Natural Gas in Southeastern Ohio

[walhondingnashua]

seems like the place to post this. Two companies (one from the West and the other based out of New York) are building a Natural Gas power plant in my area. It’s supposed to be the Cleanest way to burn natural gas (uses a second heating system to get 50% more energy) and 95% less water to cool. In a previously coal heavy area, natural gas is replacing it. Turning out to be great for our community and the environment!

 

[begreen]

Is it a cogenerative facility? What is the name of the new plant?

 

[peakbagger]

Sounds like they are building a combined cycle power plant with possibly air cooled condensers. Its great technology if gas is readily available. The installed cost per KW hour is also the lowest of conventional power plants, although air cooled condensers adds to the cost. Once built they just blend into the landscape except for occasional steam blow offs. Once the bugs are worked out, the operators have a tough time finding things to do as they just run. The emissions can be quite low depending on the local regulations. With the exception of a small waste stream from the feedwater treatment system there is no waste from the plant. If the owner wants to spend a few more bucks they can make the plant zero discharge by putting in crystalizers and then the only waste is a dry powder that can be used for a concrete admixture.

If at all possible get a tour of the plant before it starts up. They generally are very impressive especially the control room. I was in a 990 MW plant in Ontario for a test once and I was surprised they didn't have Segways to travel the plant, to walk from one end to the other took 10 minutes

 

[begreen]

I toured the original Seattle steam electric plant last December. It was quite a different technology and far from clean. It's good to see progress. One thing in common, it also required a lot of walking to get around. I'd like to visit a modern plant.

 

[walhondingnashua]

It’s called the Guernsey power station (Guernsey county, Ohio). I am a science teacher at the local high school. Part of the plants tax abatement is half money for new schools so I’m sure I will get a tour of the place.

As an environmental teacher, I’m extremely happy that they have found a way to use the very abundant natural gas in our are in a positive and green way. Great thing for our community.

 

[begreen]

Thanks. It's good to see this level of increased efficiency happening.
http://guernseypowerstation.com/

 

[peakbagger]

1650 MW is large for even a combined cycle power plan.. Its going to be right up there for overall plant efficiency., GE claims over 60% but that needs to be taken with grain of salt. This is most likely well over a billion dollar project. The only thing that could improve it is if some entity could locate adjacent to it and use the low grade waste heat from it rather than put it out through the dry coolers (I call them air cooled condensers). These plants sometimes can be configured to run different ways to adjust their loads.

In europe where many areas have district heating systems, they can use the typically 100 degree heat from the steam turbine condenser for heating in the winter but not much value in the US unless someone wants to put in a big greenhouse. They do trade off some efficiency by going with dry coolers in summer but unless there is a nearby source of free water a standard wet cooling tower consumes a lot of water. If the peak loads are in the winter, a dry cooler doesnt have the efficiency loss in winter that it does in the summer.

 

[walhondingnashua]

It would be a great idea to capture that heat but where they are building it, there are not structures close. Something like a greenhouse would have to be built. From what I have researched of the companies involved, they do come from the alternative side of energy production. One of them completed one of the largest wind farms in the world in Oregon just a few years ago. This part of the country tends to not be so "excited" about the words "alternative energy" or "climate change." This project makes my job of teaching these ideas seem much more realistic and like it can actually impact the lives of my students as they grow up. To say I'm thrilled about it is an understatment.

 

[Brian26]

1650 MW is large for even a combined cycle power plan.. Its going to be right up there for overall plant efficiency., GE claims over 60% but that needs to be taken with grain of salt. This is most likely well over a billion dollar project. The only thing that could improve it is if some entity could locate adjacent to it and use the low grade waste heat from it rather than put it out through the dry coolers (I call them air cooled condensers). These plants sometimes can be configured to run different ways to adjust their loads.

In europe where many areas have district heating systems, they can use the typically 100 degree heat from the steam turbine condenser for heating in the winter but not much value in the US unless someone wants to put in a big greenhouse. They do trade off some efficiency by going with dry coolers in summer but unless there is a nearby source of free water a standard wet cooling tower consumes a lot of water. If the peak loads are in the winter, a dry cooler doesnt have the efficiency loss in winter that it does in the summer.

I lived in Burlington Vermont a long time ago and got to tour the wood fired McNeil plant. I though it was neat that they sent all the waste heat from the cooling process underground to the University of Vermont to use to heat the campus.

I also went to Iceland last year. The entire country is pretty much powered by geothermal steam. The electric plants send all the extra stream into Reykjavik for heat. Residents told me they pay around $20 a month for heat and it was basically just a maintenence charge for the pipes.

 

[peakbagger]

The greenhouses could be added after the fact but its a whole lot of low grade heat probably enough to heat 100s of acres.

Here is link to the type of greenhouse but on a much smaller scale. http://www.backyardfarms.com/how-we-grow/our-greenhouse. This one has natural gas or possibly propane generator to generate power and they also route the exhaust into the greenhouse to increase the CO 2 level.

If you want to do the math the heat rate of plant like this may be 8000 btus/KW produced. That is how many btus of natural gas is sent into the plant to get one KW out The plant is about 60% efficient so 40% of the incoming fuel is waste heat that needs to be rejected mostly from the condensers. Figure out how many BTUs and then you need to guess the temperature difference between the outdoors in the indoors of the greenhouse. I bet you are going to come up with an incredible amount of waste heat. Unfortunately this is where figures don't lie but lier's figure. Not a lot of demand for100 degree water.

 

[CaptSpiff]

When the brochure lists the 1650 Mw plant as (3) 1x1, does that mean three separate plants each with 1 prime mover and 1 heat recovery unit?
That would be monster plant complex. We have a "little sister" of that operating here on Long Island NY. "Our" Caithness plant is a 1x1 plant which can make about 350 Mw. Clean, quite, and generally a good neighbor, but it got great tax abatements (good for them) and it did little to bring down our electricity costs.

 

[peakbagger]

A 3 by 1 plant is 3 gas turbine generators and then one steam turbine generator. The gas turbine generators can start quickly and put out power in minutes. They usually can be started individually for quick power. The down side is when they run solo they put out a lot of waste heat out the exhaust so their individual electrical efficiency isnt great. If you have heard of peaker power plant its a gas turbine with no heat recovery I didnt look up the equipment but rule of thumb is 1/3 of the input energy is turned into electricity and 2/3rds is very hot exhaust. So what they do is route the hot exhaust into a heat recovery steam generator which creates steam that is then run to one steam turbine generator, that produces more electricity "for free" using the turbine exhaust. Note the power rating of the plant is usually stated at ISO conditions around 68 degrees F. Gas turbines lose output at the temperatures warm up so whne its hot in the summer the plant will lose some capacity unless they put in inlet chilling on the gas turbines. They also can put in supplemental burners in the heat recovery steam generators and add power.

 

[walhondingnashua]

The plant did get a pretty good abatement, but are still providing $43 over 30 years for new schools. I am not sure what will happen with electric costs. Mine (until I can afford the solar panels) comes from a local coop. Majority of electricity in the area comes from AEP, who is currently lobbying in Ohio to increase electric charges to customers so they can update their coal plants. If it comes to a vote, I will be a big NO. As much money as AEP and First Energy have, they should have looked ahead and made the updates. Now they want the customer to help them keep "old technology" going rather then being progressive and using new options like this new plant.

 

[peakbagger]

The cynic in me questions why they will bother upgrading the coal plant as the current EPA is in the business of removing regulations.

If they are regulated utility they are guaranteed to make a set profit on anything they spend money on. Therefore even though it doesnt make a bit of long term sense, they get paid to piss money away doing upgrades.

 

[Where2]

Majority of electricity in the area comes from AEP, who is currently lobbying in Ohio to increase electric charges to customers so they can update their coal plants. If it comes to a vote, I will be a big NO. As much money as AEP and First Energy have, they should have looked ahead and made the updates. Now they want the customer to help them keep "old technology" going rather then being progressive and using new options like this new plant.

In Florida, we simply funded the design and construction of the new/replacement power plants with surcharges to the consumers already here to subsidize the infrastructure for future people who move here, and companies who want to relocate here. I'm sure there were tax breaks too, but I stopped looking at those numbers.

While touring a local FL elementary school last week, I walked past a 36 panel PV array. I asked the principal (my tour guide) about it, she responded "I don't know anything about it. (the specs on it or anything else about it.)". She asked me how big I thought it was? Across town, the week before I asked a different elementary school principal about PV arrays I've seen on some school campuses, and he said he'd love to get one as a teaching tool for his students. To that principal, I explained that I had a PV array on my house, and it simply works, every day. To the principal who asked me how big the array on her campus was, I responded: "About double the size of the array on my house, should be good for about 12MWh per year".