Mulching yard waste
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DBoon
Minister of Fire
Yeah, I do this too with branches that for trees that I'm cleaning up. I have enough property to just get it somewhere strategic where the wildlife will benefit from it. When I have a tree service come, I have them bring a chipper and chip the smaller branches (<3") and give me wood chips. That same company drops off wood chips that meet my specifications (branches <3", deciduous trees only) for no charge, and I provide them with free cases of root beer now and again. It's a deal that works for everyone.
DBoon
Minister of Fire
Yes, that's probably what I'll get. I really just need to reduce yard waste to a smaller size/volume for my vegetable garden. Leaves unshredded are a pain to use, and trying to shred them with a brush hog is a mess (tried that) or a lawn mower takes too much time and they are not shredded well enough.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
I have been following this one all along and have just one Q. What is best for the planet?
It sounds to me like OP has a surplus of brown/ carbon for his own personal compost pile and doesn't garden much anyway. But doesn't really have enough green/nitrogen to make a compost operation.
So he can either bring in some excess green/nitrogen and start making compost, or provide his excess brown/carbon to someone who has some free space and excess green, like a chicken farmer.
I have the same problem on my own much smaller plot. I have about 32 cuft of brown, mostly pruned raspberry canes from last autumn, that have been under the snow since last September as a habitat for whatever bugs want to over winter there. In another week or so I can take all that brown/carbon to the transfer station and continue to deplete the soil my raspberries grow on, or I can take my brown to a composter, or I can bring in some green and tie up some sqft, or I can buy chemicals to spray on my land.
Somewhere on the planet there just has to be a big pile of green/nitrogen to offset or mix with the brown/carbon all us suburbanites are generating. Where is it, and how can we mix them in one big heap without burning a bunch of diesel?
It sounds to me like OP has a surplus of brown/ carbon for his own personal compost pile and doesn't garden much anyway. But doesn't really have enough green/nitrogen to make a compost operation.
So he can either bring in some excess green/nitrogen and start making compost, or provide his excess brown/carbon to someone who has some free space and excess green, like a chicken farmer.
I have the same problem on my own much smaller plot. I have about 32 cuft of brown, mostly pruned raspberry canes from last autumn, that have been under the snow since last September as a habitat for whatever bugs want to over winter there. In another week or so I can take all that brown/carbon to the transfer station and continue to deplete the soil my raspberries grow on, or I can take my brown to a composter, or I can bring in some green and tie up some sqft, or I can buy chemicals to spray on my land.
Somewhere on the planet there just has to be a big pile of green/nitrogen to offset or mix with the brown/carbon all us suburbanites are generating. Where is it, and how can we mix them in one big heap without burning a bunch of diesel?
A neighbor's lawn clippings are a good source. Just make sure the neighbor is not using herbicides or pesticides on their lawn.
It really appears this is not worth the effort and space it will take, but to answer the question, everyone here uses herbicides and pesticides in their lawn. It's an affluent neighborhood of large showcase lawns to boost curb appeal, most of which have scheduled service from one fertilizer company or another. I'm doing my own, but even I use weed block and pesticide (usually Prodiamine in March, Allectus in June). It's really hard to have a decent lawn in this climate without these products.
I have taken recently to scraping the mower deck after each mowing, once I noticed how badly it's starting to rust from the bottom up. So, I'm getting a good 2 - 3 gallons of wet clippings off of that every 3-4 days, to toss onto the topsoil pile alongside the chicken crap and coffee grounds. But as noted, it's from a lawn that's been treated with Prodiamine and Allectus.
I have taken recently to scraping the mower deck after each mowing, once I noticed how badly it's starting to rust from the bottom up. So, I'm getting a good 2 - 3 gallons of wet clippings off of that every 3-4 days, to toss onto the topsoil pile alongside the chicken crap and coffee grounds. But as noted, it's from a lawn that's been treated with Prodiamine and Allectus.
Maybe. But to be honest, I would be really surprised if a little Prodiamine used in March is going to have much impact on the breakdown of grass collected throughout the season. My lawn generates roughly 30 tons of clippings per season, and while I'm no chemist, I have some trouble believing that the 2.4 lb. (< 0.8 lb./acre) of Prodiamine I spread across it once each march is really going to impact its breakdown. In fact, the chemical is specifically engineered to NOT inhibit breakdown of clippings, as this would create thatch problems in the lawns upon which it is used.
Put otherwise, pro turf companies who use this chemical specifically for maintaining the best lawns and athletic fields would find it counterproductive to use the product, if the assertion that it inhibits breakdown had any merit. Perhaps this recommendation to never use grass from a lawn treated with weed block is just a case of people citing and repeating bad information, without any real knowledge or valid basis for it.
Put otherwise, pro turf companies who use this chemical specifically for maintaining the best lawns and athletic fields would find it counterproductive to use the product, if the assertion that it inhibits breakdown had any merit. Perhaps this recommendation to never use grass from a lawn treated with weed block is just a case of people citing and repeating bad information, without any real knowledge or valid basis for it.
Echo/Bearcat makes a chipper shredder couple sizes. I have the top of the line from a few years back. The shredder portion will handel up to 1" dia.' diameter items and the chipper portion 4" plus rounds ( they list as 5" but I never seen a square tree trunk) It works very well. ain't cheap . I got it for a place i used to have with much the same desciption as yours, times change sold that place out in country now don't need it anymore , problem is I am in WI long haul to PA. mine is stand alone they might have a pto version It will grind /chip everything up to the smallest setting of apx1/4" x 1/2". Unlike a lot of the units out there this does exactly as advertised. The shredder portion is a hammer mill hence the ability to get such small size. I guess you could call it a semi commercial unit. It has a long spout that is directionally adjustable. spits it out a good ten feet, tall enough to spit into a baby dump truck. Wood stuff, ground small, mixed with grass clipping and whatever else- those piles will be smoking hot after a bit making black gold for you. Hot enough to kill most pathogins and bugs. Just what the doctor ordered. Ya I hated trying haul the yard stuff to the local recycling center- PIA with no dump trailer. With local ordinances had no where to store said trailer.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
I don't think the point about chemicals was about inhibiting breakdown. It was more of "have compost, put it on a garden (food), hence better no chemicals". (However small the concentration might be.)
Oh, got it. But I don't do vegetable gardens, so zero concern with that. All of our gardens are shrub and flower only. We have probably 0.8 acres of them, though.
Yes, it is the contamination of the compost that is the concern. Some compounds break down relatively quickly, but others are persistent for years. Clopyralid and other similar compounds (aminopyralid) can stay persistent for several years. Compost contaminated with these compounds can kill garden crops, especially legumes. It looks like Prodiamine has an activity level of 6 months so it could contaminate compost but less so. Allectus is Imidacloprid which has the same issues. It breaks down very slowly. It's halflife is about a year, and it is mainly harmful to pollinators, fish, and insects, the very ecosystem that helps keep the soil alive.
The other issue of concern is whether they are safe to use near streams, lakes, or shallow wells. The amount may seem small, but acres of lawns times hundreds of houses can add up to a serious problem for water supplies. This is especially a concern when misapplication is common. It is toxic to fish and invertebrates and pollinators. Allectus is worse for persistence and is extremely toxic to fish and aquatic invertebrates.
The other issue of concern is whether they are safe to use near streams, lakes, or shallow wells. The amount may seem small, but acres of lawns times hundreds of houses can add up to a serious problem for water supplies. This is especially a concern when misapplication is common. It is toxic to fish and invertebrates and pollinators. Allectus is worse for persistence and is extremely toxic to fish and aquatic invertebrates.
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semipro
Minister of Fire
We traced a failure of our veggie garden one year back to our use of composted manure from horses grazing on pastures treated with Grazon.
Herbicide Carryover in Hay, Manure, Compost, and Grass Clippings | NC State Extension Publications
Many farmers and home gardeners have reported damage to vegetable and flower crops after applying horse or livestock manure, compost, hay, or grass clippings to the soil. The symptoms reported include poor seed germination; death of young plants; twisted, cupped, and elongated leaves; misshapen...
content.ces.ncsu.edu
I'd believe it. But that's a post-emergent herbicide, whereas the chemical being previously debated was a pre-emergent germination inhibitor.We traced a failure of our veggie garden one year back to our use of composted manure from horses grazing on pastures treated with Grazon.
Herbicide Carryover in Hay, Manure, Compost, and Grass Clippings | NC State Extension Publications
Many farmers and home gardeners have reported damage to vegetable and flower crops after applying horse or livestock manure, compost, hay, or grass clippings to the soil. The symptoms reported include poor seed germination; death of young plants; twisted, cupped, and elongated leaves; misshapen...content.ces.ncsu.edu
Yes, that contains aminopyralid. It tends to get concentrated in the manures when digested by horses and cows and is persistent for several years. These products are banned in Western WA now, but can still be used in eastern WA where a lot of prime hay and alfalfa come from. Clopyralid contamination shut down the very successful ZooDoo compost program at the Woodland Park Zoo for years. (Elephants eat a lot of hay). Aminopyralid wreaked havoc on Skagit farmers when they spread manure and it killed their corn crop. I found out the same way. It killed a few garden beds a couple of decades ago and rendered them unsuitable for 3 years. Now I avoid manures except from livestock that I know have not eaten any eastern WA hay or alfalfa.We traced a failure of our veggie garden one year back to our use of composted manure from horses grazing on pastures treated with Grazon.
Herbicide Carryover in Hay, Manure, Compost, and Grass Clippings | NC State Extension Publications
Many farmers and home gardeners have reported damage to vegetable and flower crops after applying horse or livestock manure, compost, hay, or grass clippings to the soil. The symptoms reported include poor seed germination; death of young plants; twisted, cupped, and elongated leaves; misshapen...content.ces.ncsu.edu
Grazon safety label info:
• Manure and urine from animals consuming grass or hay treated with this product may contain enough aminopyralid to cause injury to sensitive broadleaf plants. • Hay can only be used on the farm or ranch where product is applied unless allowed by supplemental labeling
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stoveliker
Minister of Fire
Thought I'd come back and close the loop on this one. I hauled a load over to the local mulching facility today, and although unloading took over an hour of back-breaking work, it felt good not having to spend several days burning all of this waste. I determined that I need a better unloading method, if I'm going to do this again, as this load (not unusual) contained a half dozen shrubs and tree stumps, each weighing a few hundred pounds alone, and piled atop and between a mess of several hundred arm-diameter branches. I had been mashing it down into the trailer with the front end loader while doing my pruning last week, and the full load was at least a few thousand pounds (my 7000 lb. trailer was squatting a bit).
Here's some photos of the place, within cycling distance of my house:
I'm thinking I need to get one of those moving bed floors, essentially a heavy tarp made of conveyor material, that I can put down in the trailer before loading. That way, when I get to the mulching facility, I can just hook the ring on the end of my tarp to one of their front-end loaders (or even my pickup truck), and drag the whole mess out. Thankfully, one of their loader drivers was patient enough to allow me to chain up to several individual root balls, and drag them out in pairs, as I was unable to move them by hand.
Here's some photos of the place, within cycling distance of my house:
I'm thinking I need to get one of those moving bed floors, essentially a heavy tarp made of conveyor material, that I can put down in the trailer before loading. That way, when I get to the mulching facility, I can just hook the ring on the end of my tarp to one of their front-end loaders (or even my pickup truck), and drag the whole mess out. Thankfully, one of their loader drivers was patient enough to allow me to chain up to several individual root balls, and drag them out in pairs, as I was unable to move them by hand.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
How far is the mulching center? think those moving floors always seem better than they function. The amount of weight you had I’d like to know how strong the moving floor is. Then you have to uncover it without damaging it. Load it back home.
Dump trailer?? But really how many loads a year are we talking about. I’d just take more, smaller loads. Big items will need helped out with the loader. A lot could be done with a big rope laid down first.
Good for you. That's a job well done. Looks like a hydraulic lift bed would help here.
Can you come to our yard? We seem to create about 7-15 cu yds of yard waste a year and have to pay to have it hauled away these days.
semipro
Minister of Fire
I've already reserved a large auto feed rental chipper for the labor day weekend. We have a lot of tree limbs and brush to process from land management and opening up our solar PV system's view. We use the chips on trails, bed, etc.
I wish we could find a handy and affordable way to use them for house heating.
I wish we could find a handy and affordable way to use them for house heating.
More trips, with lighter loads. Lay long branches with butt ends facing back of trailer. Stack multiple long branches on bottom, all butt ends should be grabable. Put rest of the waste on top of the bed of branches, don't make it to crazy heavy. At the dump yard, Grab the butt ends and pull the piles off using the branches as your "moving mat". Or tie rope / chain onto a few of the butt ends and drag off trailer with a front end loader, or truck with hitch. Or tie butt end attached rope/chain to a tree or stable point and drive trailer forward.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
So, I have a PTO hammer Mill combined with a regular chipper disk made by wallenstein. I say it's a hammer Mill first, because the chipper feels like the secondary part to me. With just a gravity hopper feeding material to the disk, it doesn't work well unless it feed just right and the disk pulls the wood in, which has to be mostly straight with few or any branches.
On the other hand, the hammer mill is amazing, if your material is no larger than 3" in any dimension, probably 2" for hardwoods, which is what the machine is actually rated for. Even with just 40 or less HP at the PTO the hammer mill self feeds quiet enthusiastically if the material is fairly long. Short clippings are annoying with the spring loaded hopper doors, but I just use a sapling as a sacrificial plunger. I have run full on 3" spruce saplings with all branches intact right into the hammer mill hopper with no issues.
At full PTO speed I can run 3" diameter spruce and fir tree tops with a bit of bogging down on the PTO speed, but everything seems fine and it comes back up to full speed pretty quickly. Mostly straight 4" logs with no branches will run through the chipper disc fairly well with some encouragement, but I stop encouraging the material once it's the same length as the hopper chute and just wait for it to bounce against the disc until it's slowly turned into chips while I keep loading small stuff into the mill hopper.
All that being said, I don't know if that's enough material to justify a PTO hammer mill, and there's only two that I know of, and both are expensive. The pile of chips and/or shreds remaining after I run what looks like a massive pile of branches is actually pretty depressing. Sometimes I regret the rather large purpose, but man it's a great tool when I need it. I a few hours I can easily make a few yards of material working alone. With a partner it takes half the time. Next year I'll be using it my garden again. Last year it made such a difference with weeding, but I skipped it this year and have well conditioned soil that is very weed friendly!
1.5 miles = 7 minutes by car... probably 10 minutes on these small winding roads with that trailer.
... and store it! I was thinking something like 20 feet of 72" wide conveyor belting, or even chain link fence to lay down on the floor of the trailer before loading.
If I had a heavier truck and infinite barn space, adding a dump trailer to the current fleet of four trailers would be nice. But most of my material hauling and dumping is incoming, and it's easier to just pay the supply house to send their dump truck.
This is honestly the first load I've hauled out in almost ten years, I usually burn all of this stuff. But as noted in my opening post on this thread, that's been the source of some issues. I'd like to start using this at least every time my gardener comes, as he usually leaves at least half to one full trailer load of debris for me to burn after each visit. Some of his "visits" take 2 - 3 days in a row, we have a lot of garden space.
Well, that was just two afternoons' worth of my own tree trimming and shrub pulling, and the volume of material wasn't as big a problem as the weight of a few individual items (shrubs with root balls). Thankfully, the loader they had on site had a chain on the bucket, as the bucket alone was as big as my trailer, no way to scoop it out.
This is essentially what I did with tow straps, but they pulled thru the mess, leaving most of it on the trailer. A knotted rope net would actually work real well here, but could be a real mother to pull free from the debris, once it's off the trailer.
edit: next time I think I'll just set a pallet or two down in the front of the trailer before loading up, with a chain looped thru them. That way, I can just drag the whole mess out by the chain, using truck or a loader.
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