Moving the heat?

[rparker]

Having a time trying to move heat into the kitchen area. Have tried numerous fan locations: doorway corner fans, return fans on floor, etc. Still can't get far rooms up to a comfortable level. The floor return fan "kinda" worked but the boss does NOT like having to walk around a fan in the doorway (narrow doorways).
Was thinking about cutting an opening in the floor in kitchen and ducting in the cellar to a corner in the room with the stove (with a small duct fan).
Material costs are nothing (have a bunch of insulated ducting) and the cellar is unfinished.
Have attached a pdf of the floor plan - hope it comes through.
Any other ideas?
TIA

 

[nayslayer]

Only thing I can offer is that you should blow cold air towards stove, not the other way around

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Cutting holes in floors is generally frowned upon by the code folks as it provides a path and a chimney effect for both the heat and flame of a fire to quickly spread.

There are spring loaded thermally triggered floor grates for this use that may get your local code folks blessing.

Can you put a fan in the wall down low to move the air and not be in the way?

It is a catch-22 situation.

Just make certain of what you can do before cutting holes.

 

[rparker]

The only place to put a fan in a wall would be through the stair down to the cellar. Still trying to work it out - just looking for ideas.

 

[kinsmanstoves]

Are you using ceiling fans? I would not cut holes in the floors to move heat from a pellet stove. A pellet stove is an appliance designed for "spot" heating not whole house heating. A pellet Furnace will do whole house heating.

Yes I understand you are attempting to heat the entire house. Ceiling fans move the most air and cost less than trying to reinvent the wheel in time and labor by going wild with a sawzall. I will guess you have 1,100-1,400 sqft. The Classic Bay should have no problem keeping that area warm. Another long term option would be to increase your insulation value of the basement and main floor of the house.

Eric

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Well I don't know their respective sizes are but there appear to be 13 windows in the floor plan you provided with 10 of them being on the upper hard to heat area maybe you could tell us about those windows and the insulation you have in the attic/cap.

I just finished making interior storm windows to help even out the temperature difference between the rooms and floors here. I made 16 interior storm windows. Two of which are in the room with the stove, two in the garage, and 12 are on the primary living floor. It will be a while before I know the results but I suspect it will help quite a bit. I still have to install 4 of them on the primary living floor.

I didn't get to the attic this year to add more insulation had other things to do.

 

[Bioburner]

Insulation has some of the fastest returns for your money on heating costs. I went from a r40 to r60 in my roof space and saw over 20 percent less fuel use that winter. That paid for the insulation as I did it myself one Saturday with the rental blower that was included with the insulation purchase. Remember to get some dust masks.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Insulation has some of the fastest returns for your money on heating costs. ... snip

Yep, I have added insulation to every house I've ever owned and lived in, it has always paid off.

But the trick is to nail your biggest heat losses first, after air infiltration if a house is already insulated to some degree, it is usually the windows.

 

[Bioburner]

Please don't forget the doors. A good storm door is nearly invaluable. My first homes doors were so bad that one night I left a bottle of pop between it and a door cozy and found it frozen the next morning.

 

[slls]

I heat my house 1500 ft, med heat, high fan. Down all rooms warm, up good for sleeping.

 

[rparker]

Little house history. House was built in late 1800's-early 1900's. Walls are full of insulation (but it is vermiculite). Attic is nearly impossible to get to but even so it has exposed knob and tube wiring. (Have had it checked and it is still ok). But that means no additional insulation in the attice. Have been working on the windows (storms, etc). May have to look into interior panels. Low ceilings so ceiling fans are probably out.
Doing my best to button it up but without a full gut out, not going to get much better. Going to do more work on sealing.
Living room is good (that is where the stove is), dining is ok but having trouble moving heat into the kitchen.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Well the vermiculite can be removed and replaced with foam. The K&T in the attic can be replaced and then you can insulate.

How tight is the house in terms of drafts around the doors, windows, outside wall electrical outlets and switches, and sill?

Then the basement walls down to at least 4 feet below ground level and around any penetrations into the house such as fuel oil fill pipes?

Does the house have straight shots except for windows and doors between the attic and basement sill in each wall cavity? Just trying to figure out how easy it would be to suck the vermiculite out.

There is always something to contend with when trying to take care of an old building.

 

[bbfarm]

What is a door cozy?

From your floor plan my question is why you didn't install the stove in the most central room of the house? - the dining room.

I too would have liked to have the stove in our living room but our dining room was most central location and it has worked out great. Is there anyway you could move it?

maybe just a small electric heater for the kitchen?

 

[smoke show]

What is a door cozy?

aka door draft guard.

 

[rparker]

If I could afford major renovations (windows, rewiring, etc), they would have already been done. As for removing the vermiculite, the majority of vermiculite insulation used in the US contains asbestos. Had mine tested and it DOES. So that becomes a VERY expensive project.
As far as relocating the stove, the living room is about the only place available. The heat does flow nicely up the stairs.
The dining room did not work because of the bay window and distance from venting to windows.
Guess this has gone in another direction.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Look at the last line of my signature and can you use a saw, drill, and screw driver?

If so build some interior storm windows and since they generally pay for themselves in very short order. In under a season and would cost less to do all of those windows shown in the floor plan than to have someone else install a single new window and in some cases to even pay for a single new window.

You have told us that you can't put a fan in the wall (I can see one place that would have a fan move the cold air side of things into the dining room.) to recreate what the floor fan was somewhat helping to do because the woman of the house doesn't like it because it is in the way. We don't really have a lot of options except to stop the heat loss in those far away rooms in short allowing what heat that gets there to stay longer.

 

[Don2222]

Having a time trying to move heat into the kitchen area. Have tried numerous fan locations: doorway corner fans, return fans on floor, etc. Still can't get far rooms up to a comfortable level. The floor return fan "kinda" worked but the boss does NOT like having to walk around a fan in the doorway (narrow doorways).
Was thinking about cutting an opening in the floor in kitchen and ducting in the cellar to a corner in the room with the stove (with a small duct fan).
Material costs are nothing (have a bunch of insulated ducting) and the cellar is unfinished.
Have attached a pdf of the floor plan - hope it comes through.
Any other ideas?
TIA

There is only one answer here from looking at your layout PDF.
Broan Nutone 6" Through Wall Ventilation Fan 512M

From Living Room right into the Kitchen area! This will make a big difference!
http://www.theenergyconscious.com/wea1280.html?gclid=CMudlJ3OgLMCFcNM4AodfC0AWg

 

[rparker]

STB and Don, thanks for the ideas. Wonder about doing both. A grill and fan low in the wall by bath door blowing into the dining room and a supply fan at the stair landing blowing higher into the kitchen.
Smokey, have the tools and wood to do interior storms. What did you use for the panels?
TIA

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

rparker,

Here is the full skinny on interior storms I used to make mine, just get the clearest shrink film you can find (not what is in the hardware store as these are double pane ones and the stuff in the hardware store gets cloudy when two get used). Also make certain that if there are longer than 60" sides that you add an additional spreader as the shrinking can bow the frame.

http://www.arttec.net/Thermal-Windows/index.html

 

[rparker]

Smokey, Thanks for the info. Appears simple enough.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Until you discover you really could use a second set of arms and hands. The large ones were a pain and I will have to redo one of mine next spring for now it is installed and I don't plan on pulling it out. I did two frames, to cover the patio door going to our "front" back story up deck. One of the frames bowed in when the film shrunk and to make matters worse the patio door frame on the other side was also bowed towards the wall studs (this just requires a bit of a trim job on the gasket). So next spring it is remove everything insert two spreaders and make a minor adjustment to the existing spreaders (1/4" each).

I have 3 double windows that also got the two frame treatment but they do not have long sides. They have been test fitted and are fine, one set is already installed. Later today I'll install one set the last has to wait for the boss to give up the window sill she decorates up at Christmas time (was told to keep my paws off).

 

[rparker]

Well. my daughter has been looking for a project so I can "bond" with the son-in-law. Nice guy, fairly handy, welder by trade. Good to have a welder in the family. He has already made me the pieces for an OAK that I am installing very soon.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Well. my daughter has been looking for a project so I can "bond" with the son-in-law. Nice guy, fairly handy, welder by trade. Good to have a welder in the family. He has already made me the pieces for an OAK that I am installing very soon.

Well that may be a good thing.

 

[Ejectr]

Until you discover you really could use a second set of arms and hands. The large ones were a pain and I will have to redo one of mine next spring for now it is installed and I don't plan on pulling it out. I did two frames, to cover the patio door going to our "front" back story up deck. One of the frames bowed in when the film shrunk and to make matters worse the patio door frame on the other side was also bowed towards the wall studs (this just requires a bit of a trim job on the gasket). So next spring it is remove everything insert two spreaders and make a minor adjustment to the existing spreaders (1/4" each).

I have 3 double windows that also got the two frame treatment but they do not have long sides. They have been test fitted and are fine, one set is already installed. Later today I'll install one set the last has to wait for the boss to give up the window sill she decorates up at Christmas time (was told to keep my paws off).

What did you use for shrink film. I used the stuff that comes in a Frost King window kit. HD didn't have any on a roll. The roll on the instructional web page is WAY too much film for what I need. Obviously, it would give you a good supply for puncture repairs. These things are going to be difficult to find a storage area for during the off season.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I used the Frost King that is why I'm telling rparker to stay away from it. I now need to remove my outside screens to let more light in.

Might as well have a really clear view. I used a fair amount of film as it was. The roll featured would be what you get if you get a number of folks together to make a pile of windows or if you had a place like the last two I owned before this one both were large two family homes one was converted back to a single family home it had 7 windows in the living room just for starters, the other had more window area per floor than this house has in total including the patio door.