Narrowing The Field - RSF Opel 3

[Snakebit12]

Hi everyone...I started a new thread so I could get "Opel" into the title, hoping to lure in current Opel owners as well as anyone who would be willing to share their thoughts..

After officially abandoning the insert idea in lieu of a "remove/replace" with a new ZC fireplace, we zeroed in on three units: Opel 3, Quad 7100 and the FPX 36. I don't like the air-cooled chimney on the FPX and would prefer to work with the dealer who sells both the Quad and RSF.

We stopped by the dealer today and The Boss really liked an Opel 3 that was being set up in the showroom. I think that the decorative grills caught her eye. So the lean (today) is towards that unit.

There are almost too many options with these RSF fireplaces.

Subject to our almost daily change in plans, we are leaning towards either:

Option A:

1. A completely louvered unit (with decorative grills ) but no cat
2. Internal blower (for the great room that would contain the fireplace)
3. One dampered gravity vent to heat the kitchen which is adjacent to the great room (am wondering if an inline fan might be a good idea?)

or Option B:

1. A top-louver-only unit (still with a decorative grill)...still no cat. Is this option even allowed?
2. A clean-face air intake that draws cooler air from the basement directly below the great room (can I do this???)
3. Inline fan for the air intake (I just like the idea of a fan somewhere in the mix)
4. One dampered gravity vent to heat the kitchen which is adjacent to the great room which will contain the fireplace
   
5. Note: Maybe I use a powered heat dump instead of the inline fan intake and the "powerless" gravity vent?

See? Too many choices. And, to add one more...

I am totally on the fence regarding the central heating option. Most everything I have read on this option has been very positive but there is a nagging voice in the back of my head saying "this cannot possibly work". We have two heat pumps...main floor & upstairs (with an LP e-heat backup). I would tie into the main floor ducting only - seems logical since the upstairs will get rising heat anyway.

These things aren't cheap - neither is the 28' of Excel chimney required. I still do not have a quote for removal of my current POS ZC and installation of a new ZC.

Any thoughts? Comments from Opel owners?

 

[Jags]

Any thoughts?

As far as the "visual" part of the stove goes...do what the Boss wants. (and this was a shameless bump back to the top).

 

[Grisu]

When using the Opel 3 without cat it is listed as "EPA-exempt". Reason is the high burn rate although it seems to still burn cleanly. I am wondering whether that means the fireplace will chew through the wood relatively quickly without a cat. You may ask for burn rates between cat and non-cat versions.

Regarding the different venting options: Maybe best to ask a HVAC installer who can take a look at your floorplan, heating needs etc. and give you recommendations where to place the vents.

 

[skinanbones]

As far as i know RSF doesn't say anything about which louver can be blocked, but if one is going to be left open i always leave the bottem one for two reasons. The first is so that you can have the ashpan option, makes it allot easier to clean out the unit. The second is so that you can change the fan when it fails in 3-5 years.
I like the idea of using a gravitey vent to the kitchen, it will work better than the heat dump. The heat dump is only 5 inches and comes of the side of the unit which some times can cause harmonics in smaller runs, plus the fan noise can be annoying sometimes.
So my preferance would option a with a ashpan.

 

[Snakebit12]

As far as i know RSF doesn't say anything about which louver can be blocked, but if one is going to be left open i always leave the bottom one for two reasons. The first is so that you can have the ashpan option, makes it allot easier to clean out the unit. The second is so that you can change the fan when it fails in 3-5 years.
I like the idea of using a gravity vent to the kitchen, it will work better than the heat dump. The heat dump is only 5 inches and comes of the side of the unit which some times can cause harmonics in smaller runs, plus the fan noise can be annoying sometimes.
So my preference would option a with a ashpan.

There were two main drivers behind our thinking related to blocking the bottom louver:

1. I have read several posts about ash falling on the hearth while opening the door and getting sucked into the fan (ultimately being blown into the room). Installing a Clean Face Kit (a remote air intake) avoids that possible issue. The blower accessibility issue becomes moot as the blower is not an option without the bottom louver; neither is the ash pan. You can power the remote air intake to assist airflow from the upper louver.
2. It would seem more effective (at least to me) to put the remote air intake in the basement to heat cooler air from the basement rather than warmer air from the fireplace room. Might create positive pressure upstairs as well, helping distribute the heat.

Too many choices...

 

[begreen]

If plan 2 I would intake air for the remote from a cooler part of the house, not the basement. That will help set up a convective flow that will deliver warm air to the cooler room to replace the displaced air.

 

[Snakebit12]

Thanks begreen. As it turns out, I just heard from my dealer - Option B is a no-no. You can install with both louvers, no louvers or just the bottom louver. You can't do just the top louver. Not sure why but that's the instructions from RSF.

 

[lithnights]

I had an Opel 3 installed last summer/fall, while having my home built, and absolutely love it. I won't address your options A vs. B since it seems that question is already answered. But I will let you know that I had a dedicated line of ductwork installed and the RSF blower kit hooked up to blow the heat to the other side of the house (about 50ft..which is the upper end of distance that RSF suggests). I ran ductwork from the Opel 3 (in the family room) down to the basement, across the basement, then back up to the living room which is on the opposite end of the home. It's hooked up to a thermostat in the family room and has a variable control switch. I spent the winter tinkering with the setup (keep on thermostat vs. manually turning on/off) but it works great in getting the heat to the other side of the house. The heat coming out the living room grill is strong and hot..I was very impressed.

Per advice from another Opel 3 owner (who raved and convinced me to get the Opel 3), I did NOT hook into my main ductwork. He had done this, and was disappointed. I imagine your case is a bit different since you're thinking about JUST the 1st floor ductwork, so you may have better success. I didn't have that option, thus the reason I did a dedicated run of ductwork just for the Opel 3 heat. The heat dump you mention is a bit different than the blower kit, but I thought I'd let you know what I did.

If you have any questions, let me know.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the helpful post lithnights. I'm not particularly in favor of tying into the hvac system. There is too much opportunity for a mis-design or compromised due to trunk duct location vs fireplace location, improper installation, sizing issues, lack of back draft prevention, duct insulation, etc. A dedicated run will be properly sized to the RSF blower and if well insulated will deliver hot air to where it's desired as long as it is within the range specced by the mfg..

 

[lithnights]

begreen, all those potential issues do indeed make sense as to why NOT to hook in. I'm glad I didn't, and even though my dedicated run is indeed on the high side of the ideal distance, it works great. It was one of the best things I did during my install. RSF worked with me to give advice to the size of ductwork and even the ideal route to get there (I even did a Y in the ductwork with a damper, to send some heat to an often used home office, which they gave feedback on). Their customer service is second to none. I actually had planned to do a full review of my Opel 3 now that our burning season (here) is about done, so I'll put that on my to do list.

Thanks for the helpful post lithnights. I'm not particularly in favor of tying into the hvac system. There is too much opportunity for a mis-design or compromised due to trunk duct location vs fireplace location, improper installation, sizing issues, lack of back draft prevention, duct insulation, etc. A dedicated run will be properly sized to the RSF blower and if well insulated will deliver hot air to where it's desired as long as it is within the range specced by the mfg..

 

[Snakebit12]

Great stuff. guys. Thanks for the input.

I'm just not comfortable tying into the HVAC so I'm glad to see others in agreement.

Thinking now about where to locate a dedicated run...

 

[lithnights]

Snakebit12,
I went through the same dilemma last year. I scanned a diagram of my floorplan, and attached it to my message, and got quite a bit of feedback from it. Just an idea.

Here is my link to one of my threads..

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...ct-to-other-side-of-home.103446/#post-1346524

Great stuff. guys. Thanks for the input.

I'm just not comfortable tying into the HVAC so I'm glad to see others in agreement.

Thinking now about where to locate a dedicated run...

 

[Snakebit12]

Snakebit12,
I went through the same dilemma last year. I scanned a diagram of my floorplan, and attached it to my message, and got quite a bit of feedback from it. Just an idea.

Here is my link to one of my threads..

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...ct-to-other-side-of-home.103446/#post-1346524

Thanks for the link - I remember reading that thread - and here is the floor plan (main floor only ). Warning - it is a picture of the full size original which is a bit worn. I noted the fireplace location with a red x.

I was thinking of a gravity kit to dump heat into the adjacent kitchen.

 

[Grisu]

Thanks for the link - I remember reading that thread - and here is the floor plan (main floor only ). Warning - it is a picture of the full size original which is a bit worn. I noted the fireplace location with a red x.

I was thinking of a gravity kit to dump heat into the adjacent kitchen.

I think the kitchen will be fine as it has two openings to great room. The living room may be challenged to get enough heat from the fireplace. (Ditto the library, although that seems to have its own fireplace and could be a prime candidate for a small insert at some point.) Question is if you could run a duct over there. I am curious what a HVAC installer would suggest.

 

[Snakebit12]

I think the kitchen will be fine as it has two openings to great room. The living room may be challenged to get enough heat from the fireplace. (Ditto the library, although that seems to have its own fireplace and could be a prime candidate for a small insert at some point.) Question is if you could run a duct over there. I am curious what a HVAC installer would suggest.

Interesting...I suspect that you may be right about the kitchen. Two doors plus a double oven and a stove when in use. The library, which has an LP fireplace, also has a lot of windows and is always a few degrees warmer than the rest of the house so I am not concerned about it. God bless natural sunlight.

The two rooms that I would like to supplement would be the master bedroom and the living room...both of which share a wall (noted in blue on the attached adjusted floor plan). Could I run a single duct to somewhere along that wall wall and install some kind of "dual face" wall register that would feed both rooms from a single duct? Or would I need to split the single duct at the end into two separate floor registers? Probably a good HVAC question.

 

[begreen]

You probable know this already, but the house was not designed with wood heat in mind. It has a lot of separate zones. It looks like this house would be a good candidate for their zone distribution system. I can see 3 -4 zones if you include the dining room. Depending on how fancy you want to get they each could have their own thermostat if desired.

Read this doc for some ideas and options:
(broken link removed to http://www.icc-rsf.com/c/iccrsf/file_db/foyers_options.pdf/FO-FDHCZ2.pdf)

That said, you can split the supply to the LR and MBR by using a Y and dropping down a size in insulated duct. It would be something like an 8x6x6 Y. Consult with RSF on this, with some good planning the fireplace will act like a mini-furnace, quietly pushing its heat into the farther reaches of the house.

 

[Snakebit12]

You probable know this already, but the house was not designed with wood heat in mind. It has a lot of separate zones. It looks like this house would be a good candidate for their zone distribution system. I can see 3 -4 zones if you include the dining room. Depending on how fancy you want to get they each could have their own thermostat if desired.

Read this doc for some ideas and options:
(broken link removed to http://www.icc-rsf.com/c/iccrsf/file_db/foyers_options.pdf/FO-FDHCZ2.pdf)

I already have a zone distribution system for my heat pump on the main floor - 4 zones. The panel shown in your attachment looks strangely similar to my Carrier panel.

It would be nice if there was a way to tie into that system that I could control on my Carrier thermostat utilizing the existing zone dampers, ducting, etc.

Assuming that won't work, I dedicated duct could be used to heat the two rooms using a Y as you suggested.

 

[begreen]

It might be possible to tie into the heat pump system but if so, it should be engineered correctly. It will depend on several factors including the location of the air handler, duct sizing, additional input control in the Carrier panel, back draft vanes, etc.. If not, simply run it as an independent system. It doesn't need to be zoned. It can be run with just a fan control. I would do two take offs, one to the kitchen and one to the MRB/LR. Regardless, give RSF a call for help with planning and design.

 

[Snakebit12]

It might be possible to tie into the heat pump system but if so, it should be engineered correctly. It will depend on several factors including the location of the air handler, duct sizing, additional input control in the Carrier panel, back draft vanes, etc.. If not, simply run it as an independent system. It doesn't need to be zoned. It can be run with just a fan control. I would do two take offs, one to the kitchen and one to the MRB/LR. Regardless, give RSF a call for help with planning and design.

Thanks begreen.

I just emailed my dealer to see if we could have a 3-way conversation with RSF about possibly integrating with my current system and simply to get other ideas from them. You guys keep advising me to call RSF and I've finally listened!

And FYI...the air handler is in the basement literally directly below the fireplace in the basement.

Two follow-up questions if you don't mind:

1. You mentioned controlling the temperature in the MBR/LR with a fan control - does that mean a variable wall switch that controls the speed of the 600 cfm blower?
2. You recommend a duct from the new independent system to the kitchen rather than a gravity vent? The gravity vent seems awfully convenient but it does concern me that the heat enters the kitchen above my head. It would come out of the floor using the independent system.

 

[begreen]

1 -Yes and 2 - yes. I'm not sure heating up high, while convenient, is as good as down low. Heat can stratify in a room which may lead to cold feet in the kitchen. With a 600cfm blower there is plenty capacity for the additional kitchen run. Another option would be to put the blower intake in an area like the kitchen or DR. This will pull heated air from the stove room to that area.

Note, these are my opinions. I have not installed or lived in a house with one of these systems. You are asking good questions. Write them down and pose them to RSF. Let us know what they recommend as your options.

 

[Snakebit12]

I drove up to see my dealer today and we had a conference call with RSF while the technician was looking at my floor plan. A very productive call:

1. You CAN combine the clean face intake (thereby eliminating the lower louver) with the top louver (Option B from my initial post). From a configuration standpoint, you can have either (a lower louver or a clean face intake) and (a top louver or two un-dampened gravity vents). Mix and match at your discretion.
2. Generally speaking, most units sold with cats are because of local regulations. The emissions with the non-cat unit is actually lower than the cat unit. The non-cat will burn through slightly more wood but lots less hassle. Most units sold are non-cat and the tech simply said "if it isn't required, skip it".
3. The optional inline fan that goes into the clean face intake is rated at 225 cfm...slightly higher than the 215 cfm internal blower. However, depending on the length of travel from the intake fan to the firebox, the airflow from the intake fan should be slightly less than the internal blower.
4. Dan agreed with the suggestion of an 8" dedicated duct (about 35' long) to the family room/bedroom wall and splitting to two 6" heat registers. He did not recommend splitting this dedicated duct to also feed the kitchen...felt that most of the heat would end up in the kitchen due to the shorter distance.
5. He was less concerned that I was about the gravity kit feeding near the ceiling in the kitchen...especially when I mentioned that we have a ceiling fan in the kitchen to push the air down.
6. Is it just me or does it not seem counter-intuitive to run your fan backwards to distribute the heat? You'd think that you want to push the warm air down but the logic apparently is to push cooler air upwards and displace the warm air which then flows down the sides of the room. I have read this on this forum but it still strikes me as odd.
7. When the central blower is on full blast, it transfers nearly all heated air flow to the dedicated duct. For that reason, we plan on a variable speed control so that we can properly balance the heat between the great room,

So, pending an acceptable labor quote for removal/installation, we are pretty much decided on the attached configuration. It provides quite a bit of flexibility in distributing the heat...two variable speed controls - one for the air intake and one for the central blower. Plus a dampened gravity vent into the kitchen. Lots of experimenting will be required but we have time - we're retired!

There are still unknowns:

1. I still need a labor quote...hoping to keep it under $2k.
2. I need to be able to run two ducts into the basement: An 8" duct to the central blower (and dedicated duct) and a 4"/5" duct for combustion air intake (depending on the length of the run) to the outside (we have a walk-out basement).
3. I need to either raise or replace my bank barn beam mantel...it is 2.72" too close to the top of the fireplace opening (confirmed by RSF).

Assuming that these issues are resolved, we will have an installed Opel 3 sometime this summer.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the update. You're making good progress. It the drawing from RSF? Does the clean face need an additional fan or just an intake?

Reversing the ceiling fan in the heating season provides a more even, draft free temperature in the room. A fan blowing downward is going to cool the skin. It can also leave the room feeling cooler on it's periphery, especially if these are exterior walls. The air blowing upward mixes cooler room air with the hotter air at the ceiling. This warmed air travels outward to the walls where it descends toward the floor. This evens out the heat in the room while breaking up heat stratification.

 

[Snakebit12]

It the drawing your own or from RSF?

Some of both - the basic firebox drawing is from the RSF brochure. I added ductwork, air flow arrows, and text boxes in Microsoft Word.

It was the only way that my wife could visualize what I was thinking of doing.

 

[begreen]

The reason I ask is I want to know if RSF recommends putting the fan pulling in the hot stove air or do they recommend it supply the cool air on the intake side? There's a big difference. Usually it supplies cool air and the hot air is ducted out to the remote location(s).

Does the clean face need an additional fan or just an intake?

 

[Snakebit12]

The reason I ask is I want to know if RSF recommends putting the fan pulling in the hot stove air or do they recommend it supply the cool air on the intake side? There's a big difference. Usually it supplies cool air and the hot air is ducted out to the remote location(s).

Does the clean face need an additional fan or just an intake?

I'm not 100% sure that I understand your first question but I'll try and answer as best I can. Please forgive me if I reiterate stuff that I've already mentioned.

The standard unit is a firebox - you must choose your intake/output options.

Intake choices:

1. Bottom Louver (internal blower is optional) or
2. Remote Air intake (Inline fan in the air intake is optional)

Output options:

1. Top Louver
2. 2 Gravity vents (no dampers)

The "clean face" is a bit of a misnomer IMO. To me, the "clean face" configuration involves no louvers at all (choosing option #2 for both intake/output). That's clean - no louvers. Cool air comes in through a remote air intake and hot air is expelled through 2 un-dampened gravity vents. As you can see on my diagram, I am looking at a "partial clean face"....the bottom louver is not installed (which requires the remote air intake) but the top louver is installed. It's a hybrid setup, I guess. Somewhere between "clean" and "dirty".

Removing the bottom louver from the configuration does require the air intake...the intake fan is optional. I just like the idea of a fan pushing air through the fireplace if needed and when my wife read other posts on this forum about ashes getting sucked into the internal blower, I knew that the bottom louver configuration was not going to happen. So, we opted for the "clean bottom, dirty top" configuration.

Both the internal blower and air intake fan push "cooler" air through the firebox for heating. Both are shown as optional on their website. RSF indicated that, in most cases, the internal blower (which is only installed w/ the bottom louver) will move a tad bit more air than the intake fan installed in the air intake (which is only installed w/o the bottom louver) due to duct resistance and the shorter distance to the firebox. But they also felt that the difference was not material. I plan to keep that air intake duct as straight as possible to minimize the resistance between the intake fan and the firebox. It will only be 4-5 ft long...with a register just above the floor in the kitchen. Their grill options are pretty neat as an aside.

The central blower is a separate fan which, at full speed, will effectively pull nearly all of the hot air from the firebox. I was told that, when at full blast, little hot air will come out of the gravity vent or the top louver. You would still get some radiant heat in the great room. Rather than either/or heating choices, I am leaning towards variable speed controls on both the air intake fan and the central blower which, when combined with the damper on the gravity vent, should allow me to regulate the heat distribution as circumstances warrant.

I am just spewing stuff here hoping to address your question - did I come remotely close?