Need Mo' Heat!

[gstowe]

I've just read the thread about free-standing vs insert. Hope it's OK to start a new thread because I'm thinking of going in the opposite direction, from insert to free-standing. But feel free to convince me otherwise.

I've been heating with wood for 7 years now. When I bought my current house it had a fireplace with a stone chimney on an exterior wall - obviously not ideal. I decided to go with an insert and (like an ignorant newbie) bought it based on the square footage I was hoping to heat, completely disregarding the vaulted ceiling ... and not yet knowing how poorly insulated my attic was. I ended up getting a good quality Regency insert and that first winter we had no choice but to burn relatively green wood ... needless to say it was cold. I've learned a lot about wood heating and thermodynamics - the hard way.

Fast forward to 2017 ... I'm burning well-seasoned hardwoods and my attic has 20" of blown-in insulation. I've done just about all I can do to insulate, including the windows at night. But my wife & daughters are still sitting on top of that insert trying to stay warm, with that squirrel-fan rattling away trying to push some heat into the room. I can't help but think I'm severely undersized with that insert, and I'm thinking of bringing a free-standing stove onto the hearth, and go with something like the Hearthstone Equinox that's better sized for the CUBIC footage I'm trying to heat.

Couple of things are what they are - that exterior stone chimney for one. But are there considerations other than just going with a bigger free-stander? I'd sure hate to make that kind of investment and be disappointed in the outcome. Thanks for the counsel.

 

[begreen]

What insert is currently installed? Is there a block-off plate sealing the damper area? Any insulation behind the insert? How large an area are you trying to heat?

 

[blacktail]

All that writing and no details about what you're working with.

 

[Hogwildz]

Inserts heat just fine if properly sized, installed correctly, and burned correctly with good fuel.
Burning an insert here, heating 2666sf with 29' high vaulted ceilings. A good convection loop is a must in any setup if looking to heat anything more than one area.

Hope you took the time to air seal before pumping all the insulation in.

 

[webby3650]

I’m not sure an equinox would fit inside a Fireplace.. I’d also encourage you to pass on soapstone, especially the equinox.. overpriced underproducer in my opinion.

If you’ve got the room I’d keep what you have and add a freestanding stove in another location. Is that possible?

 

[gstowe]

The existing unit is a Regency I2400. Yes, the damper area was sealed off when the insert was connected. The insert has the surround that I recall had minimal insulation around the edge, but if the question is whether the interior of the fireplace was insulated - no, I don't think so.

The vaulted ceiling is 18'. I'm heating an extension to a house that is approx 2000 sf, relatively open floor plan. I use no other sources of heat - just the stove. Only trying to heat this one side of the house ... I have an 800' extension that I heat with a smaller Nectre stove, which is wonderful.

I burn what I have available on my farm, a combo of mostly hickory, poplar, hackberry, gum & oak, seasoned for at least a year. I maximize heat (obviously) with the hardwoods, but when we get down into the 20s it's still not enough for comfort.

Hogwildz - Yep, sealed up around can lights & fixtures before insulating ... thanks.

 

[gstowe]

I’m not sure an equinox would fit inside a Fireplace.. I’d also encourage you to pass on soapstone, especially the equinox.. overpriced underproducer in my opinion.

If you’ve got the room I’d keep what you have and add a freestanding stove in another location. Is that possible?

OK - thanks for that advice. Really no other location for another stove, and already have three that I'm feeding. Have a Kitchen Queen up in my shop, a small Nectre "Bun Oven" in my extension, and the insert in the main part of the house.

 

[jatoxico]

Didn't see you added a block off plate. Could do that before giving up on the insert. If the free stander would use the same chimney it would still be good to do.

 

[gstowe]

OK, just read the directions on how to fabricate a block-off plate ... this makes sense, and I'm pretty sure that was NOT done when the unit was originally installed. Seems I'll need to look into this during the off-season when I get the chimney cleaned. Also, my chimney is NOT lined ... my chimney sweep advised me not to bother with the extra expense and I just went on his recommendation.

Thusfar it seems the guidance is assuming heat losses out the back of the insert. Makes sense & seems correctable, but I still wonder if I'm not undersized on that insert, and wouldn't a free-standing stove radiate more heat without the constant thrum of the insert's fan?

 

[webby3650]

OK, just read the directions on how to fabricate a block-off plate ... this makes sense, and I'm pretty sure that was NOT done when the unit was originally installed. Seems I'll need to look into this during the off-season when I get the chimney cleaned. Also, my chimney is NOT lined ... my chimney sweep advised me not to bother with the extra expense and I just went on his recommendation.

Thusfar it seems the guidance is assuming heat losses out the back of the insert. Makes sense & seems correctable, but I still wonder if I'm not undersized on that insert, and wouldn't a free-standing stove radiate more heat without the constant thrum of the insert's fan?

Bingo! No liner or block off plate? I’d say you’ve definitely got issues...

 

[bholler]

So you have an insert with no liner? No wonder you are dissapointed with the performance. Find a new sweep and have ot installed correctly with a full insulated liner insulated blockoff plate and insulation behind the firebox and it will act like a completly different stove

 

[bholler]

OK, just read the directions on how to fabricate a block-off plate ... this makes sense, and I'm pretty sure that was NOT done when the unit was originally installed. Seems I'll need to look into this during the off-season when I get the chimney cleaned. Also, my chimney is NOT lined ... my chimney sweep advised me not to bother with the extra expense and I just went on his recommendation.

Thusfar it seems the guidance is assuming heat losses out the back of the insert. Makes sense & seems correctable, but I still wonder if I'm not undersized on that insert, and wouldn't a free-standing stove radiate more heat without the constant thrum of the insert's fan?

And yes most freestanders will radiate more but honestly your install is bad i would say you are loosing atleast 1/4 of your heat to the outside due to the poor quality install

 

[bholler]

But probably more than 1/4. Could even be 1/2

 

[begreen]

OK, just read the directions on how to fabricate a block-off plate ... this makes sense, and I'm pretty sure that was NOT done when the unit was originally installed. Seems I'll need to look into this during the off-season when I get the chimney cleaned. Also, my chimney is NOT lined ... my chimney sweep advised me not to bother with the extra expense and I just went on his recommendation.

Thusfar it seems the guidance is assuming heat losses out the back of the insert. Makes sense & seems correctable, but I still wonder if I'm not undersized on that insert, and wouldn't a free-standing stove radiate more heat without the constant thrum of the insert's fan?

That's a decent insert. Reducing heat loss to the cold masonry surrounding it will help improve its output. The other issue may be heat stratification. 18' is a very high ceiling. I'd be curious to know the temperature up there. Is there a ceiling fan or two normally running in this room?

 

[Ctwoodtick]

I’m no pro, but an insert with no liner is a bad idea. I have put up money to improve my install as these folks are describing and trust me, the good heat pays for itself very quickly. If you have a wife to convince, show her these responses which show that a more proper install will result in great heat. This is all aside from the much improved safety factor that you would gain from getting this unit lined with an insulated stainless liner.

 

[jatoxico]

So @gstowe how is the stove installed? Liner is preferable but should at least be directly connected to the chimney. Sure you don't mean the liner is not insulated not "no liner"? If it's just shoved into the fireplace you're not getting the performance and its dangerous.

 

[gstowe]

Great replies ... thanks to all for investing the time. Interesting that I could be losing 25-50% of my heat.

Yep, got a ceiling fan, three of them between the two levels. When I've got a string of 20-degree days the upstairs may get up to 70-degrees ... that's about it.

Before the stove was installed the chimney was "inspected" and found to have no cracks, damage, etc, so the sweep helped me install it. It is directly vented to the chimney, not just thrown into the fireplace. But after reading around here and everyone's responses, I get it about the heat loss. At this point I'm probably stuck w/ the status quo for another winter but will definitely look to correct in the spring. Thanks folks!

 

[bholler]

Great replies ... thanks to all for investing the time. Interesting that I could be losing 25-50% of my heat.

Yep, got a ceiling fan, three of them between the two levels. When I've got a string of 20-degree days the upstairs may get up to 70-degrees ... that's about it.

Before the stove was installed the chimney was "inspected" and found to have no cracks, damage, etc, so the sweep helped me install it. It is directly vented to the chimney, not just thrown into the fireplace. But after reading around here and everyone's responses, I get it about the heat loss. At this point I'm probably stuck w/ the status quo for another winter but will definitely look to correct in the spring. Thanks folks!

Well a direct vent is better than a slsmmer but not by much. Get it installed properly and dump that sweep. Any sweep that would recomend a direct connect should not be invited to work on your house.

 

[gstowe]

As for dumping the sweep ... I hear you. But I'm in a rural area with no sweep competition. Not sure I can coax another sweep from a couple counties away to come out for a visit but I'll certainly look into it. Otherwise I'm not averse to some DIY ... I just can't get up on that particular part of the roof - it's a steep chalet-style. The liner will definitely have to be contracted.

Sometimes one question leads to another. When I get this liner & insert properly installed (and hopefully heat my house!), will it be more or less challenging to sweep the chimney. The insert will still have to be removed from the fireplace in order to service the flue/liner, correct? Is this another disadvantage of the insert? My two stand-alone stoves are easy to access the chimney for service/sweeping, but the liner makes it relatively straightforward.

 

[jatoxico]

The insert will still have to be removed from the fireplace in order to service the flue/liner, correct?

If you have to remove the insert to sweep then you're not directly and properly connected to the existing clay tile. You should not have to do that and it indicates you have a slammer install.

You will benefit enormously from putting in a stainless liner and can sweep from the bottom yourself if you can't get on the roof. All sweepings will end up in the stove either way.

Look up slammer install here, it's not good to run that way.

 

[Woody Stover]

Can you rent a cherry-picker to install the liner yourself? I concur with opinions given so far...upgrade and see if the 12400 can do the job. Mid-TN is another level warmer than here from what I've seen on the weather. Pretty mild much of the time, your present insert may do. As far as cleaning, if you can remove the baffle and get access to the liner, you can clean it from the bottom..

Look up slammer install here, it's not good to run that way.

Sounds like he's got a direct-connect, which runs pipe up to the square tiles with a block-off plate there. Still, positive-connect is the way to go..liner all the way up.

 

[jatoxico]

Can you rent a cherry-picker to install the liner yourself? I concur with opinions given so far...upgrade and see if the 12400 can do the job. Mid-TN is another level warmer than here from what I've seen on the weather. Pretty mild much of the time, your present insert may do. As far as cleaning, if you can remove the baffle and get access to the liner, you can clean it from the bottom..
Sounds like he's got a direct-connect, which runs pipe up to the square tiles with a block-off plate there. Still, positive-connect is the way to go..liner all the way up.

Why the removal of the insert to sweep then?

 

[Woody Stover]

It's hard to sweep when going from round pipe to square tile, I would think..maybe @bholler can shed some light. Heck, I think the guy that sweeps my neighbor's pulls his insert, and it's lined all the way to the top. That guy isn't all that sharp though..

 

[jatoxico]

AFAIK a well done direct connection should allow a sweep w/o removal of the insert. I don't think I'd have an insert if I had to remove it every time.

The insert has the surround that I recall had minimal insulation around the edge

This and the other poor advice from the installer/sweep makes me think some variation of a slammer but maybe just a poorly installed direct connect.

@gstowe is there ash etc on top of the insert when you pull it to clean?

 

[Woody Stover]

Need some pics of the hearth to see what free-standers might fit, should the insert still not have enough arse. We love to see people buy new stoves!