Need advice/Opinions

[MIoutdoors]

Hello.
New member here looking for advice and opinions. Just bought a new (used) house on Propane and looking to supplement with a pellet stove. It appears the experts hang out on this forum so I figured I would ask a few questions and get some opinions. This is going to be a bit "long winded" so bare with me.

The house - 2000 sqft ranch with walkout basement built in 2009. Well insulated but has builder grade windows. The kitchen, foyer, living room, and mud room (garage entry) use an open floor plan. The Master/bathroom/walk in closet are all through one door next to the kitchen. Two other bedrooms and main bath are down an 8 foot hallway off the living room. Basement is a full walkout with 10 foot ceilings and has poured walls, 2 windows and a sliding entry/exit door. ***I have a desk in the basement and spend 8 hours a day working out of my home*** Basement will eventually be finished... Forced air HVAC.

Been talking to my local stove dealer about two different options. The goal is to supplement my propaane heat with a pellet burning appliance.

1) Swap out the useless propane fireplace in the living room with a floor model Harman Accentra 52i for a total cost of about 5k including install of Harman and removal of Heatilator propane insert.. This would be nice, but I have concerns about having a freezing cold basement and possibly a colder master bed/bath/walk in closet. Also concerned with how to move the air through the house and supplementing the heating with propane. My thermostat is in the living room and likely has to be moved. Sales rep said I could move some air with the furnace blower on low.. Hmmmmm...

2) He mentioned another option of installing a "Enerzone Euromax" with hot air distribution kit in the basement. He thinks this will work well keeping the entire house warm if I run one of the leads to the master bedroom floor vent and the other to the living room. This will also keep the basement warm so when it eventually gets finished, we wont need another heat source for the basement. He hasn't worked up the quote for this scenario but said it would be similar to #1 above... Around 5k with everything..

I cant find much info on the Enerzone Euromax other than what the dealer info brochure says 70,000 BTU etc.... Floor model looked nice and well built, just have no idea how this unit would rank against Harman quality. Google searches revealed that this is the same as the Drolet Eco-65 under a different name?? I know the Harman above is quality and would like something equally as nice for a basement install (Don't care about looks, but reliability, parts, support are important). Should I be looking at something else for the basement?

#2 makes sense to me as I will likely be storing pellets in the 2000 sqft basement and have 2 very small children that I worry about with a insert running 24-7 in the living room.

Thought, opinions are welcome. This is a big purchase for my family and I just want to make a good decision..

Thanks
Jeff

 

[alternativeheat]

Is that Enerzone unit a stove or a furnace, because they make both ?

 

[MIoutdoors]

Is that Enerzone unit a stove or a furnace, because they make both ?

It is a stove with the ability to be ducted like a Furnace. It uses it's own runs (2 of them - one attached to each side of the stove that get plumbed into existing floor vents in your house) yet still allows 1/3rd of the heat to be blown into the area where the stove is located through the front vent..... This is my understanding anyway.. It looks and sounds pretty slick, I am just not sure how reliable these units are. I am highly considering something in my basement over the insert in the living room. Just wanted to see what everyone has to say...

Thanks for the reply.

Here is a link.....
(broken link removed to https://www.enerzone-intl.com/en/products/pellet-stoves/euromax-pellet-heater/)

 

[jzm2cc]

There are a couple of used Harnan PF100 furnaces for sale on Michigan Craigslist, not sure where you are in state Recall one being $1000, the other $1500, they would fit the bill since they tie into existing forced air furnace. I can offer things to look out for in these units, especially damaged burnpots which are rather expensive.

Heating an unfinished basement from upstairs is tough, and heating from an unfinished basement is tough also since cement is a big heat sink.

My Aunt heats her house in Northern Mi probably 90% effective from finished basement with ducted pellet stove feeding two ducts upstairs similar to what you mentioned.

Fans can move heat around but with small children near that might be an issue.

Just a few rambling comments, and welcome to the forum from a fellow Michigander.

 

[johneh]

Remember a stove is a space heater it is not intended
to heat a whole house ( some people seem to have good luck doing it )
For your application I think I would be looking at a pellet furnace and
maybe a nice stove in the basement for the extra heat and ambiance

 

[alternativeheat]

Heating the house through existing duct work should work with the proper unit hooked in. There are a few makers of pellet furnaces out there. The concept of 30% spillage heating the bare walled basement is another matter, much of that depends on how much concrete is exposed above ground. Even so, as mentioned, concrete does tend to soak up heat and you have a large area to heat. I will say this, it would be good to keep that space heated 24/7, once you get behind the 8 ball it will be difficult to recover in really cold weather.

As far as the kids and stoves in the living area, that's a training experience. Heck we raised five kids with a wood then a coal stove on the hearth, sometimes the face above the door glowing slightly red. Grand kids have visited here with the pellet stove on the very same hearth. They're curious about it all, we just show them how it works and feel that heat up close. They tend to back away quite honestly.

 

[redbill]

Does the basement have insulation on the walls and/or ceiling?

 

[MIoutdoors]

Thanks for the replies and opinions. I appreciate it. Quote for the Euromax stove and install came in just over 6k with additional monies to run the two ducts from the stove to the floor registers.. Unfortunately that is a bit above what I want to spend at the moment. Not sure what to do. I am trying to figure out what the differences are between he Drolet Eco-65 and the Enerzone Euromax. Apparently they are made by the same company, have very similar specs, yet the Euromax is 1750.00 more. Considering northern Tool has the Drolet for $2599.00 plus shipping. Maybe I should be looking at the Drolet a bit closer or even the Enviro Maxx which is also cheaper than the Enerzone Euromax.

To answer a few questions... The walls of the basement are poured and un-insulated for the most part. The partially exposed walls on the sloping sides of the house (east and west) as well as the fully exposed back wall (south side) are insulated with foam board covered with drywall. That is all. The underground part of the basement is un-insulated.

Like I said above, I think a basement install is the way to go for me as we plan on eventually finishing the basement and I already spend 8 hours a day down there for work. With the Harman insert I mentioned above, the basement and master bed wing would be cold zones.... especially the basement. So I think I will just stick with the Propane insert for now and just never turn it on... Basement install makes more sense as I will be storing pellets down there anyway.

I have considered a full blown pellet furnace but the idea of potentially burning 13 lbs of pellets per hour scares me a bit. I am just looking for something to "supplement" the propane forced air furnace. As suggested buying a used furnace might be a great idea, but I don't want to get nickle and dimed by constantly throwing parts and labor at a unit that has been used for years with unknown maintenance and issues. I am also not sure if the local dealer would install a used unit or something that wasn't purchased through them directly. I like they idea of having a warranty and local dealer support. My local guy seems to be pretty honest, knowledgeable, and just a good guy...

Alternativeheat....I realize I may have issues keeping the unfinished basement nice and toasty, but I am perfectly fine with a cooler basement and comfortable living quarters. Once the basement is finished and properly insulated I think I may have an easier time heating it with something along the lines of what I linked to above. I think a full blown pellet furnace may be nice if I were trying to heat the entire house with pellets, but that isn't really my goal. I would like the propane furnace to kick on occasionally so I can take advantage of the whole house humidifier tied to it.


Jzm2cc... cheers to a fellow Michigander. I am down near I-69 between Port Huron and Flint. About an hour or so north of Detroit and not terribly far from my Canadian friends in Sarnia, ON.

Thanks again!
Jeff

 

[jzm2cc]

I know the area, I'm 20 min South of Flint. If you have a Farm and Home nearby, call for price on the Drolet 65 as the Fenton store had them last year. Recall them being under $2500, with the duct kit attached I'm sure you'd be happy upstairs and down. Like I mentioned, my Aunt in Northern Mi has a Pelpro hooked up in basement with 2 ducts for upstairs. Idles around 10K BTU and thermostat takes it up to about 30K Btu max with a 265 max cfm blower but it heats her manufactured ranch home quite well. Very little propane needed, just really cold spells. Drolet 65 would lay this setup to shame.

 

[redbill]

I'm no expert like many that post here, but I wouldn't put a stove in an un-insulated space. I've learned, the semi-hard-way, to solve insulation problems first (mine were at the top) before throwing more BTU's at a heating problem.

 

[Bioburner]

The fastest payback on home heating is insulation improvements.
Window film kits help with drafts and get them some insulated drapes that help for all seasons.
Probably have to move your office upstairs till the basement gets some finishing done for the winter.
Removal of the propain gas fireplace is probably a very wise move if its a older version. Some of the newer ones are getting pretty good.

 

[MIoutdoors]

Thanks guys... I understand the un-insulated basement is going to cause heat loss up front. For the time being, I can put film on the two windows and the walk out slider for the winter. Anything more than that isn't in the budget right now. Someone can tell me if I am wrong, but my thought is that a ducted unit (like the drolet Eco65, Enerzone Euromax, or Enviro Maxx) would work much better than a free standing stove in the unfinished basement. I consider the ducted units as a happy medium between a non-ducted stand alone unit and a full blown furnace.

Speaking of furnaces... Stove sales rep emailed and said he had a Caddy Alterna 2 furnace for 40% off list price in his showroom. Anyone know anything about this unit? Like I said, the goal is to supplement the propane furnace not burn 6-8 tons a pellets a winter.

Ps... Moving the office upstairs is not an option. Have two small children and other than the master bed, only 2 other bedrooms. There is no where to put the office in the upstairs living area. It must stay in the basement where it's quiet, I can talk on the phone and get work done.

 

[Bioburner]

Balancing act with $$ and work space. We have had a very cool July and August is even cooler so far. 2 days with starts of 49 degrees and no warm up in sight. Farmers now worrying about early frost and crops not maturing on time because of the cool temps.
I see everyday, propane being transported via rail and local tank farm is full but what if we have a cold fall and ugly winter and a big draw down of gas because of crop drying? Will we see propain at $3 or more again that your Wisconsin neighbors paid if they could even get it. The stash of pellets and corn was a saving factor for our household.

 

[ABusWrench]

Hello MIoutdoors. Quick explanation of my setup. 3500 sq. of solid brick ranch, on the side of a hill. Walkout basement, 16 windows 3 sliding doors, 5 man doors, one fire place and a 4 season room with 8 skylights. Harman P61 in the Uninsulated 1/2 of the basement which is my main heat. Use my Lennox heat pump, which I don't use under 40 degrees for heat, I circulate the heat/air from the Harman. Using central staircase and a couple small fans as a "cold"air return to complete the heating loops. Would luv to have a P68, but couldn't get one @ the time ( 10 degree November 3 years ago, only having the house 3 months) and learning on the fly, to not freeze! Sooooo.... I would use a Harman P68, small, compact, easy and cheap to maintain. They are a heat monster! You have propane as backup, so your only question would be how well you can circulate the heat. There, I'm done. I'll retreat for bringing "Harman" into the post!

 

[maple1]

How is the price of LP in your area? Are pellets really going to be cheaper? I thought LP prices were back down around 'sensible' levels - but really don't know. Do you know (reliably) what the LP use has been in past winters? I am kind of thinking that if you put the money you were going to spend on a pellet setup, into fully insulating the basement - you might see LP savings similar to any savings by buying pellets vs. LP. But again - don't really know.

 

[MIoutdoors]

Balancing act with $$ and work space. We have had a very cool July and August is even cooler so far. 2 days with starts of 49 degrees and no warm up in sight. Farmers now worrying about early frost and crops not maturing on time because of the cool temps.
I see everyday, propane being transported via rail and local tank farm is full but what if we have a cold fall and ugly winter and a big draw down of gas because of crop drying? Will we see propain at $3 or more again that your Wisconsin neighbors paid if they could even get it. The stash of pellets and corn was a saving factor for our household.

No.... I completely understand... Here is my honest situation. I have a 2 year old and my wife is 8.5 months pregnant with our 2nd right now. I say "2 kids", but one hasn't been born yet. Any time now!! We also just moved into this house a month ago. I have no idea how much propane I will use this winter, but will say the previous owner used 600 Gallons with a Magnum Countryside pellet stove upstairs in the living room (I removed it and will use in pole barn as it was in pretty bad shape and needs a lot of work). Propane company estimated based on their math that I will use as much as 1200 gallons a year with no supplemental heating source. My first fill (new customer discount) just took place at $.99 per gallon for 255 gallons. My next fill will be at the locked in $1.29 rate. So, that isn't terrible, but the propane market is volatile and I would rather not gamble year to year..

So, money is a huge factor. The pellet furnaces I have researched are not cheap and neither is the install. My budget is 6k max for everything. With two very small children taking up most of my time, I will not be able to throw parts and labor at a used unit unfortunately.

So tell me more about pellet furnaces. how much is a typical basement install? Can a furnace be run on different settings so it is not burning 6-8 tons a year or is it a "set it and forget it" type unit? I guess what I am asking is can my pellet furnace and Propane furnace work together to heat the house? Or am I stupid for even considering this?

Jeff

 

[MIoutdoors]

Hello MIoutdoors. Quick explanation of my setup. 3500 sq. of solid brick ranch, on the side of a hill. Walkout basement, 16 windows 3 sliding doors, 5 man doors, one fire place and a 4 season room with 8 skylights. Harman P61 in the Uninsulated 1/2 of the basement which is my main heat. Use my Lennox heat pump, which I don't use under 40 degrees for heat, I circulate the heat/air from the Harman. Using central staircase and a couple small fans as a "cold"air return to complete the heating loops. Would luv to have a P68, but couldn't get one @ the time ( 10 degree November 3 years ago, only having the house 3 months) and learning on the fly, to not freeze! Sooooo.... I would use a Harman P68, small, compact, easy and cheap to maintain. They are a heat monster! You have propane as backup, so your only question would be how well you can circulate the heat. There, I'm done. I'll retreat for bringing "Harman" into the post!

Oh man... Not sure I can take advice from a Buckeye fan LOL. Just kidding of course. I went to Michigan State so I hate UoFM equally! ha ha ha..

Dang... That is a big ranch...
You should bring up Harman... and I appreciate you adding another option to the mix (with first hand experience). However, you are complicating things on my end. I am now researching the ducted stoves, Furnaces, and will have to look at the Harman free standers.
The nice thing is I too have a central stairwell that would move heat from the basement up to the living level if the door was left open (which is not an issue). Moving heat from an un-insulated walk out basement does concern me a bit... This is why i was looking at the ducted heaters.

 

[Bioburner]

The minimum idle of the old Magnum was about 8k. I heated my home with one for a couple years. Simple enough but a pain to keep running at full efficiency without a good cleaning every week (not to home friendly with ash dust)and that took a good hour between cool down and getting to the rear exchangers. Leaf blower trick is a major benefit for its design.

Others here have experience in the larger whole home systems. I have all my bases covered with several fuel sources

You could just enclose the area of the stove and work area with the stairwell being close or central. I did that for temporary with the old Magnum and left the main basement be cool.

 

[maple1]

No.... I completely understand... Here is my honest situation. I have a 2 year old and my wife is 8.5 months pregnant with our 2nd right now. I say "2 kids", but one hasn't been born yet. Any time now!! We also just moved into this house a month ago. I have no idea how much propane I will use this winter, but will say the previous owner used 600 Gallons with a Magnum Countryside pellet stove upstairs in the living room (I removed it and will use in pole barn as it was in pretty bad shape and needs a lot of work). Propane company estimated based on their math that I will use as much as 1200 gallons a year with no supplemental heating source. My first fill (new customer discount) just took place at $.99 per gallon for 255 gallons. My next fill will be at the locked in $1.29 rate. So, that isn't terrible, but the propane market is volatile and I would rather not gamble year to year..

So, money is a huge factor. The pellet furnaces I have researched are not cheap and neither is the install. My budget is 6k max for everything. With two very small children taking up most of my time, I will not be able to throw parts and labor at a used unit unfortunately.

So tell me more about pellet furnaces. how much is a typical basement install? Can a furnace be run on different settings so it is not burning 6-8 tons a year or is it a "set it and forget it" type unit? I guess what I am asking is can my pellet furnace and Propane furnace work together to heat the house? Or am I stupid for even considering this?

Jeff

Those numbers look close to a wash to me, but also not sure what your pellet pricing is. Example, burning 3 tons/winter of pellets (that's a bit less than a bag a day) at $250/ton to save 600 gallons of LP at $1.29/gallon is close to the same cost.

 

[Bioburner]

My average cost of pellets last year was $180 with most bought on sale. Propane was 1.29

 

[redbill]

For propane at that cost (mine is usualy $2.80+ in Mass), I would let it ride through this winter, and reassess when you have a winter's worth of data. wouldn't want to rush to a mistake that could have been solved better.

 

[MIoutdoors]

Sound advice guys... Thanks.. Yeah i know propane pricing isnt bad right now. Maybe I should just wait the winter and see. Like I said I have a full tank of 255 gallons at .99 and my next fill will be at 1.29. That isn't bad. I would like to have a pellet appliance so that when propane skyrockets again (which is just a matter of time) will use the pellet burner more. If propane is cheap and pellets get high, I will use the propane. I really don't know what to do.

As soon as the new baby is 3 month old (December) i will have 2 kids in day care 3 days a week. I don't see myself having more money than I do right now for a alternate heating source. I would hate to wait until propane gets up to 3.00 a gallon again and then kick myself for not having a pellet unit installed when I had the money for it. That would suck.

 

[MIoutdoors]

Ok.. Talked to my dealer. I am not sure what to do. What I am sure of is that whatever I go with, will be installed in the basement.

Here are my options as I see them:

1) Enerzone Euromax with duct plenum kit - around 7k OTD/installed. Dealer did say the warranty is much better on the Enerzone product and it has a better control panel compared to the Drolet Eco-65. He also said that the Drolet is massed produced for the box store market where the Enerzone is not. Both made by SBI along with a very similar Osburn unit that he can also get for essentially the same OTD price..

2) Enviro Maxx with duct kit - Not available by from my dealer. He said this stove is a monster and he couldn't say anything bad about it. They used to carry the Enviro line but customer service from the manufacturer was Terrible so they dropped it. Looks like there is another local dealer that carries the Enviro line now. This is a cheaper option to the Enerzone unit above.

3) Harman p-68 in the basement with the stairwell (centrally located in the house) door open and possibly some additional ducts installed in the floor. This would be a cheaper option and would be around 5.5K OTD installed.

4) Full blown, high cost, pellet furnace.. Harman p-100, p-120 or the like (which I am told Harman no longer makes). Dealer said this would be approximately a 4k install plus the cost of the unit itself. 10 grand... yikes. He mentioned the Caddy Alentra II in his showroom for 40% off. That would be about 4k for the unit and 4k install...

If you were in my shoes, with all of the info I posted in previous posts above, what would you be looking at? Maybe none of the above. Remember, I am not necessarily looking to strictly heat my entire home with a pellet appliance. The goal is supplemental heat. If it works out that 1-3 above will keep my propane furnace off entirely, bonus, just not necessarily looking to spend 10k to do that.

Thanks again.
Jeff

 

[maple1]

I would likely not do anything this year except take some of the money budgeted for stove or furnace & insulate and air seal the basement. Any incentive programs for that in your state?

 

[Bioburner]

I am with maple1 but issue is that OP needs an office in the cold abyss that's his basement. I don't know the areas used market and how handy he is at a self install or how well he will like feeding a pellet stove. If he had used the Magnum for a period of time and not been to negatively daunted then I would recommend a pellet unit. The prices he's stating are scary and hard to see a decent payback at this time. MHO