Need help on buying insert (measurements & picture attached)

[Cinnaman]

I have a masonry fireplace that is need of some repairs, cracked flue tiles and smoke chamber reseal.
Original repair post:https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/5870/

Attached are my measurements. I'm concerned about the mantel clearance, things to ask about a proper installation, features that are a must have for an insert, etc..

Thanks,

Dave

 

[PAJerry]

Your firebox sizing is very close to what we had. The PE Vista fit just fine. We got the optional mantel shield which reduced the required distance to the mantel 'shelf' (overhang) from 29.5 to 18.5 inches so that would fall into the space you have. How much space are you planning to heat? I would suspect that south Jersey would not get too cold. The Vista has done a good job here in N.W.Pa., where it does get kind of cold.

What are the dimensions of your flue tiles and the height of your chimney? The Vista requires 6" liner, but because my flue tiles were in good shape, the installer used an 8" oval liner instead of removing the tiles. Draft has been very good but not TOO strong.

There are lots of smaller inserts out there- Buck, Jotul, and Regency were on our list. PE just seems to have a good reputation here and we've been very happy.

 

[Cinnaman]

I'm not too concerned about heating the space. My main reason for getting an insert is because I need a SS liner installed and the smoke chamber resealed. I figured if I'm going to spend all that money I should upgrade to an insert. I'm guessing the chimney height is about 20 feet.

What was the total cost of your insert installed? Anything you would do differently?

 

[Hogwildz]

I have a masonry fireplace that is need of some repairs, cracked flue tiles and smoke chamber reseal.
Original repair post:https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/5870/

Attached are my measurements. I'm concerned about the mantel clearance, things to ask about a proper installation, features that are a must have for an insert, etc..

Thanks,

Dave

To get true openining measurments. I would remove the doors & framing for them. That surround is usually a shroud and you may find a larger oepning in the actual brick that the surrouns is covering.

Mantel clearance can be helped somewhat with a mantel shield that mounts to the top of the insert, some manufacturers make different width ones for different clearances.
You might only get a medium maybe a large in there.
My Summit for instance measurements are 23-1/8" tall, no problem there. width 34-5/8", if yours is truly 34 even from inside brick to brick sides, no go. 17-3/4" deep, now if you measure back from 23-1/8" high from fireplace floor straight back to back wall of fireplace and haveover 17-3/4" deep, thats ok. your measuring from door opening top and the tall you measure from the smaller it becomes with the taper in the back wall. So looks to be your only questionable sizing is the width. Now the measurements I quoted are direct from my brochure for my Summit, and do not include the surround, which is face mounted and not as important as you can get larger ones if needed. And of course there are many other qulity manufacturers out there that may have a fit for you fireplace.

I narrowed my search down to 3 or 4 brand inserts. Went to dealers to view them all, actuallly accpet the one I bought LOL. But then narrowed them down by reviews, features I wanted/was looking for (variable speed fan, fan included? as these can cost a couple hundred themselves, outlet size, reputation etc.).

A good start is the review secction on the site here. https://www.hearth.com/ratings/search.php

Check the reviews, figure out features you want, then ask lots od questions here and narrow it down. Also keep needed clearances & measurements in mind.
Good luck.

 

[begreen]

Dave, it would help to understand what is the goal of the final install. Do you want an occasional room heater with a nice fire view. Or do you want a whole house heater that can burn 24/7? What size room is the fireplace in? Do you have an aesthetic preference for say castiron vs steel?

 

[PAJerry]

Insert unit cost $1634. Install cost $1861, with liner, clamps, cap, and labor.

Only thing I plan to change is to place a layer of 1" kaowool on the top of the unit to direct more heat into the room and less into the masonry. My chimney is 22 ft. I plan to add the kaowool when I have the chimney cleaned and inspected this spring. If all goes well, I'll clean it myself next time since the stove baffle is easily removed and the liner is a straight shot through.

 

[Cinnaman]

The goal is to have a nice, safe, fire view. Heat gain is a bonus. The room is 22'x15', 9' ceiling. I can't say if I have a preference between cast iron or steel........I've only seen pictures of inserts. I need to visit a hearth/fireplace shop.

 

[BrotherBart]

The goal is to have a nice, safe, fire view. Heat gain is a bonus. The room is 22'x15', 9' ceiling. I can't say if I have a preference between cast iron or steel........I've only seen pictures of inserts. I need to visit a hearth/fireplace shop.

The visit to the local hearth shops is the thing to do. That will let you look at the stoves/inserts and also check the space and clearance requirements. And also build a relationship with the dealer(s). There are a lot of stoves out there that will do what you want to do and do it very well. All of us here have our favorites and the best stove on earth is the one we have burning at the moment.

Pick the stove with the price, looks and dealerthat you are comfortable with. You won't go wrong. If it is a dealerthat does the installations instead of one that contracts them out, that is a bonus point too.

 

[JayY]

Travis industries (Lopi, Avalon, and Fireplace xtradinaire) sell a flush mount wood stove that I think will fit in your space. The mantel would need to be 41.5" high. It looks more like a traditional fireplace but puts out a good amount of heat. It would heat that room easily. Here is a recent thread.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/5550/

 

[wg_bent]

If fire view is your goal in that size, The Osburn 1800i is THE stove.

 

[PacificGuyInCNY]

Have to agree with Warren, you can't beat the bay window view on the Osburn. Another option might be the Hearthstone Clydesdale, 22 X 12 viewing area and soapstone heat.

 

[Rhone]

Well, as BB says the one we're burning is the best!

I have the hearthstone Clydesdale. It has a very large widescreen view of the fire, and seeing 22" logs in there burning is really something. But, it's a powerhouse being the heaviest insert (550 lbs) I know of made today, soapstone lined instead of firebrick (soapstone should last the lifetime of the unit, spreads the heat out more evenly, but expensive), with the biggest blower in an insert also at 220 cfm, and built like a steam loco, with a bit of class having one of the biggest views of the fire so you can really enjoy the fire while it does its thing. The Clydesdale heats all the air in my house to 150-175F every 50 minutes, then repeats! Although you can certainly choose the Clydesdale, I would think it overkill for just an occasional fire because you'll start out at $600+ over other inserts. That hurts to say, because I really love the Clydesdale. One would have to pry it out of my cold dead hands before I swap it for another.

So I'd go with Warren's recommendation also, bang for buck the Osburn gives you the biggest view for the least amount and visit your local store, see if there are others you may like. The Pacific Energy models are very high quality and bang for buck feature wise and quality I think they're hard to beat, but they have smaller windows than comparible models. The features I'd look for are:

1.) Don't get the Vermont Casting Winter Warm Large, Vermont castings is a good brand but their Winter Warm Large has a design flaw that makes it particularly troublesome. I don't think it will fit in your fireplace but just incase.
2.) Blowers, they're really nice to spread the heat around
3.) You must be able to clean the chimney without having to pull the insert out each time. So, that usually means one that you can remove the secondary burn baffle.

That's pretty much all I can think of. No matter what you get, you really can't go wrong today.

 

[Cinnaman]

I read one of the threads about installing a blocker plate at the damper because of the chimney fire backdrafting into the house. The stove guy I just talked to on the phone said blocker plates aren't needed if you reline the whole chimney with 6" SS. He said blockout plates are needed if you don't reline the whole chimney. Is this true, or should I not even visit his showroom. He also said they don't insulate their SS liners. I want a good price, but not by substituting safety.


Thanks for all your help.

Dave

 

[wg_bent]

Well, as BB says the one we're burning is the best!

I have the hearthstone Clydesdale. It has a very large widescreen view of the fire, and seeing 22" logs in there burning is really something. But, it's a powerhouse being the heaviest insert (550 lbs) I know of made today, soapstone lined instead of firebrick (soapstone should last the lifetime of the unit, spreads the heat out more evenly, but expensive), with the biggest blower in an insert also at 220 cfm, and built like a steam loco, with a bit of class having one of the biggest views of the fire so you can really enjoy the fire while it does its thing. The Clydesdale heats all the air in my house to 150-175F every 50 minutes, then repeats! Although you can certainly choose the Clydesdale, I would think it overkill for just an occasional fire because you'll start out at $600+ over other inserts. That hurts to say, because I really love the Clydesdale. One would have to pry it out of my cold dead hands before I swap it for another.

So I'd go with Warren's recommendation also, bang for buck the Osburn gives you the biggest view for the least amount and visit your local store, see if there are others you may like. The Pacific Energy models are very high quality and bang for buck feature wise and quality I think they're hard to beat, but they have smaller windows than comparible models. The features I'd look for are:

1.) Don't get the Vermont Casting Winter Warm Large, Vermont castings is a good brand but their Winter Warm Large has a design flaw that makes it particularly troublesome. I don't think it will fit in your fireplace but just incase.
2.) Blowers, they're really nice to spread the heat around
3.) You must be able to clean the chimney without having to pull the insert out each time. So, that usually means one that you can remove the secondary burn baffle.

That's pretty much all I can think of. No matter what you get, you really can't go wrong today.

Rhonemas...as long as your pushing on the Hearthstones... The smaller Morgan actually has pretty large glass for it's size also with a similar size to my 1800i. Anyone looking at the small Osburn really should consider the Morgan too.

I'd have to look at the dimensions, but Quadrafire now makes a bay window insert also. For occasional fires, the steel stoves are the way to go. For 24/7 burning, if I had to do it again, I might think more towards the soapstone.

 

[Rhone]

The one BIG problem with the Morgan, the "warming shelf" isn't shielded like the Clydesdale so requires 36" clearance above it, meanwhile the Clydesdale is only 24". I'm sure it's good for cooking, but 36" to combustibles above has got to be the nail that seals the coffin for many would-be Morgan purchases.

 

[MrGriz]

I have to agree that the Osburn 1800i or 2200i are beautiful for viewing the fire. Quadrafire also makes a bay window design called the Bodega Bay. I don't remember the dimensions on that one but it is close to the 2200i.

I also agree that for the occasional fire and some heat gain, steel is the way to go. Steel heats up so much faster that you will notice a difference quickly, even with a smaller or shorter duration fire.

 

[elkimmeg]

I have been following your post, in pursuit of a resolution of the chimney situation
I also picked up on what one retail establishment said about the damper block off and
the requirement of Insulation.

Pro and cons of insulation:
First of all most liner manufactures require insulation to achieve UL listing and approval.
¼” Insulation reduces clearances to combustibles to 2. ½” many liners are now rated zero clearance to combustibles. Insulation also performs another function it helps hold heat in the liner promoting better draft. Better draft enhances stove performance and efficiencies. Since insulation is needed to be UL approved then the necessity of insulation, become grounds for code compliance
The con side of it, it cost more requires more work and can make for tight maneuvering the liner in marginally passage liners.

The block off plate is needed to prevent the intrusion of room air from entering the flue chimney area. That is drawing heat out of the living space. If the liner is un-insulated it will cool that liner. Cooling the liner effects the draft and over all performance of the Stove. But it also leads to creosote buildup. I have posted enough code references to support requiring block off plates in every permit I issue.

Your situation:
Is far less than ideal. No way is your chimney NFPA 211 compliant to be used for any purpose, other than decoration. I believe there are questionable cracked liners involved. In this case ¼ better yet ½” insulation is the safety margin you need and should require.
The damper plate also solves your other problem. a I would use some of the left over liner insulation and insulate the damper plate .

As to which insert to purchase? I agree with Rhone the VC Winter warm does not receive my recommendation l elsewhere. If lucky and Lowe’s I has a Century Insert at fire sale pricing. You might find a bargain but then having to find an installer.

There are many good inserts to choose from Jotul, PE, Lopi, Osburn, and take a long look at the Englanders, a good price quality product
.

The sales rep that told you insulation and block off plate is not required. Is thinking in terms of sales. He probably peg you as looking for, the least expensive installation to enhance his chance of making a sale. I'm willing to bet, if you come armed with your situation and willing to pay a necessary fair amount to ensure your safety, he probably will change his tune and agree.. Remember you are also interviewing the person and company that will be getting your hard earned $$$ Maybe you should as again if insulation is needed. If he claims no, then ask him how one goes about obtaining listing UL . You might confront him to see how he handles thisi. Is it my understanding you are suggesting to charge me for installation , they preform one that is non compliant? Without insulation you do not have UL approval and that liner is installed non compliant. Because the manufactured stated listing requiring insulation has not been met
you should and need to have insulation and block off plate

 

[Cinnaman]

I think I'm going to have to insist on insulation based on what I have seen inside my chimney with my own eyes. The sweep showed me the first crack on Saturday. I took it upon myself to stick my head in the fireplace with a strong light and mirror on Sunday and found another larger crack in the terra cotta further up the chimney on the house side of the flue. These aren't huge cracks (maybe 1/8") but enough to scare me into fixing the problem the right way. How much extra could insulation possibly cost?

I'm also having trouble finding local insert dealers. I might have to travel 30-50 miles just to do some comparison shopping.

One other question about inserts: Where do they draw the heated air from? Hopefully it is from a sealed area around the insert and not from my old smelly firebox behind the insert.

dave

 

[BrotherBart]

Inserts draw air from the room they are in and it is heated in a convection chamber surrounding the firebox and then returned to the room.

That fireplace firebox and chimney should be cleaned thoroughly prior to installation of the insert anyway. My free standing stove sits in the fireplace with a blower on the back and picks up its air from under the stove and blows it over the top of the stove and out into the room. No smell at all because me and a wire brush spent a lot of time in that fireplace before the stove was installed. And then the fireplace firebox was completely painted with four applications of 1,200 degree stove paint to seal it. That and the damper blocking plate keep smell to zip.

 

[webbie]

I read one of the threads about installing a blocker plate at the damper because of the chimney fire backdrafting into the house. The stove guy I just talked to on the phone said blocker plates aren't needed if you reline the whole chimney with 6" SS. He said blockout plates are needed if you don't reline the whole chimney. Is this true, or should I not even visit his showroom. He also said they don't insulate their SS liners. I want a good price, but not by substituting safety.


Thanks for all your help.

Dave

We've debated this one pretty much forever, but the result is that the insert needs to be sealed well EITHER by the front panels against the fireplace or by a bottom block off plate. My old shop, which is near you in NJ (Stoveworks in Medford), always made bottom block offs since 1979 - hopefully others have caught on by now. Simply put, it is a better job. It is hard to seal face panel properly.

As far as insulation, that is another topic that has raged on many a debate. It costs $$ and often it cannot fit properly down rectangle flues. In general, the further north, the more I would suggest insulation. But if the fireplace is basically up to snuff it is probably optional. In a case where the chimney is not tile lined or the brick failing and too close to combustibles, insulation is a 100% must.

 

[seaken]

Hey, this is a public forum and everyones opinion gets to be shared. But I gotta tell ya, I hope you'll take a little more time and do some real research before you make a decision based on the opinion of people here. We mean well, but we can't see your fireplace. Please call in some real professionals and get their opinion also. If I was in your neighborhood I would qualify as a one of your local professionals. And I know that not all areas have a good set of hearth professionals. Sometimes the so-called pros just don't seem to cut it. Here's the thing - some of the advise here is not appropriate in all cases and it will take you some time to figure out what is and isn't appropriate for your particular fireplace. Take your time.

I would not automatically consider the dealer unworthy just because he has a different opinon about whether a liner needs to be insulated or where a block-off plate is fitted. There are several valid techniques that can be considered safe and will meet your local codes. Consider your options and make the choice that you prefer.

I do not agree with most of the opinions here that claim that you MUST have insulation to meet code or be UL listed. I sell a liner that does NOT require insulation to be UL listed. There are other brands also that do not require insulation in every case. Yes, insulation can be a good option and I recommend it. But it is NOT always required and there are times when it is not appropriate. Take all of this with a grain of salt and do your research.

I also have MANY satisfied clients who love their WinterWarm. So, they would pipe up and brag about how it's the one for you, just like the other opinions here shared about how thier stove is the best. And nobody has suggested a BellFire. To me, that is one of your best options. You should consider it.

http://bellfiresusa.com/

Good luck,

 

[elkimmeg]

Seaken is correct not all liners require insulation to meet UL approval . Off hand could you list one that does not?

How ever if you purchase a cheaper liner, than chances are ,that manufacturer's liner has been tested, spec, and listed with insulation required for UL approval.

To me ,1/8" cracks in clay liners, exceed being hair line and that has to be addressed. Any protection and clearance that clay had ,is now compromised.

Now re lining the chimney, the liner has to stand on its own metits. The existing chimney is no longer NFPA 211 compliant, so any exemptions excluding insulation allowed in a NFPA 211 chimney and liner is off the table.

First of all most liner manufactures require insulation to achieve UL listing and approval.

That's what I said, I did not say all. I think I gave correct code compliant advice. If need be, I can cut and past code language concerning Labeling and listings

I may have errored in my oppinion of VC winter warm inserts. That was just that, an oppinion. However while doing the Plant tour, it was pointed out ,the mold beeing made for the winter warm replacement. I agree not all winter warms have been negative experiences for their owners. But one beggs to wonder why VC is in the process of replacing them?

Nobody supports VC products as much as I do here. VC is listening and addressing the Winter warm gasketing problems, by using a simpler design .

Goose are you reading this thread please confirm our discussion with Peter MacLeary ( Engineering Manager at VC)

 

[seaken]

Seaken is correct not all liners require insulation to meet UL approval . Off hand could you list one that does not?

How ever if you purchase a cheaper liner, than chances are ,that manufacturer's liner has been tested, spec, and listed with insulation required for UL approval.

To me ,1/8" cracks in clay liners, exceed being hair line and that has to be addressed. Any protection and clearance that clay had ,is now compromised.

Now re lining the chimney, the liner has to stand on its own metits. The existing chimney is no longer NFPA 211 compliant, so any exemptions excluding insulation allowed in a NFPA 211 chimney and liner is off the table.

First of all most liner manufactures require insulation to achieve UL listing and approval.

That's what I said, I did not say all. I think I gave correct code compliant advice. If need be, I can cut and past code language concerning Labeling and listings

I may have errored in my oppinion of VC winter warm inserts. That was just that, an oppinion. However while doing the Plant tour, it was pointed out ,the mold beeing made for the winter warm replacement. I agree not all winter warms have been negative experiences for their owners. But one beggs to wonder why VC is in the process of replacing them?

Nobody supports VC products as much as I do here. VC is listening and addressing the Winter warm gasketing problems, by using a simpler design .

Goose are you reading this thread please confirm our discussion with Peter MacLeary ( Engineering Manager at VC)

Not picking on you, elk. Just adding my own opinions, since that is what this forum is. I have read many times here from many posters, not just you, that insulation is required for UL listing. I have seen many newbies assume that insulation is needed. This poster seemed to discount the local dealer because he has a differing opinion on the subject. I simply want to clarify that insulation is not always needed or practical. HomeSaver RoundFlex and Ventinox Hi-Flex come to mind. They are UL listed with or without insulation. The requirements of the chimney will determine the need for insulation.

I also dispute your comment that there are no exemptions excluding insulation under NFPA 211. A cracked liner is not the determining factor for insulation in this case. The crack can be addressed with an uninsulated liner. The requirements for insulation relate to clearances to combustibles - not cracks. If the chimney passed NFPA 211 in all other areas the insulation is optional.

Also, I do not dispute that there have been problems with the gasketing on the WinterWarm. I was only sharing that, just like with other stove owners, I can report many WW owners who would brag that their stove is the best. VC is replacing them for the same reason they replaced the Defiant and the Encore, and any other older model. For the same reason we see new model cars from Chevy every year. There's always room for improvement and good companies are constantly trying to improve their products.

 

[webbie]

I do not agree with most of the opinions here that claim that you MUST have insulation to meet code or be UL listed. I sell a liner that does NOT require insulation to be UL listed. There are other brands also that do not require insulation in every case. Yes, insulation can be a good option and I recommend it. But it is NOT always required and there are times when it is not appropriate. Take all of this with a grain of salt and do your research.

I also have MANY satisfied clients who love their WinterWarm. So, they would pipe up and brag about how it's the one for you, just like the other opinions here shared about how thier stove is the best. And nobody has suggested a BellFire. To me, that is one of your best options. You should consider it.

http://bellfiresusa.com/

Good luck,

I agree with the basics of Seans post, but to be very clear about one liner vs. another.....there is no way on the lords green earth that ANY single wall liner without insulation can pass to be the equiv of an insulated liner - in fact, I would argue that there is virtually no difference between the heat conducting properties of any brand vs. another. Stainless steel transfers heat big time - we don't need a physics degree to see that. So any brand that claims to meet the same standards as insulated - well I would like to know the brand and would challenge that! It is probably a mistake or a mis-wording. At the same time, most ALL liners meet UL specs when installed in a chimney that was safe to begin with.

So, if this is true, when is insulation needed? IMHO, there are two factors:
1. Safety
2. Performance

Dispensing with #2, I would say that exterior chimneys in the most northern parts of the country are good candidates for insulated liners.....

#1 becomes the problem of interpretation and "in the field". First, consider that virtually any lined chimney is vastly safer than an unlined one. You have installed a complete and smoke tight flue passage inside the existing one. The heat transfer from a round flue liner to a specific area of a flue lined chimney and then through the liner and the brick or block is VERY diluted by the time it gets to the house framing members. And those framing members are the reason for the standards.

IMHO, small cracks in the flue liner have little or nothing to do with heat transfer from a ss liner to the framing members - in other words, heat does not find it's way through 1/16" cracks and then radiate onto framing members - rather it heats the entire masonry in an area of hundreds of sq inches and slowly "wicks" through.

Of course, there is a lot more to say on the subject, but the short and sweet is that if a chimney if built correctly, then insulation is not usually required. If it is built incorrectly, then insulation is probably needed to bring it up to modern high temp standards. Safety is always a matter of degree. It is, as I mentioned once earlier, sometimes the difference between a 1 in 40,000 chance your house will ignite and a 1 in 10,000, both being low odds but one safer than the other.

Most of us drive on tires and in cars that are not the #1 safest on the road. By doing that, we slightly increase our risk.

 

[PAJerry]

Our insert draws air from the basement or can be set up to use outside air or room air. Don't know about other brands. We have found that by using combustion air from the basement, through a screen placed in the ash pit door, our room air is not very dry. Static electricity has not been a problem.