace is brick. The fireplace sits about 2" off the floor.
-- The chimney has a brick chase, nothing besides the fireplace uses it (no other flues).
-- The existing flue for the fireplace is 7" by 7" metal (stainless steel, I think). When I post tonight, I'll have an inspection report from November in hand. I'm ok with replacing the flue, if necessary.
-- Firebox dimension: 26" deep, 36" wide at the front, tapering to 26" wide at the back.
-- House: It's a 1950's rambler, with thick masonry walls without Tyvec or modern insulation in them. Its foot print is 30' x 36' (1080 square feet), and there is a walkout basement, main level, and attic (not used).
-- The story about the stacked wood was to explain that I have some irrational reasons for wanting to use wood, whereas it might be more practical in my region to just put in a cheaper gas insert. (I don't mean to start a debate about gas vs. wood, I want to get something that uses wood)

After re-reading the posts, maybe I figured out my trouble with the terminology:
-- Is it that an "Insert" goes into the existing firebox and a fireplace would involve removing the fireplace?
-- When I first started looking, I was looking for an "Insert", because it would be easier to install. Last week, I got enamored with the Magnum ZC while talking to them, and just forgot about the constraint of installing into the existing firebox when it became apparent that it wouldn't fit in the existing firebox. I hope to get estimates soon from local heath professionals for installation of a fireplace vs. fireplace insert. Those might re-convince me why I would want an insert.

Let's say that I get an installation estimate for the Magnum ZC that I could go with: should I get the Magnum ZC? Will the fact that it is more powerful that my place needs be an issue? Or can I just run it less often and open some windows if I need to?

 

[Gooserider]

OK, first off (short) definitions....

Woodstove - Free-standing box designed for heating. May be placed in an existing fireplace if it fits, but not really designed or intended for it. Connects to existing chimney w/ stove pipe, or may use a new "Class A" prefab insulated metal chimney, or some combination. Does not need any pre-existing chimney or fireplace to install. Intended for heat output.

Insert - Essentially a woodstove firebox that has been modified to fit inside an existing fireplace, typically uses the existing chimney, frequently in combination with a stainless steel liner to improve draft, make cleaning easier, and fix cross sectional issues. MUST be installed into an existing fireplace, however usually will NOT work with ZC fireplaces (unless specifically tested and approved with a specific ZC unit) Intended for heat output.

EPA Fireplace, ZC HEATER fireplace - A complete replacement fireplace that is designed to be a high efficiency heater, offering heat outputs similar to an insert or free standing stove, and burning with similar low emmisions statistics. typically connects using generic "Class A" chimney. Designed to have little or no clearance between the outside of the stove and adjacent combustible materials. Does not require a pre-existing chimney or fireplace to install, although may be used to replace a pre-existing ZC unit, which usually will also require replacing the existing chimney as well.

Conventional fireplace - classically a fireplace built from masonry, connecting into a masonry chimney, hopefully lined with clay flue tiles. Must satisfy significant code requirements for clearances to combustibles, and construction techniques. There are also SOME "Heatform" type fireplaces that were built in the 40's and 50's that used a metal firebox, often surrounded by masonry, and feeding into a masonry chimney - They often had a double wall construction with vents on the face or sides of the fireplace surround, intended to do some convection heating. They were built to the same standards as masonry fireplaces in terms of clearances, and as long as they are in reasonable repair, can be used with inserts. Non-efficient heater, may actually be net energy waster.

Zero Clearance or ZC fireplace - (non EPA) - Primarily decorative, commonly seen as low cost "builder box" units. Non effective heater, made from metal, normally with manufacturer specific chimney, found in "budget built" homes, may NOT be used with most inserts. Designed to have minimal clearance requirements to combustible materials.

------------

So the key question seems to be to determine just what you have for a pre-existing fireplace.

The metal firebox and chimney suggest either a metal heatform unit, in which case you would probably be best off with an insert, and probably a liner in the chimney, or a ZC unit, in which case you would want to replace it and probably replace the chimney with a "Class A" prefab chimney (which you might be able to run down the existing chase)

The metal firebox and chimney suggest a ZC box, but the brick chase, and the brick surround sort of suggest that it could be a heatform. Hopefully your condition report would say what you have, or you could get the info from the sweep that did the inspection.

Is the brick chase for the chimney on the outside of the house? If so, you would probably need an insulated liner, although that could be a challenge to fit inside a 7" square flue...

As to costs -

If the existing unit is a ZC box, you pretty much are going to have to replace it - in which case it sounds like the Magnum unit is a good deal

If it's a heatform, you have more choices, either go with an insert or rip everything out and go with the Magnum. There are three main parts to the job - the unit, the chimney, and the installation. I saw an earlier post suggesting the Englander insert, which is probably a bit less, and can be purchased from your local big box store (HD, Lowes, etc...) I don't know Englanders price list but I believe their insert (if it will fit) is around $8-900. A full 6" liner and insulation kit will probably run about the same, depending on your chimney height, the quality of the liner you pick, where you get it, etc. Installation I have no real idea on, but it would probably be your lowest cost option There are lots of other inserts to choose from besides Englander, but they tend to be much more expensive. Englander is targetted more at the budget market, but makes a high quality unit. Some folks don't care for the way they look, but in terms of "BTU's per Buck" they are real bargains.

If you go with the Magnum, you will need to rip out the existing firebox, probably the existing flue, and put in the unit itself, along with a much more expensive chimney system - I think you'd end up spending more money.

Gooserider

 

[pmancoll]

Wow, I can't believe how far off I was on describing my fireplace, I just re-checked it and pulled up my latest chimney inspection sheet.

It's a "Masonry" fireplace (the other choices on the sheet were "Prefab" and "Modular". I had thought there was a metal firebox because the back of the fireplace sounds hollow when you tap it. However, the sides are solid masonry.

The flue size is 13" x 13". I thought I had seen 7" x 7" somewhere, but that was wrong, too.

Can't show any pictures because now I can't get my camera to work (can't do anything right this week).

I've got an appointment for this Friday for an installer to inspect the setup and make some estimates on installing an insert vs. the Magnum ZC. I'm pretty sure I'll go with an insert when I get an idea of how much it would cost to install the Magnum ZC.

 

[BrotherBart]

I don't know which direction "near DC" you are but you should think about talking to Chase Rice at J.E. Rice Hardware in Manassas. They have been selling stoves and inserts around here for sixty years and are really fine folks.

 

[Gooserider]

Wow, I can't believe how far off I was on describing my fireplace, I just re-checked it and pulled up my latest chimney inspection sheet.

It's a "Masonry" fireplace (the other choices on the sheet were "Prefab" and "Modular". I had thought there was a metal firebox because the back of the fireplace sounds hollow when you tap it. However, the sides are solid masonry.

The flue size is 13" x 13". I thought I had seen 7" x 7" somewhere, but that was wrong, too.

Can't show any pictures because now I can't get my camera to work (can't do anything right this week).

I've got an appointment for this Friday for an installer to inspect the setup and make some estimates on installing an insert vs. the Magnum ZC. I'm pretty sure I'll go with an insert when I get an idea of how much it would cost to install the Magnum ZC.

Good news, as I think that will give you a less expensive setup - It would sound to me like what you need is an insert with a full length re-line, using insulated liner, and a block-off plate. Depending on the size of the hearth and what the floor in front of it is made of, you might need to do a hearth extension - however if you have a concrete basement floor that should be pretty easy.

Let us know what the installer tells you, as that will give us a real good idea of your setup, and possibly a hint as to the caliber of the installer. (Insulation on the liner and the use of blockoff plates are two big areas where some installers try to take shortcuts)

Gooserider

 

[pmancoll]

Ok, here's the resolution I found on this:

-- The Magnum ZC and Magnum Masonry line are really not meant for existing fireplaces. The installer who came over on Friday was not too interested in installing one of these, and so AES put me in touch with a dealer of theirs, Russell Zile, about a 1.5 hours away who sells corn stoves. He was very helpful: discussing the firebox measurements with me over the phone, and just called me today with the news that he had talked to the engineers over at AES and that the products are really not meant for existing fireplaces. That's all I needed to hear. I was just following up on a great price quote on something that looked nice - I don't need to blow the bank and take extra risks on an install that isn't a good idea.

-- The installer I had come over on Friday was mostly interested in installing products that his store carries. I should have thought of that before scheduling an appointment. Ahead of time, I had agreed to pay $125 for a site visit, but if I were to do it all over again, I'd have tried to schedule something with someone who does not have a shop, so that he would be more open-minded about products to put in. He seemed like he knew what he was doing, but it felt like his prices were very high and he was doing a sales job on me the whole time. He was talking about the flue pipe being $200 for 48" sections and $400 per elbow. This is well above prices I had seen online. Granted, a decent profit margin is fine, but if I'm going to overpay by a lot for parts, I'd rather the money be going to someone who needs it or an installer I actually like working with.

What caliber of installer was he? Well. below is the rough estimate he gave to install an insert he carries (they started around $2K for the small models, before discounts) :
-- stove insert not included
-- $2100 for pipe and installation -- this was for 6" flexible pipe through the 20' or 25' of the chimney, plus ceramic wool insulation around the pipe, plus fiberglass to fill out the space in the chimney. He also proposed an alternative of around $1,500 for a 5.5" pipe with less insulation, but I wasn't interested in that.

I'll stick to looking at inserts from now on. I'll start a new thread if I have any more questions or post a picture after I get something installed. Thanks again for the advice!