Need Horizontal Install Advice

[HeadhunterTom]

After many moons of research, I ended up buying the Rika Integra II to replace the old Austroflamm Integra I.. Since they did not appear to change the front of the stove, I stupidly assumed their engineers did not change the back – ELWRONGAMUNDO! They raised the combustion motor exhaust flue 2”. When I pulled out the inside of the Pellet-Pro wall thimble, I noted that it was up against the lowest fixed window mullion in the picture and cannot go up any further in the current configuration. On horizontal exhaust venting, I already know it is not recommended to drop down before going through the wall as doing so could cause smoke drafting problems since heat rises.

The Contractor who built the room and created the wall thimble "wall" suggested that I replace the fixed awning window in the lowest opening, remove the fixed window 2nd from the bottom, recreate the wall thimble "wall" and go out that way.
MY QUESTION: If I follow his advice, I would have to hook up a combination of two 45 or 90 degree elbows to be able to get up to where the wall thimble will be at the lower side of the 2nd window from the bottom in the attached picture. Are those two turns going to be a problem where the horizontal pipe is only 18" including the temination cap?

 

[Pelleting In NJ]

Since pellet stoves are power-vented appliances, they really don't care if you have to go down a bit to go into the thimble. Your runs are short, even with a few elbows, the exhaust blower should be able to create enough airflow. Also, considering that your Rika uses an airflow sensor to regulate the combustion blower speed, it will compensate for whatever restriction you have in the flue piping, up to a point of-course. You could also consider putting the stove on a raised hearth platform, so the exhaust port lines up with height of the thimble.

In any case, you should consider a backup ups like a Cyberpower 850PFCLCD to keep your exhaust blower running for long enough to burn off the remaining pellets in the burn pot, to prevent any smoke backup into your home during a power failure. Of course you need to turn the stove off, but you can hookup a relay to interrupt the auger feed motor so that the stove shuts down automatically if the power fails.

 

[Lousyweather]

Since pellet stoves are power-vented appliances, they really don't care if you have to go down a bit to go into the thimble. Your runs are short, even with a few elbows, the exhaust blower should be able to create enough airflow. Also, considering that your Rika uses an airflow sensor to regulate the combustion blower speed, it will compensate for whatever restriction you have in the flue piping, up to a point of-course. You could also consider putting the stove on a raised hearth platform, so the exhaust port lines up with height of the thimble.

In any case, you should consider a backup ups like a Cyberpower 850PFCLCD to keep your exhaust blower running for long enough to burn off the remaining pellets in the burn pot, to prevent any smoke backup into your home during a power failure. Of course you need to turn the stove off, but you can hookup a relay to interrupt the auger feed motor so that the stove shuts down automatically if the power fails.

well, I would suggest you follow the owner's manual, but in lieu of that, NEVER, EVER, go down with the pipe....even a little.....

 

[DexterDay]

I would Always suggest you vent horizontal (w/ 1/4" rise per foot) or at least vertical... Always.

With that said. My Local dealer has a Fahrenheit Endurnace Furnace that comes straight out 1', has a 90* pointed DOWN, another 90 To make to shoot horizontal 1', and than another 90* out the building 3'. And it's 3" not the recommended 4" so he has an EVL of 20' and its directed down.. And 3" Not saying its recommended. But we hooked an Anonometer (spelling) to his intake and mine.... I was Shocked. Add to the fact he never cleans his.

 

[Lousyweather]

I would Always suggest you vent horizontal (w/ 1/4" rise per foot) or at least vertical... Always.

With that said. My Local dealer has a Fahrenheit Endurnace Furnace that comes straight out 1', has a 90* pointed DOWN, another 90 To make to shoot horizontal 1', and than another 90* out the building 3'. And it's 3" not the recommended 4" so he has an EVL of 20' and its directed down.. And 3" Not saying its recommended. But we hooked an Anonometer (spelling) to his intake and mine.... I was Shocked. Add to the fact he never cleans his.

well, folks who read this......dont do this, ok?

 

[smwilliamson]

How about just going up through the roof? Not sure what is above you but that would solve yer problem.

Also, you could make a new thimble (trim the top) so long as your vent through the wall maintains 1" clearance to combustibles, the venting would not be UL anymore but maintaining clearances would still be in line with NFPA 211.

Dont be so creative and vent any portion down. That is not a good idea and possibly even worse with a Rika since it relies heavily on relationships between the digital air flow sensor and the hall sensors within the combustion motor.

ALSO, check the owners manual, I believe Rika calls for 4" venting on all product these days even though they give you a 3" take off. EDIT: 3" is ok with the Integra

From the manual:

The total length of horizontal vent must not exceed
five feet. The “PL” vent exhaust system must be
installed and sealed with three screws per joint.
The chimney manufacturer’s installation
procedures must be followed. In addition, pipe
connections, joints, and all pipe seams within the
home should be sealed with high-temperature
silicone sealer, and (RTV) aluminum tape.

 

[doublewide]

You can cut 2" off the top of the square part of the thimble. Butt the top edge of the black flashing up to the bottom of your window molding. Or, rip the bottom of the molding down, so it will fit.

 

[DexterDay]

well, folks who read this......dont do this, ok?

I agree. I would Never do this..... This is not recommended, nor accepted.

Just sharing what I seen. May try and sneak a Pic next time I am there.

I would Always suggest you vent horizontal (w/ 1/4" rise per foot) or at least Level...... Always......(

 

[HeadhunterTom]

OK! So the consensus is: "Down is out".

I sort of like the: "Build a platform so the flue will be level with the thimble on the next window up idea".- lot of work tiling the platform on top and three sides to match the floor tile not to mention the removal and reinstall of two fixed windows.

Straight up through the roof is out - did that when the first Integra was new back in 1996-Ugly finished look and it leaked. These babies look like a piece of furniture when not is use as long as you can't see any stainless or black piping.

Cutting the thimble wall to move it up is out - I would never gamble putting the pellet pipe that close to combustibles. Cutting the mullions is also out. What you see in the attached picture above is an Andersen Window Wall, factory made of of two opening Awning Windows on top and two fixed windows on the bottom mulled together and delivered that way. Cutting both mullions would destroy the entire unit integrity.

That brings me back to my original question: Can I use a combination of 45s and/or 90s elbows to go up before going out on the horizontal run?

Although I have not seen that configuration on any RIKA stove install manuals, I did see a configuration where there was a straight out from the flue pipe to a clean-out Tee, up 6 inches to another clean-out Tee and then straight through the thimble with a termination cap that seemed to only extend 6-12" from the side of the building.

 

[Pelleting In NJ]

Everyone says that a down section in flue is a no-no...even on a powered exhaust appliance like a pellet stove, but nobody has stated a reason backing up that opinion. The amount of anti-natural-draft of a short down section of pipe is totally overcome by the pressure of an exhaust blower. I maintain that if you have a backup ups to power the stove long enough to shut it down during a power failure, a down section is fine.

 

[HeadhunterTom]

Everyone says that a down section in flue is a no-no...even on a powered exhaust appliance like a pellet stove, but nobody has stated a reason backing up that opinion. The amount of anti-natural-draft of a short down section of pipe is totally overcome by the pressure of an exhaust blower. I maintain that if you have a backup ups to power the stove long enough to shut it down during a power failure, a down section is fine.

Well my New Jersey friend, I will be testing your opinion since it will not cost me any more than the time to tilt the elbows downward to the existing thimble as opposed to upward to a reinstalled thimble. The combustion motor is a 200 CFM blower that runs 12 minutes after shutdown so in theory, your suggestion should work in terms of exhausting all fumes before the pot cools.I will try your way and let you know if it flys long term. There are two Carbon Monoxide detectors in the room so it will be a risk-free experiment.

 

[doublewide]

OK! So the consensus is: "Down is out".

I sort of like the: "Build a platform so the flue will be level with the thimble on the next window up idea".- lot of work tiling the platform on top and three sides to match the floor tile not to mention the removal and reinstall of two fixed windows.

Straight up through the roof is out - did that when the first Integra was new back in 1996-Ugly finished look and it leaked. These babies look like a piece of furniture when not is use as long as you can't see any stainless or black piping.

Cutting the thimble wall to move it up is out - I would never gamble putting the pellet pipe that close to combustibles. Cutting the mullions is also out. What you see in the attached picture above is an Andersen Window Wall, factory made of of two opening Awning Windows on top and two fixed windows on the bottom mulled together and delivered that way. Cutting both mullions would destroy the entire unit integrity.

That brings me back to my original question: Can I use a combination of 45s and/or 90s elbows to go up before going out on the horizontal run?

Although I have not seen that configuration on any RIKA stove install manuals, I did see a configuration where there was a straight out from the flue pipe to a clean-out Tee, up 6 inches to another clean-out Tee and then straight through the thimble with a termination cap that seemed to only extend 6-12" from the side of the building.

I just want to make sure you understand what I was saying about cutting the thimble. The thimble has a 3" hole that the vent pipe travels through, then it has a 7" circular safety shield that protects the exhaust vent pipe from overheating combustibles, finally the thimble has a 12 inch decorative square piece of sheet metal that you see from in the room. I am suggesting not cutting the 7" circular safety part, but cutting 2" from the top of the square decorative flashing.

 

[DexterDay]

I just want to make sure you understand what I was saying about cutting the thimble. The thimble has a 3" hole that the vent pipe travels through, then it has a 7" circular safety shield that protects the exhaust vent pipe from overheating combustibles, finally the thimble has a 12 inch decorative square piece of sheet metal that you see from in the room. I am suggesting not cutting the 7" circular safety part, but cutting 2" from the top of the square decorative flashing.

What Doublewide is suggesting, will not reduce Clearance to Combustibles. It will just not be a Square thimble.

Much better than Tilting the vent down.

As for your blower. The Room air (convection) blower is prob 200 CFM. Almost ALL pellet stoves have an 80 CFM Combustion blower.

 

[HeadhunterTom]

I just want to make sure you understand what I was saying about cutting the thimble. The thimble has a 3" hole that the vent pipe travels through, then it has a 7" circular safety shield that protects the exhaust vent pipe from overheating combustibles, finally the thimble has a 12 inch decorative square piece of sheet metal that you see from in the room. I am suggesting not cutting the 7" circular safety part, but cutting 2" from the top of the square decorative flashing.

AHHA I wish it was that easy. It is the 7" safety shield that is up against the window mullion.

 

[HeadhunterTom]

What Doublewide is suggesting, will not reduce Clearance to Combustibles. It will just not be a Square thimble.

Much better than Tilting the vent down.

As for your blower. The Room air (convection) blower is prob 200 CFM. Almost ALL pellet stoves have an 80 CFM Combustion blower.

You are probably right about the combustion blower. I googled and took the info off the header without opening it. The Convection Blower puts out 210 CFM, I could not find any tech specs on the Combustion Blower.

 

[DexterDay]

You are probably right about the combustion blower. I googled and took the info off the header without opening it. The Convection Blower puts out 210 CFM, I could not find any tech specs on the Combustion Blower.

A 200 CFM Combustion blower would make that thing a Mini Forge! (Pretty close to one already Those Integra's are Awesome units. I wouldn't mind finding a nice used one locally)

 

[HeadhunterTom]

Link Removed

A 200 CFM Combustion blower would make that thing a Mini Forge! (Pretty close to one already Those Integra's are Awesome units. I wouldn't mind finding a nice used one locally)

Finally got A.) Back from warm outside places down Caribbean way and,
B.) warm enough to do outside work on relocating Thimble wall.
Stove went operational yesterday running 6 hours on 50%with all opposite wall windows and deck Slider open to accommodate burn in time. Stove finally hit the high limit switch and shut itself down (outside temps were in the low 70ies) OAK is the way to go. Stove is super-efficient. Ran yesterday at 50% for 6 hours and only used a half bag. OAK really improves performance. Started stove today@ 1500 hours running at 20 and room is 75 degrees with one Awning wind open and outside temp of 45 degrees. 60 minute cleaning cycle is awesome and the shutdown process cranks it up high enough that there is nothing left in the burn pot when it completes the shutdown cycle
. Link Removed

Horizontal install includes the adaptor connected to a clean out tee connected to a 45 degree pipe connected to a 12 inch straight pipe connected to an end cap with venturi effect. Outside termination extends 9.5 inches beyond the newly installed Thimble wall. Top of pipe is 15 inches below opening awning window above. Re-installed Andersen Sash below pipe is a fixed window with a substantial company installed seal

Methinks I am ready for another 16 years of trouble free pelleting

 

[gfreek]

Wow that is really nice...