MCZ Pellet Stove - Error A10 - Burner Failure (not)

[cancunia]

Hi folks,

I hoped that someone would have some ideas of what's wrong with my stove, perhaps it's happened to someone else.

- btw I have read the generic sticky item on this, but if you read on you'll see it's a bit more of a mystery.

My MCZ Musa pellet stove will not run for more than 20 mins, and claims a burner (igniter) failure as the cause. As the stove does actually light, I doubt it's the cartridge igniter but is more likely to be some kind of sensor issue. I thought it might be because it's not sensing the exhaust temp, but the smoke temp info display shows that it's getting hot and gets above the minimum threshold for the stove to go into run/demand mode.

So far as I can tell, there's no on/off sensor for the exhaust temp, just a threshold on the smoke temp to determine if the stove has reached operating temp.

Any thoughts / suggestions welcome.

Thanks

 

[Mt Bob]

Heard they were importing those to this side of the pond,but never seen one.We need more uk members!BTY looks to me that a10 code shows plug problem,electrical supply problem?Bob

 

[cancunia]

Hi Bob,

Yeah, it's something in either the firmware or electrics. The A10 code comes up after the stove has been lit for a while so I doubt a failure of the igniter, by the looks of things it checks after a period of time to see if the stove is up to temp and that's where it fails. There are not many forums yet in the UK for pellet stoves so it's good to find another english speaking source of knowledge.

 

[Mt Bob]

There are a lot of smart people on this site,just that your product is not common over here.Looking up your manual on the net shows a10 as-the plug is defective?What is that,your electrical plug?Other than that,problem could be many things,need more info to guess.By the way how do you like the unit?

 

[cancunia]

I'm fairly sure it means the ingniter cartridge (spark plug), translated from Italian. Apart from this issue which has happened at just about the most awkward time of year, the stove has been fine. I came across this forum while searching for posts on the MCZ stoves, so am hoping there's an expert on here somewhere

 

[chken]

There's an italian MCZ forum that you might try:

http://stufapellet.forumcommunity.net/?f=1918031

I look at it from time to time for Piazzetta info, another italian make.

 

[cancunia]

Thanks, I took a quick look in there, nothing obvious though.

 

[EastMtn]

I just went through your manual and two things point to an A10 error. The first cause is due to the remote but as the manual states the stove should still run. The second cause has to do with the igniter. I understand that the stove lights and runs for 20min. The manual also states that the stove will not reset itself until the problem is fixed. Have you tried disconnecting and reconnecting the igniter? Also, have you tried testing it with an electric tester (queen's english), multimeter (for us yanks)?
My quid is on the igniter being the problem.

I did find the service manual for your stove in the UK. I ran into a few protected areas but still managed to get a copy. If you don't have this manual already then send me a private conversation with your email and I will send you a copy. It is a more indepth look at troubleshooting your stove that the owners manual doesn't cover.

This is from your service manual page 82 UK version:

5.3.10. A10 (Only for ACTIVE SYSTEM devices)
This alarm signals that
THE SPARKPLUG DOES NOT WORK. The motherboard detects the component's failure to absorb power and signals the fault.


Proceed to the replacement of the sparkplug after a short control test is carried out with an electric tester.



Also:
If electronic and mechanical components are all working perfectly and the combustion chamber is perfectly sealed,
the fault must be sought in the assembly formed by brazier, igniter duct and air intake duct.

The most likely causes are determined by excessive distance between igniter duct and brazier hole. In this case, it may be useful to:
 Eliminate spacers from igniter duct on models where this is possible (ANTARES-VEGA-ASTRA-AURORA-MODULO). Eliminate as many spacers needed until the tip of the duct nearly touches the brazier.
 Widen the hole of the brazier to Ø12 mm.
 Check that the holes of the igniter duct are free and allow easy introduction of air to be heated and start-up.
 On NEW ACTIVE SYSTEM appliances (Ego-Star-Suite-Musa-Club) make sure that
ignition duct is present with rear intake holes outside the brazier pocket (code
41200903900).

On POLAR and NOVA PELLET BOX models, check for presence of the combustion air reduction flange code 43640499G. This is mandatory on air models but not on HYDRO models and may solve start-up problems.

Below are steps taken from the manual:
The stove runs for a
few minutes and then
goes out.
Symptom
1. Lighting cycle not completed.
2. Temporary failure of electricity supply.
3. Smoke duct obstructed.
4. Temperature sensors defective or broken.
5. Sparkplug failure.

Remedy
1. Re-run lighting cycle.
2. See previous instruction.
3. Clean smoke duct.
4. Check and replace sensors as
necessary.
5. Check the plug and replace if
necessary.

I'm running out of room here. Let us know how everything works out.
The best of British to you.

EM

 

[EastMtn]

Thanks, I took a quick look in there, nothing obvious though.

 

[EastMtn]

.

I agree that you may not want to get invasive, especially since the stove is so new and still under warranty. When you get it fixed let us know how the problem was resolved. MCZ, and Piazzetta's are slowly carving a niche for themselves in the U.S. as well.

 

[cancunia]

Some progress of sorts. I came across the attached which describes the problem I'm having and that MCZ removed this error check from their firmware in Dec 2012. It's in French but readily translated via Google if needed.

I wait to see if this is applicable to my particular model, and if so why I got one with old firmware.

 

[ste]

Hi Cancunia.
I have the exact same problem with my stove.
Have you had any success resolving the issue?

 

[cancunia]

Hi Cancunia.
I have the exact same problem with my stove.
Have you had any success resolving the issue?

Yes, it's a known firmware problem on MCZ stoves with 'Active' firmware which MCZ identified at the end of 2012 but for some reason this has not become common knowledge. A firmware upgrade will resolve the issue, also a new igniter will fix it in the short term. Contact your supplier to get a firmware update, which should be done inder warranty if your stove was installed after Dec 2013, since that's when they found the problem but for some reason failed to update the motherboards they put into new stoves.

From the latest service manual - my earlier post has more detail but needs to be dropped into Google Translate if you don't read French.

ATTENTION
Alarm A10 has been eliminated from all ACTIVE SYSTEM products fitted with a motherboard version
520206 (reported on the motherboard label) and with firmware version 0419 or more recent. The reasons
for this change are expressed in detail in the news dated 28/12/12 reported on www.mcz.it. For the same reasons,
the A10 alarm has been eliminated from the ACTIVE+ electronics.

 

[3107]

Yes, it's a known firmware problem on MCZ stoves with 'Active' firmware which MCZ identified at the end of 2012 but for some reason this has not become common knowledge. A firmware upgrade will resolve the issue, also a new igniter will fix it in the short term. Contact your supplier to get a firmware update, which should be done inder warranty if your stove was installed after Dec 2013, since that's when they found the problem but for some reason failed to update the motherboards they put into new stoves.

From the latest service manual - my earlier post has more detail but needs to be dropped into Google Translate if you don't read French.

ATTENTION
Alarm A10 has been eliminated from all ACTIVE SYSTEM products fitted with a motherboard version
520206 (reported on the motherboard label) and with firmware version 0419 or more recent. The reasons
for this change are expressed in detail in the news dated 28/12/12 reported on www.mcz.it. For the same reasons,
the A10 alarm has been eliminated from the ACTIVE+ electronics.

 

[3107]

Hi everybody,
Thanks for infos Cancunia.

Somebody has the new firmware for the MCZ MUSA ??? and knows which program can upload it ????

Thanks for reply

 

[cancunia]

Hello 3107, so far as I know the firmware can only be loaded by an authorized MCZ service engineer. If you look on the MCZ website, you should see the main MCZ dealer in Belgium. They will be able to advise on the closest engineer to you. Another way to get around this alarm, may be to fit a new igniter. Chances are that yours is about to fail if the A10 alarm is showing. In the UK, there are higher domestic voltages (about 250 in my case) than in most of Europe, this causes the igniters to fail quicker.

 

[3107]

thanks Cancunia, but an engineer came to change the igniter and did maintenance but error A10 still there blocking the stove.
( it is my son's stove )
I looked the internet to find out a solution and so I've find your info ( coming from MCZ via Fero Belgium in french)
I phoned my son to ask him to have a look on the electronic board.
The Number indicates that the system must be upgraded.
The engineer did not know anything about that note !
I have to say that i am an engineer too ( retail) and have a big experience with electronic systems so i can do the job by myself if they do not want to do the upgrade free of charge ( it must be free of charge because it is an hidden defect as defined by the belgian law !! But................ .)
I'll phone the Fero enterprise monday to negociate a free of charge intervention . If they do not want , i'll try to negociate the sending of the firmware and the way to do the upgrade by myself.
You are right about the 250v. In most places in Belgium we have 240v.
A solution for you should be to insert a small resistor in serial with the igniter.( but the resistor has to support a rather great power)

Thanks for your help and excuse my poor English....

 

[3107]

thanks Cancunia, but an engineer came to change the igniter and did maintenance but error A10 still there blocking the stove.
( it is my son's stove )
I looked the internet to find out a solution and so I've find your info ( coming from MCZ via Fero Belgium in french)
I phoned my son to ask him to have a look on the electronic board.
The Number indicates that the system must be upgraded.
The engineer did not know anything about that note !
I have to say that i am an engineer too ( retail) and have a big experience with electronic systems so i can do the job by myself if they do not want to do the upgrade free of charge ( it must be free of charge because it is an hidden defect as defined by the belgian law !! But................ .)
I'll phone the Fero enterprise monday to negociate a free of charge intervention . If they do not want , i'll try to negociate the sending of the firmware and the way to do the upgrade by myself.
You are right about the 250v. In most places in Belgium we have 240v.
A solution for you should be to insert a small resistor in serial with the igniter.( but the resistor has to support a rather great power)

Thanks for your help and excuse my poor English....

 

[3107]

Hi everybody,
The mother board with a number below S520205 cannot be upgraded ! It has to be changed ! The error A10 appears at the beginning and blocks the stove.
The warming resistor is good ( measure with an ohmeter).
Somebody has the schematic of the board ? I'm thinking to modify the board to get rid of that error.
Thanks

 

[cancunia]

Does the A10 error come as soon as you try to start the stove? Mine came after about 15 minutes when the firmware does a 2nd check. I think that the firmware looks for a resistance on the igniter, probably within a certain range but if your igniter is good, then maybe the mother board is actually faulty. You can register on the MCZ site and get access to the 'special' area of the website very easily and from there, you can find the correct part number for a mother board. Ebay in Germany had some of these boards and so did some other sites in Germany. Just need to Google the part number.

 

[3107]

Hi everybody and thanks Cancunia

I've tried to get the schema of the main board ( old one) of the MCZ MUSA......no way
So, i was thinking to follow the tracks concerning the igniter by the help of an ohmeter.
And ( i do not know why ) i've placed my ohmeter on resistor on the way of the track.
That resistor ( very common type) sould be 220K as indicated by the color code but was cut ( more than 20M !!)
Strange because most of défectives résistors are burned out or cracked
I decided to exchange the broken resistor by a new one and put back the board in place.
I've switched on the stove and saw the A10 error coming on the screen and gone after a few seconds ( was still in the memory board ? I do not know).
Big surprise the stove starts normally and it is still working from more than 50 hours even by stopping it and restart to be sure that everything works good !!
I've taken a picture of the board for an other reason so that resistor hidden by a small black block which can be a small relay .

I've put a red Arrow to indicate the resistor that i've changed ( so it is that we cannot see just below the black block and above an other resistor ( same value).
It is possible that a bad serie of resistor has been implemented on board so if other problems check the values of that kind of resistor.

If you need more info , you are welcome
Luc

 

[3107]

Does the A10 error come as soon as you try to start the stove? Mine came after about 15 minutes when the firmware does a 2nd check. I think that the firmware looks for a resistance on the igniter, probably within a certain range but if your igniter is good, then maybe the mother board is actually faulty. You can register on the MCZ site and get access to the 'special' area of the website very easily and from there, you can find the correct part number for a mother board. Ebay in Germany had some of these boards and so did some other sites in Germany. Just need to Google the part number.

 

[3107]

Hi Cancunia.
At the beginnig the fault came after a few minutes but later on : directly after off and on .
See my post from today.

 

[cancunia]

That's a nice piece of dectective work, well done! Boards do fail, I guess that yours is a few years old by now so it's good to know that they last a while.