Modular woodshed brainstorming

[Poindexter]

Got a few issues at Casa Pondexter with the woodpile. I am done with pallets. And I want a modular design so I don't get hammered by the property tax fairy, and can make both my shed and my woodpile negotiable with the house if we decide to sell.

I am running 16 pallets in the back yard now for seasoning. Got some dead grass under them, want to stay close to the same footprint.

Some pictures:



Thus the problem with pallets. I am in my third season burning at this address, and I have only collected three pallets like the one on the right with no side cutouts.

Problem two is mold because of the stack shifting, note black ends above and shifting below:



Done with stack shifting, before I stack another single stick.

Besides shifting, moldy ends and pallet cracking which are getting solved this fall, I also want/need in the near future for my drying wood to

1>not look like the wreck of the Hesperus
2> be able to be stored right where it is, eliminating the step of moving from seasoning racks to wood storage shed. I got enough bicycles and other crap that I can easily fill my existing wood storage shed to make room in the garage for shop tools, and I'll need less Motrin every year.

I figure as I empty each module during the burning season I can refill it with green splits and leave them right there until next year. So we are talking combination passive solar drying shed and storage shed in the same box here.

So I am pretty set on a modular shed system, nominal 96"x42" footprint that will hold one cord of wood, two parallel stacks 6' tall, just like on the pallets. I want to keep the empty weight of each module under 300#, under 200# would be better so two adults could reasonably load each module onto a flatbed trailer and move to another location.

Rather than excavate and try to level all those cinder blocks I am going to lay used RR ties across the tops of the cinderblocks. That will give me a flat span, but only eight feet at a time.

From there I envision 42x96" floor framing of PT 2x4 with four total 8 footers in it. Then a layer of 6mil plastic as a vapor barrier, and then not PT plywood for the floor. 23/32 cdx is $23.82 a sheet at Home Depot for me right now, looks like economical choice for good strength.

First anticipated discussion question: Is it better to have a perforated floor to let air in for faster drying, or better to have a vapor tight floor that blocks all incoming water from below?

I am pretty sure at my house blocking all water vapor from below is the better choice. On pallets anything I have stacked and top covered by May first is dry enough to burn July fourth, nine weeks later. My real problem -at this address- is keeping my wood dry from July fourth to constant below freezing temps. Usually starts raining July fifth, freeze up generally mid October.

My second challenge is keeping dry wood dry during the spring shoulder season when I got the daily freeze/thaw cycle going on and a bunch of water vapor in the air looking for anything dry to condense on.

I got the plastic, I am looking at $256 for 16 RR ties, $240 for 40 of 2x4x8PT and $200 for 8 sheets of cdx. So $696 to replace 16 free pallets with a floor that will last about forever if I can keep water off the cdx.

I want it that bad.

I have read all the wood shed and wood kiln threads here going back five years or so, gonna post part one now to keep from posting a novel in post one.

 

[Poindexter]

Ok, so at this point in the project I got cinderblocks on the ground, RR ties on the cinderblocks, PT 2x4 floor framing on the RR ties, a layer of 6mil plastic as a vapor barrier, then regular (not pressure treated) 23/32 cdx on top of that. 96"x42" each, eight modules, I have a permanent floor 64 feet long, 42" wide, plenty stout to season eight cords of wood on.

Next challenge is shifting. I am stuck with N-S lot lines, an excellent southern exposure, and a patch of dead grass (64 feet long and 42" wide). I have found that if I stack all my birch on the sunny southern side, it's dry in one year. Put all my spruce on the shady side second layer, it's dry in one year. Golden, except for when the stacks topple, they always topple to the south.

So on the south edge of each floor module I am going to put wall framing, not pressure treated, just regular white pine or DF 2x4 on 16" centers. $2.43 each, 9 studs per wall, 22 bucks each module x 8 modules, there goes another $176, I have $872 into this so far.

But I did shave $4608 off my oil bill last year alone, just winter of 14-15. I dropped from 2000 gallons annually before a wood stove to 800 gallons last year. $3.84 per gallon, highway robbery I tell ya.

Next up, I plan to surface the inside surface of each wall module with 14ga plastic coated wire fencing. 4" wide roll, applied from top down, 50 feet for $70. Unfortunately I'll need two rolls, and a bunch of staples.. Every module will have fencing within 2' of the floor, many of them will be fully protected, but all will block minimal amounts of sunlight.

At this point wall height is negotiable. I need six feet minimum, studs are cheapest at 8 feet length, so somewhere be tween six and eight feet three inches tall. I have settled on 82.25" for reasons that won't be clear for a while yet.

At the top edge of each wall, on the outside surface, some kind of collar beam. Maybe another 2x4 (20 bucks), maybe the 6" off cuts from making the cdx 42" wide floor (free), maybe standard 8' 2x6s (~$30).

Then from the collar beam to the opposite edge of the floor either eye bolts with cable and turn buckles, maybe big triangles of plywood attached to the floor and south wall, very open to ideas here.

With the wall up, the wood held back and the wall braced back to the opposite edge of the floor, I got two problems solved for right at $900. No more cracked pallets, freaking EVER, and no more toppling wood pile, freaking EVER.

 

[Poindexter]

I am about to be interrupted...

But with that south wall up I am going to staple down the edge of a piece of green house plastic so it covers the top of the header and the top of the collar beam, and then down the outside of the wall, opposite the wire fencing holding the wood back. When I get to the bottom Ill staple down a cedar shim at every stud (got plenty of those), so the bottom edge of the plastic flares out from the wall at the bottom.

Any condensate on the plastic should drip down the inside surface of the plastic, and land on the ground outside the shed -- but there will only be a gap about a 1/4 wide along the bottom edge of the south wall for water vapor to get back in.

From here my plans are very elastic, I'll try to explain about the 82.25" south wall height next.

 

[Woody harrelson]

need pictures!

 

[hamslam42]

need pictures!

Yes, pictures please! Also, What length are most of your splits cut to? How much room do you try to leave between your two rows? I think you said 42" depth...so just wondering what makes up that 42". Can't wait to hear about the 82.25" wall height...that's very specific...there's a good story there I think!

 

[tsquini]

64' L x 3.5' W x 7' H.
Does it get windy in Alaska? This wall will catch a lot of air. I would like to see it. Post picts.

 

[ElmBurner]

Based on this paper, you can pile it all under a tarp and it will dry in a few months. Not sure you need to go to so much trouble with the walls and so on, unless you are looking for a project.

http://www.cchrc.org/sites/default/files/docs/WoodStorageBestPractices.pdf

You could try it out anyway and monitor with a moisture meter to see if these results are something you can duplicate.

 

[HItz]

The results in that paper seem counter to the common knowledge posted around here, but their methods for measuring seem sound, not sure how to reconcile that.

 

[ElmBurner]

The results in that paper seem counter to the common knowledge posted around here, but their methods for measuring seem sound, not sure how to reconcile that.

The executive summary states that tarp covered wood dries slower than the simulated wood shed method (basically, a normal stack covered with a sheet of plywood), but they all dried in three months when it was c/s/s and not left as whole logs.

The wood was also cut to 12-16" lengths which, along with the species selection, may explain the quick cure rates compared to the hardwoods most of us are probably familiar with.

The tables towards the bottom of the report seem to suggest that optimal storage methods are to leave the spruce uncovered and the birch under a tarp and that spring cut wood will all season in 3 months and will be good enough to burn (<20% MC) over the following winter.

 

[tsquini]

For Birch, Spruce and Aspen they dry quick. In any condition with good air flow and slightly better when covered. I would like to see the result for Oak, Locust, and Osage Orange.

 

[Woody Stover]

Based on this paper

Nice find, very interesting. Spring vs. fall harvest is interesting. I guess the spring results would have to be before the sap started flowing again. Like tsquini, I wonder how the graphs would look for the Oak I have here....

 

[Poindexter]

Based on this paper, you can pile it all under a tarp and it will dry in a few months. Not sure you need to go to so much trouble with the walls and so on, unless you are looking for a project.

http://www.cchrc.org/sites/default/files/docs/WoodStorageBestPractices.pdf

You could try it out anyway and monitor with a moisture meter to see if these results are something you can duplicate.

I have had this study printed out and mounted in a three ring binder for many years. I have read it several times and I don't understand how the tarp covered thing worked for them. They did have all there test stacks out in the middle of a five acre field. All I can come up with is they had enough wind to bernoulli effect water vapor out from under that tarp. At my house in a subdivision with trees, about a mile from the five acre testing field that spruce would have rotted to useless in two summer months.

Likewise, I don't get quite that good of freeze drying over the winter. I start splitting and stacking around Thanksgiving so one end of my wood pile is as freeze dried as possible before it really gets going on drying in the summer heat. By mid June the stuff I split and stacked on Saint Patrick's Day is just as dry as the stuff I split and stacked on Black Friday.

Notice also there solar kiln is standing on bare ground, that thing has got to be sucking a BUNCH of groundwater out of the ground into the kiln, but they managed to dry aspen in there anyway.

The most important take home finding in that study that I do agree with and have duplicated is trees felled on May 1 that are split and stacked by May 15 (I mean local birch and spruce, oak and elm and so on don't grow up here) - local woods split green and stacked on May 15 are at or under 20% MC wet basis on July fourth. From there, the challenge is to keep the splits dry until the stove is ready for them.

NB: On summer solstice, June 21ish, I have 20 hours of daylight.

 

[Poindexter]

By starting my seasoning on table 2a by splitting over the winter, by spring when I switch to table 1c my splits are all already down around 40%MC, not yet to Fiber Saturation Point. Getting from 40% to FSP takes maybe a week of above freezing weather, and then all my splits are equal going into Memorial Day Weekend.

 

[Poindexter]

So the roof thing. Here is my concept. As much as practicable within having to have framing and so on, I want clear sheeting on all surfaces to let sunlight in and trap heat inside.

Likewise - and I think this is a key point - I want every bit of water vapor to have an unimpeded path to condense on that clear sheeting and drip somewhere outside the shed. Like this:

I haven't settled on a roofing product yet, I'll come back to that.

I originally drew a 4:12 roof with a 48" run and a 16" rise. A bunch of clear products can take my 50#/ sqft snow load when installed at 4:12.

4:12 on a 48" run requires a 50 5/8" rafter. If I start with a 12' sheet of clear corrugated roofing, hack 11" off the end for the north side stub roof, I got 133" left from the original 12 foot sheet. When I plug 133 into a golden ratio calculator as (a+b) it'll come back with 50.8 and 82.2 as the proportionately pleasing pieces to cut from the 133" piece.

Bob's your uncle. Couple snags. BRB.

 

[Poindexter]

So really I should be on google instead of goofing off at hearth.com. but roofing.

All the corrugated roofing products I have looked at so far require purlins and uninterrupted batten strips on every purlin, full width to make my snow load.
If I do that, condesate on the tip third of the ceiling will ooze down to the first purlin, and then drip on my wood. Vapor that condenses on the middle third will floow down to the next purlin, and then drip onto my wood.

I found one product, multi-layer polycarbonate that can take my snow load, because I can drop the purlins down 1/8" below the tops of the rafters and still make snow load. During summer, water vapor that condenses at the top edge can flow all the way to the opposite lower edge of the roof to drip on the grass on the sunny side of the lawn outside the shed. In winter, the product can stand 1?8" deflection to rest on the purlins under 50# / sqft of snow load. It's $140 for a single 4x8 sheet up here.

That would require $1100 just for the sheets, never mind the special mounting hardware, and I would have to go to a 45" run on 4:12 pitch to get a 48" rafter length. This would lower the south wall height to 77.xx inches for pleasing proportion, but tall enough to hold my 6' vertical stacks....

I need to go google up if fiberglass corrugated clear can stand 1/8" deflection to the purlins, and I need to see about custom ordering the polycarbonate honeycomb stuff.

If you want this stuff, shop online before you buy at home depot...: http://www.homedepot.com/p/LEXAN-Th...gclid=COfSkeG20sgCFQdafgodmk0L9A&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[Poindexter]

Yes, pictures please! Also, What length are most of your splits cut to? How much room do you try to leave between your two rows? I think you said 42" depth...so just wondering what makes up that 42". Can't wait to hear about the 82.25" wall height...that's very specific...there's a good story there I think!

Standard shipping pallets are 48" by 42". I leave a ten inch air gap in the between the two rows and use the 48" length on mine.

 

[Poindexter]

Also note every single one of these clear corrugated products I have looked at requires predrilled holes 3/16" larger than screw size to allow for thermal expansion and contraction in my "extreme" climate. -50dF and +90dF are not unusual annual extreme temps.

 

[hamslam42]

4:12 on a 48" run requires a 50 5/8" rafter. If I start with a 12' sheet of clear corrugated roofing, hack 11" off the end for the north side stub roof, I got 133" left from the original 12 foot sheet. When I plug 133 into a golden ratio calculator as (a+b) it'll come back with 50.8 and 82.2 as the proportionately pleasing pieces to cut from the 133" piece.

Sounds like you have a really good handle on things. Wish I could offer you some advice or insight but in this case I'm the one who should be learning from you! All of these measurements you mention here bring back fond memories from this past summer when I was building my shed. Doing all this planning and calculations for the roof rafters that I had to cut. In mine, I had 5:12 for front roof and 8:12 for the back, it was a saltbox style roof so rear wall height was lower than front header height. But I had it all figured out, what the wall heights should be, the rise/run for each rafter, and the angle cuts I needed to make. Then when it got time to actually do that, I took some measurements. Based on a number of factors (can't get all wood perfectly straight, poor carpentry skills, etc), over the length of my 28 foot roofline, the horizontal run between the ridge beam and front or back wall plate differed by as much as 1.25". So unfortunately one front and one back rafter template didn't work for all rafters. The other lesson I learned...don't completely rely on the lumber dimensions. Using 2x4 for the wall framing, I had a bottom plate, 78" stud, and then double top plate. Should end up being 1.5" + 78 + 3" above deck, right? Hah! It ended up actually being 3/8" higher than that...which also affected the back rise. Luckily I didn't cut all those roof rafters ahead of time.

 

[Poindexter]

Sounds like you have a really good handle on things. ... the horizontal run between the ridge beam and front or back wall plate differed by as much as 1.25". So unfortunately one front and one back rafter template didn't work for all rafters.

Yup, I am especially concerned about framing each module tight to its neighbors. Laying 8 RR ties end to end and expecting the entire surface to be flat for its entire length seem unwise. Still muddling, I can built the floors tight to each other but I should plan to leave some amount of gap between adjacent walls I think.

 

[Poindexter]

There was an early comment about wind I have been stewing on. It is going to be a pain to space each module from its neighbors to frame everything up too.

I am working on the wife to let me build a 12x16ish greenhouse like structure to use as a wood kiln while we live here and sell with the house as a greenhouse when we go.

 

[Mike Fromme]

There was an early comment about wind I have been stewing on. It is going to be a pain to space each module from its neighbors to frame everything up too.

I am working on the wife to let me build a 12x16ish greenhouse like structure to use as a wood kiln while we live here and sell with the house as a greenhouse when we go.

You picked a really appropriate user name.