New City ordanance for outdoor wood burners

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buildingmaint

Feeling the Heat
Jan 19, 2007
459
Oil City PA
Local city officials have drafted new ordinance's for the use of outdoor wood boilers.
One, almost sounds to be designed to eliminate outdoor wood boilers from the city proper.
It say that the boilers chimney must be 4 feet above any roof line for 300' in any direction.
Just think if you live at the bottom of a hill , how high your chimney will have to be .
 
buildingmaint said:
Local city officials have drafted new ordinance's for the use of outdoor wood boilers.
One, almost sounds to be designed to eliminate outdoor wood boilers from the city proper.
It say that the boilers chimney must be 4 feet above any roof line for 300' in any direction.
Just think if you live at the bottom of a hill , how high your chimney will have to be .
yea but think of the draft you will be pulling!
 
buildingmaint said:
It say that the boilers chimney must be 4 feet above any roof line for 300' in any direction.
Just think if you live at the bottom of a hill , how high your chimney will have to be .

If there's a "public comment" session, or something similar, you should go...

Tall chimneys like that would require are a significant safety hazard. As the flue gasses rise, they cool, and that leads to condensation which can eat away at the steel, resulting in structural failure of the chimney.

Joe
 
buildingmaint said:
Local city officials have drafted new ordinance's for the use of outdoor wood boilers.
One, almost sounds to be designed to eliminate outdoor wood boilers from the city proper.
It say that the boilers chimney must be 4 feet above any roof line for 300' in any direction.
Just think if you live at the bottom of a hill , how high your chimney will have to be .

if someone really wants to get to the heart of the matter, look at efficiencies and particulates, not heights of buildings and chimneys

the part-libertarian-streak in me hates to see numbskull bureaucratic regulations, but having driven by some outdoor wood boilers that were being fed with who knows what for fuel, and leaving a plume that turned the sky yellow everywhere around and a disturbing distance downwind, I'd be pretty exercised if someone plunked one and ran it like that straight up wind from me in a close neighborhood. which is one of the reasons why I like living in the relative sticks :)

So... seems to me that, other than maybe setting some basic health and safety standards where objective measurements are used to shut down things that belch filth continuously (almost like the federal regs where heavy diesel trucks, even old ones, are supposedly only allowed to emit visible particulates for a finite brief interval during acceleration, or else they're supposed to be taken off line unless and until the problem is corrected), this all comes down to an expression that I once heard attributed to a utility CEO in the late 80s about how to get utilities and customers to invest in more efficient technologies: "the rat must be able to smell the cheese."

In the wood boiler context, this would mean: forget about stack heights. grandfather all existing units to keep peace; existing OWBs will gradually kick the bucket or otherwise be replaced. to keep life simple for farmers and rural dwellers, exempt anything on a property over 10 acres, and let the changes in technology follow the rest, as they eventually naturally will as technologies mature and costs come down. then create something in the nature of a modest annual licensing fee, that rises each year for new installs, but is kept the same for the life of the install as it is in the year of initial install, for technologies that do not burn efficiently or cleanly. take the proceeds of the "smoking fee" and start building a pool of funds for incentive credits for new installs of the really clean and efficient units. have a list of pre-qualified makes and models that are clean and efficient enough to get the credits. get a pro-wood person to administer the program, and do a lot of education and outreach not only on how much cleaner the efficient units burn, but how much less wood and labor is used- and that the useful life expectancy of the efficient units is a lot longer than the smoky units.

if it cost $50 a year for the life of the unit to operate brand new installs of a smoky inefficient unit, and someone is told that they get a $100 rebate towards a unit that not only runs cleaner and will burn less wood but last longer, then the market will not take too long to follow. you just have to give the invisible hand a nudge. Yugos were the cheapest cars going, in terms of initial cost, but consumers were familiar enough with automotive technologies and long run costs for transportation that (sensibly) almost no one bought them. We just need to get the broader public jump started up the learning curve on wood boilers.
 
A fee system to help promote cleaner burning wood units is nice in concept BUT in New Hampshire (one of the lowest taxed per capita but FEES{cute word for tax} to death if you are in business states) they would need to hire more personnel to admin the tax, several more to enforce the regs and then be broke so the funds would have to be moved to the general budget and then make the regs more Al Gorest to increase the FEES :)
Education I believe is the best way to promote cleaner use. Dealers are the first step not just in the sale but Proper working of any wood appliance, Health officers in towns and at the state level is possibly the next step in process. But even in my small town you have a few who make it difficult for the rest and someone promotes an out right ban in a warrant and it passes. So a properly used unit is now outlawed.
Live Free or Die
 
603doug said:
A fee system to help promote cleaner burning wood units is nice in concept BUT in New Hampshire (one of the lowest taxed per capita but FEES{cute word for tax} to death if you are in business states) they would need to hire more personnel to admin the tax, several more to enforce the regs and then be broke so the funds would have to be moved to the general budget and then make the regs more Al Gorest to increase the FEES :)
Education I believe is the best way to promote cleaner use. Dealers are the first step not just in the sale but Proper working of any wood appliance, Health officers in towns and at the state level is possibly the next step in process. But even in my small town you have a few who make it difficult for the rest and someone promotes an out right ban in a warrant and it passes. So a properly used unit is now outlawed.
Live Free or Die

I've never lived in NH, but used to do a considerable amount of work for businesses there on topics that related to regulation and licensing, and I agree that there's a fee for every time some entity without a direct vote decides to sit down or stand up; as you say, each fee is a tax by any other name in a state that claims to be anti-tax.
 
pybyr & buildingmaint,
Grandfathering can work well but doesn't always. Rules are necessary especially where someones health is at risk and not all parties are observant or mindful of the situation. But please never give a bureaucrat the option to dig in our pockets... they just never know when to stop. It's their nature because it's their lively hood. Buildingmaint is probably correct thinking someone wants to eliminate owb's in the PA town he is referencing and all for the good reasons you have cited. A good lawyer (more added expense) could probably find ordinances that would shoot down the "passion of the moment" legislation but that would probably not stop a resurgence. The technology is already being mandated in many areas and even in federal concerns that force cleaner emissions and maybe that's good. The mfg's should have some responsibility where liabilities are concerned because they knew there are laws governing smoke stacks and various fuels emissions in many cities. We all need to focus on what we can do to protect our investments and make our futures secure. We can only do that by pulling together. Some ordinances already focus on gassifiers and I am not sure they aren't fossil fuel lobby inspired or direct political concerns because of their language. BrownianHeatingTech probably nailed it when he suggests attending the town meetings which many of us don't. I think the over all of it is we are not organized to implement a proactive stand/concern in any form of government because we are not united and we need to be. $.02
 
Fining polluters doesn't work. Since the money goes to the bureaucrats, they come up with excuses to generate more fines. The goal we (or most of us) share is to have biomass heating become more common. Bureaucrats who are only looking at their coffers will make asinine restrictions, just for an excuse to generate fines.

Here's a cobbled-together "open letter" to the folks proposing these regulations...

There's an old saying: your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. Those who are actually causing problems (ie, excess smoke levels crossing into neighboring property) should be dealt with based upon that. They should be required to "clean up their act," or to pay damages to any individual who is harmed by the smoke.

So, if you want to blow smoke around, and it is polluting my property, I can demand that you cease or (for example) pay to have my windows and doors re-weatherstripped and an air filtration system installed in my house. You can decide which option works best for you.

No "blind" rules are going to work in this situation, because no two installations are going to be the same. I might know (due to years of living someplace) that 95% of the time, the wind will blow the smoke away from my neighbors, and maybe I buy them a case of their favorite wine to compensate them for the annoyance of having some smoke on their property, the other 5% of the time, and we're all happy. A bureaucrat just ends up making a rule that says the boiler must meet certain setbacks, and if I don't, I have to pay him. Even if my neighbor is perfectly happy with the way things are.

I'm all for high-quality, clean-burning gasification boilers. That's my primary business - not just the largest segment, but more than half of all the work I do. There are some folks who can't afford them, but let's call that a temporary problem - higher fuel prices will make the conversion more and more affordable, as time goes on. There are also folks who generate wood waste as a part of their businesses. Do we tell them it's legal to burn in a smoky, open pit, but illegal to try and do "the right thing" and capture some of that wasted energy by burning in an OWB? Every btu they get from the wood, is one less btu that comes from oil or other fossil fuels.

Let's give folks the opportunity to do what they can with the fuel they have and the funds they have. And deal with problems if they actually exist, on a case-by-case basis, rather than inventing problems so we have an excuse to "regulate" them.

Joe
 
buildingmaint said:
Local city officials have drafted new ordinance's for the use of outdoor wood boilers.
One, almost sounds to be designed to eliminate outdoor wood boilers from the city proper.
It say that the boilers chimney must be 4 feet above any roof line for 300' in any direction.
Just think if you live at the bottom of a hill , how high your chimney will have to be .

Typical politicians solution. Throw a law on the books that does nothing to address the root problem which as someone else has said is low efficiency and particulate emission. I think it would be a good idea for those of us who know what's going on to attend some of these county/city/township board meetings and try to clue in the clueless as to what the real solution is.

Hint..............It's not tall chimneys
 
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