Moving heat upstairs..

[evanm1089]

So, I'm asking the same question as many others have before me.. But like the others, each situation is a little unique. I'm trying to move the wonderful heat my Fisher Grandpa puts off for me, upstairs.

My basement is unfinished and is built with 12" block all the way around. A 6" block dividing wall with 3 door openings seperates the two sides. The Fisher is in the far corner of the house, opposite end of the stair well. The stove is under the bedroom side of the house. The stairs also are facing the opposite direction of the stove as well. The stairs facing the opposite direction I think is what is hurting me the most.

The Fisher gets the entire basement area to about 72* even on the coldest nights, (lately 10* or colder). Which I think is pretty good for an unfinished basement, with exposed block walls and 6" of concrete. However the upstairs is usually only around 62, on the same cold nights. Right now I'm leaving the basement stair door open, obviously.. And have my furnace fan on circulate to hopefully draw the heat up the stairs.

My question is, what other/better methods could I use to get more of the heat upstairs?

I've thought of a few floor registers in the living room near the stair well will let up more heat. I know finishing the basement will help a tremendous amount, which will happen, just not ready for that at this time.

I've also thought about cutting another return in my return duct in the basement at the unit to draw some of the warm air from the stove into and disperse it thru out the house. I know this is frowned upon by many but these are just ideas for now. Also my return duct/furnace is about 10' from the stove now.

I've attached a diagram to help explain the basement layout.

Thanks for your ideas and input. It is greatly appreciated all.

 

[begreen]

Between the old stove and the uninsulated basement walls it wouldn't surprise me if fully 50-60% of the wood heat is being wasted. That means at least one cord lost for every 2 burned. The basement walls alone are sucking about 33% of the heat outdoors. In this situation I would probably be looking into an add-on wood or coal furnace to tie into the current ductwork.

 

[evanm1089]

Between the old stove and the uninsulated basement walls it wouldn't surprise me if fully 50-60% of the wood heat is being wasted. That means at least one cord lost for every 2 burned. The basement walls alone are sucking about 33% of the heat outdoors. In this situation I would probably be looking into an add-on wood or coal furnace to tie into the current ductwork.

I'm not opposed to finishing the walls, sooner than later. I have the materials. Just curious as to other means of getting heat upstairs.
Thank you

 

[begreen]

Insulating the walls will help a lot. If the basement is currently only 72F then there is not a lot of extra heat to make upstairs comfortable. After insulating there needs to be a convective loop established. This may take adding vents so that you can blow the cooler upstairs air down the stairs to be replaced with hot air from the stove. Of course the best place for the stove is upstairs, it is an area heater that should be located where the heat is needed.

 

[coaly]

Yep, I'd insulate the basement walls to raise the temp, and cut 2 holes through floor above stove. After it rises upstairs it will cool and drop down the steps. 1 or 2 small fans in the vents blowing up will help.
If the steps and stove were at the same end of house it would rise up the steps and you would need fans in floor register vents blowing back down at the opposite end, but your configuration is better to gravity convect with or without fans. The only down side is the bedroom will be the warmest. That's the natural circulation loop that can't be helped with the stove under bedroom.
My neighbor's doing the same with a Papa Bear with about 1500 sf on each level. His is perfect with the bedrooms at the opposite end of house than stove.

 

[evanm1089]

Thanks guys. Appreciate the input. I will start on closing my walls in. Than maybe a vent near the stove just outside the bedrooms in the hall way. Just so I don't cook the guest bedroom. How large should it be? Sf? And could I do 2 smaller holes, so I don't take up the whole hallway.

 

[coaly]

Floor vents for mobile homes I believe come in 9 and 12 inch long by about 3 or 4 inches wide. Depending on decor, you may want to find antique cast iron vents with scroll work. They make booster fans for ductwork, or the small square fans for doorways. Then size doesn't make much difference. The mobile home type (Home Depot) have a shut off so if you have A/C in the summer they can be closed to prevent cold air from dropping. The sheet metal type do crush down with heavy traffic, so they should be along the wall where they don't get stepped on constantly.

 

[evanm1089]

What about dedicated ducts from the stove in the basement to two vents in the upstairs floor near the stairwell? I have access to many building goods and could put together some ducts to move the heat just thru the dedicated ducts with small fans in each, operated by a switch that I could turn on or off. Any thoughts?

 

[begreen]

I think if you check with the local mechanical inspector you will find that direct ducting of the stove is against code.

 

[coaly]

You don't want the heat piped to the upper floor next to where it comes down when it's cool. It wouldn't circulate through the rest of the house. You want the lighter more buoyant warm air to rise upstairs, and as it cools it gets heavier and drops. That makes it rise on the stove side and cooler air falling down the steps allows it to move through the house keeping it more even through the house. Admitting hot air near the cold air return (steps) allows it to cool and drop down the steps giving you cold uncirculated "dead" spots in the house. That's it's natural path that gravity (hotter lighter, cooler heavier) causes it to circulate. It's easy moving it in the direction it wants to go.
Is there a finished ceiling in basement, or open joists? Do they run from stove to where vents would go like channels, or does the heat have to cross them?
Hot air rises, cold air drops, and heat radiates in all directions. So turn your house upside down in your head and imagine the heat source as water. The stove is a big faucet, and the water has to fill the ceiling and downstairs until it gets to the stairwell where it falls like a waterfall towards the upstairs ceiling filling that first. It migrates across the ceiling and drops as it cools back down the steps. Now picture vents above the stove like drains for the water coming from stove area to fill the ceiling and run "down" the ceiling vents like drains. Think of the water filling the house upside down, that's where the heat will go. Now it cools and drops down the steps like a waterfall back down to be reheated. That's a loop from one end to the other. You don't want it piped over by the stairwell since it will go to the ceiling above it, cool and drop down the steps. It has no reason to travel across the house. Old gravity systems were vented like that from coal furnace in basement to the second floor to allow natural circulation without fans that worked fine.
A better way to balance yours would be two vents in hall at stove end, and one with a small fan blowing up through a vent at the other corner on the stove end. That makes it more even at the warm end to migrate through the entire house as it cools headed back down. That eliminates stagnet areas with no circulation.

 

[hoho]

have you thought of moving stove to centered in basement or closer to stairs.if you move it you will get heat moving up the stairs,along with insulation in basement.if holes are cut in floor you may find insurance and home inspector do not like that.had a person lose coverage.most code it a violation to cut holes in floor.

 

[begreen]

Holes thru the floor should not be made unless they are sized and located correctly. Usually they require fusible-link fire dampers in them. It's best to check with the local inspecting authority to establish code requirements for the jurisdiction.

 

[evanm1089]

No ceiling in the basement yet. And the heat wood have to cross them as the joists are running short ways across the house. I understand what you're saying about creating a convection like process. My only problem is, above the stove is a guest room and next to it is another guest room. Across the hallway, opposite corner of the stove but same side of the house is the master. I am afraid of putting floor vents in the bedrooms because of overheating just the bedrooms and not the living area. Also because of possible smoke or CO buildup.

Right now grandpa is keeping the upstairs 65-68* with outside temps in the teens. I'm ok with that. Using about a rounded wheelbarrow load a day. Maybe a little less. (I'd like to be less)

I think with finished walls in the basement I could save a lot more heat...

Still trying to find the best method.

 

[evanm1089]

I'm also not opposed to moving the stove to the other end of the basement and having another chimney built. But that's requiring more money which is why I got the wood stove in the first place!

 

[evanm1089]

I underst

You don't want the heat piped to the upper floor next to where it comes down when it's cool. It wouldn't circulate through the rest of the house. You want the lighter more buoyant warm air to rise upstairs, and as it cools it gets heavier and drops. That makes it rise on the stove side and cooler air falling down the steps allows it to move through the house keeping it more even through the house. Admitting hot air near the cold air return (steps) allows it to cool and drop down the steps giving you cold uncirculated "dead" spots in the house. That's it's natural path that gravity (hotter lighter, cooler heavier) causes it to circulate. It's easy moving it in the direction it wants to go.
Is there a finished ceiling in basement, or open joists? Do they run from stove to where vents would go like channels, or does the heat have to cross them?
Hot air rises, cold air drops, and heat radiates in all directions. So turn your house upside down in your head and imagine the heat source as water. The stove is a big faucet, and the water has to fill the ceiling and downstairs until it gets to the stairwell where it falls like a waterfall towards the upstairs ceiling filling that first. It migrates across the ceiling and drops as it cools back down the steps. Now picture vents above the stove like drains for the water coming from stove area to fill the ceiling and run "down" the ceiling vents like drains. Think of the water filling the house upside down, that's where the heat will go. Now it cools and drops down the steps like a waterfall back down to be reheated. That's a loop from one end to the other. You don't want it piped over by the stairwell since it will go to the ceiling above it, cool and drop down the steps. It has no reason to travel across the house. Old gravity systems were vented like that from coal furnace in basement to the second floor to allow natural circulation without fans that worked fine.
A better way to balance yours would be two vents in hall at stove end, and one with a small fan blowing up through a vent at the other corner on the stove end. That makes it more even at the warm end to migrate through the entire house as it cools headed back down. That eliminates stagnet areas with no circulation.

I understand. Just wish there was a better way without putting 120* heat in the bedrooms. Thank you for your help and suggestions.

 

[begreen]

Post a sketch of the first floor plan so that we can see its relation to the basement floor plan.

 

[evanm1089]

 

[otsegony]

I have a similar installation to this that actually works quite well for me. I have a 2000 sq. ft. two story home with a Fisher Grandpa clone in the basement hooked up to an interior 8" chimney. The house is a little over 10 years old and well insulated. Originally the plan was to have an indoor wood boiler (Tarm or the like) to drive my radiant floor heat. The building budget didn't cover that so I have a Burnham oil boiler that flows into staple-up radiant tubing. While the house was being constructed the builder, knowing I wasn't putting the wood boiler in, suggested adding a couple of cold air returns so I could put a wood stove in temporarily. The returns are simply round sheet metal ducting that go up to the living room and hall on the first floor. They then come down to a point about 4 or 5 feet away from the stove and the ducting terminates about an inch or two above the floor. To meet code the basement walls were insulated with fiberglass batting with a vinyl cover.
Because I was also looking to save money in anticipation of the boiler I bought a used Canadian Fisher-type stove that is very similar to the Grandpa. It heats the whole house comfortable down to about 15 or 20 degrees. Below that the oil boiler will fire occasionally to heat the upstairs or when the fire has died down in the stove. The system is simple, it provides about 75-80% of my heating needs and is easy to maintain.
For your situation I would suggest that the first order of priority would be to insulate the walls. I saw the need for this when the house was being built and the heat was on without insulation. The snow around the house was melted out about 3 or 4 feet from the cellar wall on the exterior of the house. With the insulation, the snow is right up against the wall with no visible melting. Also, you might want to consider adding some simple cold air returns from the first floor to the basement without involving the present heating system. This passive system doesn't break building codes and helps increase the air circulation in the house. When my stove is going full tilt the air flow from the returns will bend the flame on a candle over by about 90 degrees.
I hope this is helpful to you.

 

[begreen]

Thanks, the diagram is very helpful. I would have an insert or a freestanding stove in the living room fireplace and be done with it. Otherwise a large floor register in the hallway would probably be the best bet, after the basement is insulated. Next to that, selling the stove and putting in a wood furnace is worth considering.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Not to totally bastardize the thread,,,,,

I'm pricing out XPS insulation to insulate my bare block basement as well. The difference between 1" and 2" is double the price. Would 1" be worlds better than just bare walls, or will I likely see very little difference? Clearly, 2" is much better, but I have no plans to turn the basement into a finished space, just a workspace and less cold area.

 

[aussiedog3]

Turn off your furnace fan. Trust me. Your upstairs will warm up.

 

[beardley]

Not to totally bastardize the thread,,,,,

I'm pricing out XPS insulation to insulate my bare block basement as well. The difference between 1" and 2" is double the price. Would 1" be worlds better than just bare walls, or will I likely see very little difference? Clearly, 2" is much better, but I have no plans to turn the basement into a finished space, just a workspace and less cold area.

Not to bastardized further but I'm in the syracuse area too and I bought used XPS from a guy in oneonta for about 1/2 the price of new. I insulated on the outside and below the basement wall/floor. PM me if you want his contact info.