Need Massachusetts Soapstone dealer

[Vic99]

I live in the Lowell area of Massachusetts

So I was going to buy a hearthstone homestead from a stove and insert store in NH. I made numerous trips to them, made phone calls, etc. and even put a downpayment on the stove. Now, a couple days later, when asking about a permit, my townhall told me that if the installer does not pull the installation permit, the NH store can still install, but it is on me if anything goes wrong later on down the line.

Apparently this store is licensed to install, but my state is a pain in the neck when it comes to everything that is needed for a permit.

The nh store said they will not pull a permit. We are going to have a conversation tomorrow (I hope), but in the meantime, can anyone recommend a good insert/stove store in Massachusetts. . . . or they can even be a nh store but licensed to install AND pull permits.

Perhaps I am a knucklehead for not checking out the permit process first, but I assumed that if this store had any issues with Mass ahead of time, they would not have invested 3 hours over several days with me. I was upfront about my state.

Thanks.

 

[rudysmallfry]

In CT, you have to go to the town hall in person to pull the permit. In my case, it involved about a 3 hour wait, and I was there early. My dealer wasn't about to waste that much time, so I pulled the permit myself. I don't remember exactly how it worked, but I either had to specify that another person was doing the installation, or I was doing it myself. In the eyes of my insurance agent, once the inspector signed off on the install, I'd be covered even if Mickey Mouse had installed it. Maybe in Mass you can pull it under the self installation category to get around it like I did.

 

[elkimmeg]

As the person presenting the seminar to all building inspectors in Ma, Let me paint the qualifications. The second anual Building Inspector's convention at Bridgewater State in March, I covered this issue. All installers are required to be licenced Ma, construction supervisors. However if the homeowner pulls the permit, they now act as the construction supervisor and can now hire who ever they choose. They now give up the rights and protection of greviances should the install not comply to code. If the installation complys to manufactures specs and code and passes inspection its a done deal. This situation happens all the time. You have to read the installation manual and follow its specs. iI an insert, you will be dealing with the revised 2003 NFPA 211 cross-sectional code. If your fire place flue is located exposed to the esposed to the exterior wall the installation will require a full insulated liner If an interior location I will need your f clay flue size to advise what is code compliant

Really i need flue size verticle lenght and a description of your preposed setup to tell you code compliance distance to combustiables distances in front of looding door heath requrements ect

 

[Gooserider]

Don't know details of what they'd do for installs etc. but there is a heath shop in Chelmsford, in the strip mall across from the big Stop & Shop in Chelmsford Center near the intersection of 129, 4 and 110. (Sorry I forget the name of the shop and don't have better directions, but I just go there....)

I haven't done an awful lot of business there, but they seem reasonably competent and decent folks. I think I've seen some soapstone stoves in the shop as well.

Gooserider

 

[babalu87]

Step one
Go to town hall, tell them you need a permit to install a solid fuel heating device

Step two
Get installers information, put it in the spot provided on the permit application

Step three
Get woodpile in order and await final inspection from town

 

[Vic99]

Ok, I am starting to see how this works.

Elk, the plan is to get a hearthstone homestead soapstone stove and vent it out of my chimney. My chimney is located in the center of my 1920 dutch gambrel. The plan is to put a full liner in and cap the chimney. In the basement I also have a gas furnance and gas water heater that vent out of this chimney . . . . I assume that they will still be able to do that when a liner and cap are placed in the chimney. Am I right? (I plan to burn wood 24/7, but use the natural gas as a backup/supplement when needed and to continue to use the gas to heat my water.)

The homestead will be backed up to the fireplace opening and will cover the current fireplace opening with a heat shield. A hearth pad will extend my brick hearth floor.

So are you saying that when the stove installation passes inspection because it was installed properly, my insurance company will be satisfied and God forbid there is a house fire from normal operation, etc. I should be covered?

The flue vent is 6 X 21 inches. I am not sure what the width of the actual chimney interior is. In the attic I can see that the chimney is covered on the outside with clay. In the basement it is not.

The fireplace is centrally located on the first floor of a 2 story house. With ~8 ft ceiling heights, ~1 ft for each floor, and another 7-8 feet in the attic where the chimney passes through plus 4-5 ft out of the roof, I'd estimate the chimney length to be 30 feet from the fireplace to the top . . . . the chimney foundation sits in the basement at around 8 ft as well.

If I remember correctly, I was told that we need 16 inches in front of the stove door , thus we are going with ~42 inch pad that the stove will sit on.

I will suss out that store in chelmsford. I found another in littleton that I will also call . . . . that said, you guys reassured me when you imply that the homeowner pulling the permit is not all that uncommon . . . . looks like I need to call my insurance co to make sure though.

Thanks.

 

[Todd]

Are you saying the wood stove will be sharing the same chimney flue as your furnace and water heater? I think that is a big NO NO? Or will they all have separate flues?

 

[Vic99]

I assume that they will have separate flues . . . I will definitely check that out.

 

[webbie]

I assume that they will have separate flues . . . I will definitely check that out.

You would need them to have 100% separate flues......

 

[elkimmeg]

The flue vent is 6 X 21 inches. I am not sure what the width of the actual chimney interior is.

How do you know the flue vent size without know the outside dementions?
Are there 2 separate flues what are there conditions? Is the current setup 3 appliances using the one chimney area to Vent

Is there any clay flue liner at all. 6 /21 is an oddball size which is why the red flags waves asking a lot more questions. If your installer were as qualified as he should be he would have asked every question I have. I can't believe he would not have qualified your current setup before scheduling installation. What about the retailer he never asked about your current setup?
No wonder he does not want to obtain permits.

Time to re-think about what you are about to do. Fortunately sound advice can be received here

 

[Vic99]

Perhaps we are talking about 2 different things . . . and I'm sure that my terminology is not up to speed.

When I say flue vent, I mean the hinged plate at the back of my fireplace that I open before I light a fire.

In the basement, both the furnance and the water heater run into the same pipe which then enters the chimney. From memory, this pipe is 8 or 10 inches wide.

I had a sales rep come out last week and take measurements of the chimney and its opening . . . at that time it did not occur to me to check in the basement. He also did not ask.

When I placed the stove order, I asked for a technician to come out this week to make sure that everything was going to work. The salesman seemed to think that everything was ok, but my wife wanted a guarantee, which has made this more complicated, but in a good way.

Obviously we want to both be safe and not have any issues with insurance, etc.

So I am awaiting a call from the store . . . it seems 50/50 they can get someone out here tomorrow.

Clearly I need to get someone here. Again, thanks for your help.

 

[Gooserider]

In your original post you mentioned that you were purchasing the stove from a shop in NH, I presume in order to get the automatic 5% discount from shopping north of the border (Good idea, you know more about how to spend your $$$ than the gov't does!). Aside from any other aspects, I'd suspect that the dealer doesn't want the hassles involved in dealing with the MA gov't headaches, or the potential hassles of getting chased for the sales tax. You are lucky he was even willing to come south at all.

At the least, I totally understand his not being willing to take all the extra time to deal with the paperwork hassles. If you pull the permit yourself, you loose the some of the theoretical recourses you would have if the dealer had pulled it, but that shouldn't be a big deal, as you would still have the recourses of small claims court, if he failed to do the job you paid for, or even regular court if there was a major problem that could be traced to negligence on his part. You'd also still have the ability to comment on his reputation if you felt it deserved it.

In theory at least, you should get the same quality of inspection (or lack of it!) that any person getting one should have - they tell you that the inspector is supposed to look at the same things and insist on the same requirements no matter who did the install, or who's name is on the paperwork. (In reality, there is evidence that campaign contributions and the like may cause varying standards of inspection, but Elk gets upset when we go there, so we won't....)

Now to the physical install details.....

There are two different things we talk about, and sometimes folks get a bit careless about the terms used, so it can be confusing, not to mention that the way houses are built can also add to the problem.

With the limited exception that under some limited cases a gas hot water heater and a gas furnace can be combined, you can only have ONE fuel burning appliance on an exhaust flue. A flue can take any number of forms, but is essentially an exhaust pipe. It can be a masonry chimney, or one of several different types of metal pipes, each with their own rules and standards for how they must be built. One common option is to run a stainless steel liner down the inside of a masonry chimney. Without seeing your setup it's impossible to be sure, but it sounds to me like this would be the best option for you, as it is fairly straightforward and reliable, as well as giving a safe install that performs well.

There are also Chimneys, which we commonly think of as those big masonry structures. It is not at all uncommon for a single chimney to contain several flues each serving a different appliance.

The hinged metal plate you see at the top of your fireplace is a DAMPER, and will probably need to be removed or modified to fit the stove's exhaust flue. Most installations will also need a block-off plate to seal around the flue pipe.

What you need to do is identify just what you have for a structure - how many flues do you have, where are they, and how big is each one. I would start by making a list of all the fuel burning appliances in your house, and how each one is vented. I would also get your current fireplace chimney swept and inspected to figure out what the best method will be to put in a stove. (No matter what you do for an install, you will need to have things cleaned...)

Given that you are local, I'd reccomend the sweep we use, George Weingart of Axon Chimney Services, axonchimney.com, 978-970-3800.

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

In theory at least, you should get the same quality of inspection (or lack of it!) that any person getting one should have - they tell you that the inspector is supposed to look at the same things and insist on the same requirements no matter who did the install, or who’s name is on the paperwork. (In reality, there is evidence that campaign contributions and the like may cause varying standards of inspection, but Elk gets upset when we go there, so we won’t....)

Just to set the record straight. In order for my to be hired as an inspector, I have to prove experience in the construction field of 5 years in a supervisory position. I then have to pass the 3 Natonal test, not just pass but achieve 75% or bettet in the internaional codes for one and two family dwellings, the entire International construction code then NFPA 13 sprinklers and NFPA 52 fire alarms ect. At that poin I become a local inspector. Beyond that I have taken the National mechanical code test and passed. No one paid me any money to take these test or pay for the code books and study material. It cost out of my pocket nearly $500
My job is by appointment. There is no campaign funds involved, as I am not elected. My qualifications are, I can be appointed an inspector in any State that has adopted the International codes. BTW that's all states. I don't know where campaign controbutions comes from but I am hired not elected.

Goose we get along fine ,but before you make such outlandish statements better get educated. I know you are anti gov't.

Btw we have to attend 45 contact hours of continuing education to maintain our certification ,which I have finally satisfied. I gave the seminars partly it was an hornor to be asked, but also to earn extra credits. I can tell you that nobody left my seminar without learning a thing or two.

Because we have met, this may be the poiliest way of telling you to back off and not diss my profession . I did not pay off anybody to get there and nobody will be able to pay me off.
I am vastly under paid for what I bring to the table. So no one can claim I do it for money.

 

[Gooserider]

In theory at least, you should get the same quality of inspection (or lack of it!) that any person getting one should have - they tell you that the inspector is supposed to look at the same things and insist on the same requirements no matter who did the install, or who’s name is on the paperwork. (In reality, there is evidence that campaign contributions and the like may cause varying standards of inspection, but Elk gets upset when we go there, so we won’t....)

Just to set the record straight. In order for my to be hired as an inspector, I have to prove experience in the construction field of 5 years in a supervisory position. I then have to pass the 3 Natonal test, not just pass but achieve 75% or bettet in the internaional codes for one and two family dwellings, the entire International construction code then NFPA 13 sprinklers and NFPA 52 fire alarms ect. At that poin I become a local inspector. Beyond that I have taken the National mechanical code test and passed. No one paid me any money to take these test or pay for the code books and study material. It cost out of my pocket nearly $500
My job is by appointment. There is no campaign funds involved, as I am not elected. My qualifications are, I can be appointed an inspector in any State that has adopted the International codes. BTW that's all states. I don't know where campaign controbutions comes from but I am hired not elected.

Goose we get along fine ,but before you make such outlandish statements better get educated. I know you are anti gov't.

Btw we have to attend 45 contact hours of continuing education to maintain our certification ,which I have finally satisfied. I gave the seminars partly it was an hornor to be asked, but also to earn extra credits. I can tell you that nobody left my seminar without learning a thing or two.

Because we have met, this may be the poiliest way of telling you to back off and not diss my profession . I did not pay off anybody to get there and nobody will be able to pay me off.
I am vastly under paid for what I bring to the table. So no one can claim I do it for money.

Elk, I don't doubt your qualifications, and you as an individual clearly have high standards about what you will accept and won't pass what you don't think is acceptable. As I've said my problem is not with the codes, or even with the inspection as such but with the gov't mandating part of it.

I am not 'dissing your profession' as a whole! However I feel quite certain that there are individual practitioners of it that are less than 100% honorable. Certainly some are less thorough than others (I've seen mention of it on these forums) and it is entirely reasonable to expect, especially given the cases where someone got caught, that there are inspectors that can be influenced to be more or less thorough depending on who they are inspecting. (I'm sure the Big Dig got inspected.... :red: )

I have encountered the "Good ole boy" network everyplace I've lived. This included gov't folks of many different sorts, including cops who can ask their buddies to give folks they don't like "extra attention" or various flavors of inspectors that have varying grades of acceptance depending on just who they are inspecting. In some cases it can be a direct 'donation' that causes the inspection difference, or a hiring official asking the inspector (who's job he controls) to "take care of my friends". Even in a minor case like getting a sticker for my bike - there are shops I can go to get my bike inspected, and there are shops that I can go to to get an inspection sticker - Supposedly the same process, same standards, same sticker, two different experiences. (and I'm not posting anything about which shops are which!)

Sure inspectors have to get gov't licenses and training, and certification - so do Doctors, but that doesn't make them universally good, competent or incorruptible. I know that in several of the cases where I've talked with folks in our town about work they've had done, the rumour mill has it that one's difficulty in dealing with the gov't paperwork can be greatly lessenned by hiring the "right" contractor. Said "right" contractors can frequently be found in the same bars where some of the town's elected officials hang out, and / or on OCPF campaign finance reports.... Can wrongdoing be proven? No, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something happenning - most woodburners know that smoke usually originates with some kind of fire....

I am sure most inspectors are reasonably honest, possibly the vast majority. I'm equally positive that there are some that aren't. The general convention is to pretend that this isn't the case, especially since by the flip side, a less than stellar inspector CAN make life very difficult for anyone that doesn't "toe the line" (We have a very competent plumber, he claims to KNOW of crooked inspectors in towns where he works, but will NOT get more specific on the grounds that he would never be able to get work approved in those towns if he started to blow the whistle....) I'm just ornery enough not to play that game, and call it the way I see it, just like a little kid did to a certain emperor. Was that kid "dissing" the emperor? Or maybe the proffession of being a tailor? IMHO, not, just calling it the way he saw it....

Gooserider