Napoleon 1900 or Harman Oakwood

[Rickochet]

I am looking for some opinions on the 1900 & the Oakwood. Both stoves look like a good fit for our application. I only saw a few reviews on the Oakwood, and nothing real current on the 1900. What feedback to you seasoned veterans have on these 2 stoves?

Thanks in advance!

 

[KeithO]

Napoleon reviews I have seen have not been favorable. Efficiency seems down compared to catalytic stoves or some of the better non catalytic stoves like Pacific Energy. There is a poster from northern Canada who called his former Napoleon stove a "wood waster". I considered their "gormet" cookstove but since I didn't find favorable reviews I gave it a skip.

I personally liked the Oakwood, the build quality seemed very favorable and the door latch on the one I looked at was like something made in Switzerland. What didn't work for me was the very large rear clearance requirement. I did not have enough depth available in the room to allow the Oakwood to fit acceptably. If you have a non combustible wall behind the stove this will not be an issue but for me it was a biggie. I had a similar problem with the Woodstock soapstone stoves, the VC Defiant and the larger Jotuls. The Pacific Energy stoves all have tight rear clearances, as did my Morso 7110.

 

[begreen]

The Oakwood is a sleeper, but appears to be a good stove if the draft requirements are met. I considered it strongly, but it didn't fit my clearances requirements either. The owners on the forum so far seem to really like it. I also like the Napoleon. Have you looked at the stove ratings? https://www.hearth.com/ratings/search.php

 

[TruePatriot]

Richochet:

You may be interested in my experience with the Harman Stove Company. The quote, near the beginning of this post, is the verbatim statement of a Harman dealer in PA. Here is the link: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/6822/

I have spoken with a female rep. at the Napolean factory, in BC and, while it is a HUGE plus that the factory will even TAKE a customer call (see the above link for Harman's position on direct client contact) I was disapointed that not only didn't she know the dimensions of the stove door opening, she also did not have one on premises to measure herself. She estimated (wrongly) but a Napolean owner on this forum set me straight.

I really liked the appearance of the cream/white-colored, enameled Napolean 1900, but the economics of the Englander 30-NC are impossible to argue with--especially when Lowes discounts by 50%, for a price of $449.50 plus tax, for Quadrafire 5700-class performance.

I have also read that Harman recently was purchased, or went bankrupt, or some such. Surely, someone here can clarify any mistake I've made in that statement.

No offense to satisfied Harman owners intended, but given my brief experience with the company, they are the second-to-last stove I would ever buy (Vozelgang--sp?--being the first, based on opinions I've read here, and the fact that, IIRC, they are not E.P.A.-certified.) That said, a good friend of ours has a Harman and loves it--she's a friend of my g.f. and neither of them were able to confirm the model of the Harman they have, but they heat much of their house with it in PA.

My thing is, as a former Customer Service rep., if a mfr. shuffles me off to a dealer, AFTER I've already told the mfr. that the (incompetent, rude) dealer is ignorant, then that tells me that the mfr. is NOT particularly concerned with my "end user" experience.

And then I begin to run....

Englander, on the other hand, seems to epitomize the opposite end of the spectrum, in Customer Service, given the posts I've read here. Counterintuitively, then, it seems that the least expensive, cleanest-burning (large) stove mfr., seems to have the best Customer Service. Mike and Corie, both of whom are employed by Englander, post here regularly and, IMNSHO, pretty much embody the ethos of good customer service.

And although I bought an (as yet uninstalled) Englander 30-NC, I must admit I do still like the looks of the enameled Napolean pedestal models....

I hope this helps.

 

[begreen]

Dealer experience will vary with most any dealership. I have had good and bad with other top name stoves. The Oakwood definitely IS EPA certified. To compare the workmanship and casting quality to a basic big box store stove is not real. Yes both produce a lot of heat but often there are other criteria that are important to the purchaser.

I'm surprised that Englander does not have their own live support site and consider it a bit of a negative. Relying on the good will of it's employees on a public forum seems like weak support considering the volume of stoves produced and sold. Not knocking the stove, just adding some perspective. From reports posted, it sounds like when one calls them there are some good folks standing behind the product.

 

[TruePatriot]

BeGreen,

I’m not sure what you meant by this:

By BeGreen: I’m surprised that Englander does not have their own live support site and consider it a bit of a negative. Relying on the good will of it’s employees on a public forum seems like weak support considering the volume of stoves produced and sold.

(bold emphasis added by TruePatriot)


But, lest I’ve been unclear, let me clarify that Englander has both a website and people that answer the phone, on not one but two toll-free numbers, located at this url: http://www.englandsstoveworks.com/

Just hit either “Support” or “Parts” and you will see the two “800” numbers.

(This is in marked contrast to the Harman Corporate office, who accidentally answsered my call to their alleged "Customer Support" 800 number, then told me I shouldn't have called them, and hung up on me as I described here, linked in the post you responded to, above: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/6822/ ) You should read that conversation I had with the Harman Corporation, at the above link--it ended with "'Well, the number shouldn’t be there, and I can’t help you. Click.'"

IMO, that would be a better example of "weak support"--virtually nonexistent customer service, actually.

What, specifically, does "I’m surprised that Englander does not have their own live support site" mean? What do you consider a "live support site" to be? When I call a mfr., and a real person answers, and attempts to help me, I would consider that to be "live support." Are you referring to a "help desk" type of support, instead of a phone-based system? Not being a smartass—just confused.

And I’m thinking, no offense, that I must not be the only one confused, by this statement of yours:

By Begreen: Relying on the good will of it’s employees on a public forum seems like weak support considering the volume of stoves produced and sold.

How, exactly, did you get the impression that Mike and Corie are here in lieu of a factory “support” program, rather than in addition to Englander's Customer Service Dept., as I intended to convey, by the following statement?

By TruePatriot: Mike and Corie, both of whom are employed by Englander, post here regularly and, IMNSHO, pretty much embody the ethos of good customer service.

I have to believe that you, being a veteran here, (far beyond myself in terms of knowledge and tenure) already know that Mike and Corie are here, on hearth.com, as a welcome addition to Englander’s formal customer support staff? At 8,534 posts, and a moderator, surely, you must know this already?

IOW, just because they "embody the ethos of good customer service," personally, does not mean they REPLACE an entire Customer Service Dept. I never said, nor implied that.

Or am I misunderstanding you? Are you not saying that you believe Englander has no formal Customer Service Dept., other than "...the good will of it’s employees on a public forum...," as you stated?

And lastly, the parenthetical information contained in the following quote is IN parenthesis precisely because it applies solely to the stove company named within said parenthesis—I never said, nor implied, that Harman was not EPA-certified. I have read, on this forum, however, (as I stated) that Vozelgang (sp?) is not EPA-certified. Here is my statement, for your easy reference:

By TruePatriot: No offense to satisfied Harman owners intended, but given my brief experience with the company, they are the second-to-last stove I would ever buy (Vozelgang--sp?--being the first, based on opinions I’ve read here, and the fact that, IIRC, they are not E.P.A.-certified.)

However, I could see how the parenthetical sentence structure could have been confusing---perhaps I should have used words like "former" and "latter," to be clearer--my bad.

Nevertheless, and no offense, but that's still a rather stunning amount of misinterpretation, especially from someone who is as knowledgable as you are, and who's posts I have found to be both very informative and well reasoned. This is also not an attack, but a defense of my words being badly misinterpreted, for reasons that escape me, as I think my writing was pretty clear.

(And for the record, I admit that my explanation of my writing is less probably somewhat less understandable than the original text which you misinterpreted--sorry for that).

But before I go, I'm not sure what you are driving at with this statement:

By BeGreen: To compare the workmanship and casting quality to a basic big box store stove is not real.

"...not real?" Please allow me to assure you that that the comparison between a $2,200.00+ cast Harman (that will require periodic recementing, as most cast stoves do) and a $900.00, welded, plate steel stove, purchased at 50% off, for $449.50, plus tax, is VERY "REAL", if I'm paying.

It's like this: $2,200.00+ stove with it's own dealers saying "Don't buy a Harman woodstove--get their pellet/coal stove instead" vs. a LARGER, 3.5 cu.ft. $900/450., steel stove is VERY REAL indeed. Please read the HARMAN DEALER'S OWN WORDS at this link, on Harman's wood stove quality (as opposed to Harman's pellet and coal stoves): https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/6822/ His last words were "I try not to sell these stoves." Pls read it for yourself at the link.

Again, I hope I have caused you no offense. My intent was just to clarify your apparent misinterpretation.

Peter

 

[begreen]

I’m not going to get into a discussion of my stove is better than your stove. The workmanship put into a fine castiron stove like the Oakwood is appreciated by some and unimportant to others. Some people are happy to drive a Geo Metro, others not. For some folks, stapled together cabinetry does the job just fine. Others like the tactile feel of fine wood, a good finish and appreciate dovetail joinery. Different strokes for different folks, no problem there. Note that the seams on the Oakwood are gasketed which is an example of Harman’s attention to detail.

Both Harman and Englander make more than woodstoves. The bulk of business for Harman is with pellet stoves. It’s there that I see a huge quality difference between products. Harman makes some of the best pellet stoves on the market. Englander does not. Hopefully Corie’s new design will raise the bar. After seeing the high number of Englander auger and other issues showing up in the pellet forum I did a Goggle search for ‘Englander auger problem’ to see how extensive the issue was and if there were any solutions. What came up surprised me. There were several forums where users were venting against Englander and in particular, the poor support for their pellet stoves. Some were pretty damning. Do a search and check out the top few hits.

Corie and Mike are a great asset to the hearth community and truly helpful persons. Good folks. My point was not in anyway to discredit their contributions. It is instead to point out that given the volume of sales and issues, a large volume company like Englander should have it’s own online forum or live chat for its users, especially for the more complex pellet products. Users should not have to go to a public forum in lieu of good support. That doesn’t mean that good people like Mike shouldn’t scan public forums for issues or comments outside of what shows up on the company forums. But I think the bulk of the current traffic, especially pellet stove, should be directly paid and supported by Englander on their own site.

 

[Rickochet]

The thread has taken a slight curve away from the topic of the Oakwood and the Napoleon 1900. What I would like to hear is what feedback is there on the Napoleon especially.

However, all of the information presented has been enlightening!

Thanks,

 

[MishMouse]

BG I agree with you 100%, but would like that idea expanded to all Stove Manufactures as a way to increase sales and enhance customer support.

I even posted comment on the "Comment to the Webmaster" on the Harman Stoves site asking for them to create a tech support forum. I haven't seen any mods to there site as of yet, but I can only hope.

Actual comment I sent to Harman Stoves April 08, 2008 11:26 AM
"I wish you could add a Ask Harman forum for specific Harman Stove related questions. The ask your dealer response is not always the best option since to often the dealer does not know or does not offer good quality service after the sale. If there was a place where someone could ask a Harman tech directly about what the issue is and have the responses posted in a Forum like format additional customers that have the same question will have a place to go to get there questions answered. As a customer, getting a response from a trained tech on the product would give me more confidence in the answer "warm fuzzy" and in the company. Also it would promote customer service and interaction between Harman Stoves and there customers. Remember the best way to build up sales is by word of mouth and customer service is the best way to do so."

Here is there reply April 08, 2008 11:51 AM:
"Thank you for your recent visit to the Harman Stove website. Your comments are appreciated. We are actually considering a forum of some sort. Could be in the not so distant future."

So truthfully if you need a response from Harman try sending a comment to their webmaster, and if you already own a Harman, or thinking of getting one, send a similar response to what I wrote above. Maybe the more response's they get, the better chance they will have to get it going, as with any new project the number of complaints normally decides its priority. If you do not own a Harman, send similar response's to the manufacture of your stove. Wouldn't it be a better world if all the manufactures had tech support forums that could get the answers you need?

 

[begreen]

Agreed, I did not mean to single out Englander or Harman as the sole examples, that's just where the discussion went. Now let's get back on topic. Napoleon 1900 owners being called to the front desk!

 

[STOVEGUY11]

I think that sounds like a good idea; Harman setting up a Forum, but I dont know if I see that happening. One thing I would like to point out is, that if you buy a Chevy Truck or car, you dont call General Motors and bug them when you need a oil change. No you go to the dealer you bought it from and they do it for you.



I like the Oakwood. Its a great stove. I dont have it, but I have seen it in action. I would say it does not get the credit it deserves. I think it gets overlooked alot of the time.

 

[begreen]

Rick did you read this thread about the 1900?

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/9392/

 

[brider]

I just bought a Harmon Oakwood, was considering the Napoleon 1150P, they were both on display at the same dealer, but asthetics took control and my wife and I chose the Harmon. I have not installed it yet. If it was me alone, I'm sure I would have chosen the Napoleon, although the burn times for the Harmon were another factor; way longer than the Napoleon.

Time will tell whether customer service or quality become an issue, but a friend has been using a Harmon for over 15 yrs and loves it.

 

[MishMouse]

I just bought a Harmon Oakwood, was considering the Napoleon 1150P, they were both on display at the same dealer, but asthetics took control and my wife and I chose the Harmon. I have not installed it yet. If it was me alone, I'm sure I would have chosen the Napoleon, although the burn times for the Harmon were another factor; way longer than the Napoleon.

Time will tell whether customer service or quality become an issue, but a friend has been using a Harmon for over 15 yrs and loves it.

Congrats on your new stove.
I am sure the Oakwood will give you many years of good heat.

Did you get the grill option for it?
One thing I like about my TL-300 is when I use the grill cooks it fast and cooks it good with no smoke.
And BBQ when there is 2 feet of snow on the ground and -20 is always a plus.

 

[brider]

Yes, I got the grill option, although my wife swears she will never let me use it. Women! She envisions splattering gease and smoke all over the place. You say it's a pretty clean operation?

 

[begreen]

MM, my wife loved the idea of an indoor winter grille. If it weren't for clearances issues, we might have had an Oakwood today. Do you cook with the lid open or down when things are on the grille? Do you use a stainless splatter shield, like they make for frying bacon?

 

[MishMouse]

The operation is fairly clean.
Since it is a top loader most of the smoke will go right out the chimney.
But, if you have the combustion chamber active and you open one of the doors either front or top it will smoke.
I normally do not run it with the combustion chamber active when I am grilling though you can close the top door for a better smoke taste and less splatter on the outside of the stove.

Now, outside your neighbors will get hungry since they will be able to smell what your cooking.
Some grease does get on the inside door when your cooking depending on the fat content but that will burn off with the heat and you can always clean it off when you clean out your stove.

Remember if you do use your grill option you are cooking over very high heat.
It can turn hamburgers to hockey pucks in no time.

 

[MishMouse]

Do you use a stainless splatter shield, like they make for frying bacon?

No, I don't use a splatter shield, but, that is a very good idea.
Next time I hit the Walmart I will be looking for one.
Thanks, for the idea BG