Need honest opinions on this load

[crater22]

This will be my first attempt at getting a hotter, longer burn. Honestly, I have been skeptical of loading this much at one time. I have been usually loading about 4 splits and the cat temp gets up to 1500 and the IR reads 400. I try to increase the insert heat but the cat keeps climbing. I usually get no secondaries during this type of burn. Therefore, I have never tried for a overnight fire. I usually run it during the day since I am retired and can keep an eye on it, let it die out around 8 and start getting ready for bed. The biggest problem is that the thermostat for the heat pump is in the same room as the insert, which means the HP usually never kicks on, and it gets cold in the back bed rooms.

Would appreciate you pointing out what I am doing wrong. The wood is very dry, and a mixture of hard and soft wood, as you can see.

Many thanks in advance....

 

[Woody Stover]

Maybe I need to get my eyes checked...

 

[begreen]

Move the thermostat?

 

[Woody Stover]

When it's at 400/1500, how much air are you giving it? How tall is your stack, again? I usually cruise with left slider closed, right open around 1/4". It burns 12 hrs like that, at the end, meters are maybe 250/600 and it's still heating, but not as strong as at the beginning, obviously.

 

[Woody Stover]

Those settings are with the stove on a 20' stack. Even though the stove is packed full, it burns the load from the center out toward the sides, so it's the same type of burn as putting 4 splits in the middle, the burn just lasts longer.

 

[Woody Stover]

It's usually pretty easy for me to get some lazy flame in the top of the box at the beginning of the load. I don't get to watch the entire burn, so not sure how long the flame may last. When you have flame in the box, and that will eat some of the smoke, so the cat temp should stay down a bit. Stove will push 500 then....where I measure it, on the front next to the bypass rod. If you've got a blaze in there, yeah, the cat is gonna get hot. Is 400/1500 heating your entire house? If not, I'll have to dig back in the posts and see what area you're trying to heat, how the insulation and air sealing is, etc. I gotta go to my SIL's in a minute, though. I've got her stove out on the porch, sealing seams and putting in fresh gaskets. Thread jack....the hack sweep that put her last combustor in installed it without the interam gasket. I wondered why I got like 2.5 gallons of creo outta the stack a few days ago, when it's only been a few months of burning. Burning up all my hard work getting the wood for her, and not getting the heat from it, just gunking the chimney. Sheesh.

 

[Jacyte]

I usually get 400/1500 temps when I use small splits and let them all get fully engulfed before shutting it down. once the cat takes off that's pretty much it. The fire box will never keep climbing and the cats produce all the heat. The air from the blower either way is scalding hot and will usually heat the same. Once the cats outrun the firebox temps everything holds stable until the ash bed stops giving off enough fuel to feed the cats.
I have even had the cats at 800 after letting the coals burn down overnight and the stove so cool the fan shuts off (under 120ºF) It was still giving off good heat but obviously without the fan on it was wasted in an insert.

 

[crater22]

Move the thermostat?

Those were there only when I first started using the insert.
realized after reading here, they were not very reliable. I keep them there just to cover up the scratch marks left by trying to remove them when they were hot to handle. Been using a I.R. therm for the last couple of weeks. Will get around to taking them off when I get some high temp paint. I know they look stupid, especially having two of them....

 

[crater22]

It's usually pretty easy for me to get some lazy flame in the top of the box at the beginning of the load. I don't get to watch the entire burn, so not sure how long the flame may last. When you have flame in the box, and that will eat some of the smoke, so the cat temp should stay down a bit. Stove will push 500 then....where I measure it, on the front next to the bypass rod. If you've got a blaze in there, yeah, the cat is gonna get hot. Is 400/1500 heating your entire house? If not, I'll have to dig back in the posts and see what area you're trying to heat, how the insulation and air sealing is, etc. I gotta go to my SIL's in a minute, though. I've got her stove out on the porch, sealing seams and putting in fresh gaskets. Thread jack....the hack sweep that put her last combustor in installed it without the interam gasket. I wondered why I got like 2.5 gallons of creo outta the stack a few days ago, when it's only been a few months of burning. Burning up all my hard work getting the wood for her, and not getting the heat from it, just gunking the chimney. Sheesh.

Woody, thanks so much for your reply. You have a way of explaining things that even a total idiot like me, can kind of understand. So if I am understanding you correctly, it is o.k., once the cat reaches a good temp, that the flame goes out and the hot glowing splits continue to glow, to use that for heat. I was always thinking that I need some kind of flame. I spoke with Buck a couple of days ago and they said that burning as high as 1800 for a short period of time would not be a concern. As far as insert temp, they had no recommendation as to the max temp, as long as the stove was not glowing. I was concerned about a chimney fire, but he said with this stove and the S.S. liner it would not be a problem. The only problem with running the cat at 1800 for a while would be that I would ruin the cat......

That kind of made me feel better, but the lack of secondaries had me confused.

Thanks so much for you reply's, and to everybody else for helping me out.

 

[Woody Stover]

total idiot

I look at it this way; At least we're smart enough to realize we're morons. Many don't. Thanks for the kind words. I guess once in a while I make sense. Sometimes I look at what I've written and say to myself "That's not very concise, it's a rambling wreck."

it is o.k., once the cat reaches a good temp, that the flame goes out and the hot glowing splits continue to glow, to use that for heat. I was always thinking that I need some kind of flame....the lack of secondaries had me confused.

Right. Secondary burn in a tube stove is accomplished by supplying heated combustion air through the tubes at the top of the fire box and burning the smoke there. Our main "secondary burn" is the cat burning the smoke. And as a bonus, sometimes the logs won't be flaming but the smoke from them will ignite underneath the cat shield where it is hot and there's oxygen available from the air wash. That's essentially the same as what happens in a tube stove. So we've got a "triple burn"...log flame, cat glow, and floater "secondary" flame.

I was concerned about a chimney fire, but he said with this stove and the S.S. liner it would not be a problem.

Well, you could have a chimney fire in the liner but normally with hot start-up fires and the cat eating the smoke when you've got the air cut to cruise, the chimney won't quickly accumulate creosote. Now, if the cat crashes (falls below the temp necessary to maintain combustion within the cat,) then deposits will occur at a faster rate. At any rate, everyone's setup is different and it's wise to check your flue every few weeks with a new stove, until you have an idea how fast creosote is going to accumulate. A number of factors contribute to how much creosote your flue will accumulate; How dry your wood is, how fast gasses cool in your stack, etc.

The only problem with running the cat at 1800 for a while would be that I would ruin the cat

Yes, wash coat containing the catalyst metals can separate from the substrate (ceramic or steel.) I feel that the lower I can run the cat while still keeping it active, while still providing the necessary heat, the better. I like to see it at 1300-1500, I figure it's not working as hard then. Of course, the cat can be burning smoke, but not glowing. When I loaded tonight, I saw the tin foil marker on the cat had moved up to 1800. I don't know how long it was that hot, since I wasn't there. I know I could learn a lot if I were able to be there to observe complete burn cycles. I reset the tin foil to 1500 on every load, and have not seen it pushed up to 1800 for quite a while. I think I had more Cherry and Red Elm in that load, and it may have gassed off a little faster, resulting in the cat getting hot. The more dense woods like Oak and Hickory seem to gas is a slower, more controlled fashion.
But back to the full loads, load 'er full during the day for a while, when you can watch the entire burn. Once you feel comfortable that you pretty much know what's gonna happen, then you'll feel OK loading it up for overnight burns. There are a lot of factors determining how a load will burn; Split size, type of wood, colder weather (creates more draft) and so on. With experience you'll be able to factor in the variables and predict (usually) how a given load will burn.

 

[Woody Stover]

Here's the evening load from a couple nights ago. I didn't think of taking pics until I got over there, so all I had was the phone. Probe was down about 500. I didn't want to load on the fly and burn up too much of the load getting to 700, where I usually close the bypass, so I pulled the coals forward and tossed in a couple small splits to heat up the stove. Staged load has 2 Cherry and 2 Red Elm on top, which I stacked against the left and right walls to hopefully speed up the burn at the end, keep stove temp up, and not leave a lot of coals. The rest of the load was some White Ash and White Oak and that filled up the center. I didn't load full...don't want much left when I come back in 12 hrs. A full load of Oak could go 16 hrs, I'm pretty sure, and if I were there to open the air a little at the end, stove would probably still be hot enough to load on the fly. I try to leave some space between splits in the center so that flame can get to the top of the fire box and heat up the stove faster. The last pic is after the bypass is closed, stove is about 400, probe about 1200, and a little flame is popping up once in a while on top of the center split.

 

[crater22]

Here's the evening load from a couple nights ago. I didn't think of taking pics until I got over there, so all I had was the phone. Probe was down about 500. I didn't want to load on the fly and burn up too much of the load getting to 700, where I usually close the bypass, so I pulled the coals forward and tossed in a couple small splits to heat up the stove. Staged load has 2 Cherry and 2 Red Elm on top, which I stacked against the left and right walls to hopefully speed up the burn at the end, keep stove temp up, and not leave a lot of coals. The rest of the load was some White Ash and White Oak and that filled up the center. I didn't load full...don't want much left when I come back in 12 hrs. A full load of Oak could go 16 hrs, I'm pretty sure, and if I were there to open the air a little at the end, stove would probably still be hot enough to load on the fly. I try to leave some space between splits in the center so that flame can get to the top of the fire box and heat up the stove faster. The last pic is after the bypass is closed, stove is about 400, probe about 1200, and a little flame is popping up once in a while on top of the center split.
View attachment 151445 View attachment 151446 View attachment 151447 View attachment 151448

You are a good man Woody. I have been following your advice and I think? that I am getting the hang of some of it. The load I burned in the pic last for 6 hours, my longest ever. What I am having problems with, well confused about, is the reloading process. Seems some people can throw a couple pc's on and leave. I still need to sit by and adjust the air flow until I get things about right. Learning my wood I think, would be the biggest help to me right now. Some of what I have burns fast and hot, some burns medium. I guess it is true, it is a learning process, but hey, at 68 I still can learn some things, and this is getting to be a good hobby. I just had a load of elm and maple delivered, which was laying for two years and just cut and split yesterday Thanks again

 

[Grisu]

I just had a load of elm and maple delivered, which was laying for two years and just cut and split yesterday

Was that the delivery for the winter 16/17? It won't burn this winter and probably will still be a PITA the next one.

 

[crater22]

Was that the delivery for the winter 16/17? It won't burn this winter and probably will still be a PITA the next one.

Trying to get a jump on the next year or two. It was wood that was in log form stored inside a barn, open air, just not cut and split. . Right now I had it dumped into one of the garages to keep it dry, until I can move it into a shed. Thanks for the pointers ..Never rained or snowed on. I plan on building a shed this spring and using it to help season it. After that, I have two, 2-2 1/2 plus garages that I can keep it in.

 

[Grisu]

Storing them in log form, even under cover, will do little in getting them dry. The ends may be somewhat semi-dry but the stuff from the center will be as wet as when the tree was felled. I am pretty certain that the bark acts as a vapor barrier trapping all the moisture inside. When you get a moisture meter you can check whether they have been drying or not.

I am now splitting even glorified branches with a diameter of just 2" after having quite a few of them sizzling at me although having been in the stack for 2 years.

 

[Woody Stover]

You are a good man Woody.

Thanks for the kind words. Sounds like you are starting to get the results you want. Just trying to help out, like everyone did me when I first came here. I was trying to burn dead Red Oak, but it had only been split for 6 months, max. I thought "Heck, the tree was dead so it must be ready to burn." These guys clued me in that Oak takes more time to dry than just about any other wood, and now I have that Red Oak split and stacked for 3 years before I have to burn it. In your case, I would stack next year's wood single-row, out in the wind, top-covered, and don't split it too big. Maple (especially soft Maple) and Elm should be at least decent in the fall. Of course, those smaller splits will burn and gas off a bit faster and you'll have to factor that in when starting your loads and setting the air. Most folks dry their wood out in the wind, then when it's ready to burn, stock their shed for the following season. Makes sense, since the air movement through tightly-packed wood in the shed is not as good. Now if you can let that freshly-split wood sit in the shed for several years, that's a different story. I'm no spring chicken either, but I'm learning more every day about this art of burning wood.

the reloading process. Seems some people can throw a couple pc's on and leave. I still need to sit by and adjust the air flow until I get things about right.

That's the way to do it; Take it slow, observe what happens when you try different things, and you can hone your technique. Keep in mind that everyone is running different stoves, so some of their techniques may not apply to all burners. As a general rule, I like to load pretty full and let 'er run, maybe adjust the air a couple times later in the burn, and time it out to where I'm ready to load for overnight when the time is right. To me, that's less work than loading a few splits at a time, burning them in, and re-establishing your cruise settings many times throughout the day. Every time you break that burn to add wood, you are losing efficiency and flushing heat up the flue, especially with a cat stove.
I know what you mean about the hobby aspect of burning wood; I've really grown to enjoy thinking and learning about it, and finding better, more efficient ways to do it.

 

[crater22]

Yeah Woody, the cat actually got to 1800 and climbing. I did not scream like a little girl........Shut it down a little and it maintained around 1200 and I felt proud of myself.....LOL

 

[Woody Stover]

cat actually got to 1800 and climbing........Shut it down a little and it maintained around 1200

When the cat goes high, a lot of wood is gassing. If you can bring it back down right away by cutting the air, that's good control. Did it take a while to start coming down from 1800? Did you have a lot of small splits loaded, or what do you think was creating that much smoke? Could be that you had the air open a bit too much for too long. Or your draft was a little stronger since the weather has cooled off...
Oh, I forgot to say in my last post, sometimes the timing on a full load doesn't work out, and you have to toss in just a couple of splits. Just be sure to burn 'em in a bit to remove surface moisture and get them gassing. If you throw a rained-on piece on a hot coal be and close the bypass right away without burning it a little first, you can damage the combustor (thermal shock, in this case.) I think they talk about flame impingement on the cat, in the manual. I read the manual several times....good stuff in there.