New here - IWB or OWB installation costs & recommendations

[burnergirl]

Hi there, I've been lurking on this forum for a few weeks trying to absorb all I can but I feel like I've gotten to a point where I am looking for some advice from you fine folks.

I live in Central NC, about 30 minutes from the VA border, where winter temps can get down to about 5-10°F (but are typically in the 20's overnight). I have a 5,600 sf old farmhouse with minimal insulation and old doors (both of which will be addressed this year - adding insulation to attic, basement, and replacing drafty doors).

I need to figure out a way to heat 3,800 sf (the main and 2nd floor of the house) with a wood boiler. I am currently burning through approximately 350 gallons of propane each month for a heating bill of approximately $900/mo. during the winter. This is clearly not sustainable as I'm not rich and don't want to keep throwing money at the propane company.

I have looked at both the IWB and OWB and am slightly confused after speaking with numerous dealers. I want to use the wood boiler as my main heat source for my hotwater baseboards and domestic hot water and have the system go to an automatic backup of the propane boiler if the temp drops. This doesn't appear to be an issue with most systems. My issue seems to be one of what exactly is necessary to install a good solid system. I am fine with building an outbuilding to house the boiler however this will be approximately 250 ft from the basement where it will need to hook into the existing system. I have been educated in the benefits of thermal storage however I'm not sure whether this is recommended for OWBs as well as IWBs. Also, I was shown a setup recently that had additional expansion tanks. Are these required with every setup? I really want to keep my costs overall INCLUDING installation below $15,000. Is this feasible? I've been warned that installation alone could cost $5-10k which blows my mind. I cannot do any of the installation or setup myself therefore suggestions of doing so will be ignored. Also, I'm not interested in coal burning so please save your breath. I want high efficiency (phase 2 compliant) and minimal cost.

Thank you in advance for your help. This forum is filled with super knowledgeable people and I feel like I've been educated tremendously already!

 

[__dan]

I have ~$15,000. in material alone into my system. That's just the boiler (Froling), the header with two sets of OAT controlled injection mixing pumps (one for oil, one for wood), indirect hot water (existing tank), the flue, tied into an existing system. Does not include the future 400 gal pressurized storage tank.

I would guess anyone with a running build that came in under that number did a self install so the number carries zero for labor. I would very fairly quote my install with a storage tank in the range of $25K installed. The underground run and outbuilding would be additional.

Not to scare you but that's the range of numbers I have into it. Compared to burning oil I have more heat, more pride and enjoyment in my firemaking, and payback less than five years. That's what I would suggest first is to look at your future propane cost for five to ten years out, in aggregate. That number, and what you can do or spend that kind of money on alternately, for heat but not propane. Getting that number, you could have more than $30,000 in future propane cost over the next ten years, money that could be spent on insulation, siding, windows, a boiler.

It took me more than a couple of years of reading here to get a plan together.

 

[burnergirl]

Thanks for the reply, Dan. Is it possibly lower cost to install going with an OWB? I've looked at the Froling and that seemed to be a very high end indoor boiler. I have been considering the Varmebaronen Vedolux 55 with 3 Aqualux UB 1000 storage tanks or the Econoburn for indoor systems and Crown Royal RS7300E and Heatmaster G200 (or G400? not sure which makes more sense). None of the OWB sites seem to talk about thermal storage. Is it a necessity going that route? It seems like that would save money (perhaps not time) with the install? Is it feasible to get under $25,000 all in? I don't really understand why the installation cost is astronomical.

 

[__dan]

IWB and OWB are completely different animals.

The Europeans are much more into wood burning and "green". Starting back as far as the 1970's the Europeans started regulating emissions and efficiency. It took 30 years for that curve to trend down. The surviving technology is downdraft gasification boilers with storage for continuous hot burning to exhaustion of the fuel load, with the excess heat over demand going to storage. Garns are also in that league.

For the same money, American style OWB's can be expected to smoke, smolder, and burn twice the fuel for the same heat. OWB's are not cheaper initially, and certainly not cheaper over the life of the install.

Contracting is a wide open competitive market so there's no producer pricing power. There's not enough paying work for everyone who wants to compete. Lower price installs I would expect to have lower quality materials and labor below what I would feel comfortable building. You are welcome to go into business producing something for the general public, see what your expenses are, see what the market is willing to pay, and usually see the resulting deficits. To be fair, I feel it is impossible to get the quality level I demand by hiring other contractors, who are most likely tuned into producing for a lower bid market. I have to build my stuff myself.

It's a large and long lived capital expense or investment which requires a high level of specialized knowledge to pursue and carry out. It is not in the mainstream of cookie cutter, cut and paste, standard high volume high production jobs, which does add to the cost some.

There are ways to cut cost but they would involve deleting materials and controls, operating features, that I would not in good conscience delete. The better quality higher cost job is frequently cheaper and better performing over the life of the install. It is a money saver to invest wisely.

 

[JP11]

I scrounged storage tanks and got them for free. I still ended up around 16k.

Yes, expansion is needed for all, assuming that you use pressurized storage. Pressurized storage is able to go higher on temperature, thus giving you a bigger swing from Hot to Cold.. extending your time between fires.

JP

 

[Hydronics]

My advise: avoid OWB's - not as efficient and generally lesser quality. You can save a lot if you install an indoor in the basement assuming this is an option. I prefer it in out building but underground piping is a large expense. Even a gasification boiler without storage will put you way ahead of an OWB.
For lower cost, quality gasifiers you might consider EKO or Biomass from New Horizon, Vigas from AHONA and also Econoburn. You could install storage at a later date when you have the money. You would need to be more selective when burning in your warmer environment, you don't want it idling for hours when it's 50* outside. Use propane when it's warmer.
If you can fit a Garn in your basement or garage you will already have storage as it's built into the unit and they are high quality.
Another important consideration: you will need dry wood so get it cut split and stacked ASAP. This will only give one summer of dry time which is marginal.

 

[burnergirl]

My advise: avoid OWB's - not as efficient and generally lesser quality. You can save a lot if you install an indoor in the basement assuming this is an option. I prefer it in out building but underground piping is a large expense. Even a gasification boiler without storage will put you way ahead of an OWB.
For lower cost, quality gasifiers you might consider EKO or Biomass from New Horizon, Vigas from AHONA and also Econoburn. You could install storage at a later date when you have the money. You would need to be more selective when burning in your warmer environment, you don't want it idling for hours when it's 50* outside. Use propane when it's warmer.
If you can fit a Garn in your basement or garage you will already have storage as it's built into the unit and they are high quality.
Another important consideration: you will need dry wood so get it cut split and stacked ASAP. This will only give one summer of dry time which is marginal.

Thanks Hydronics for the input.

My narrow basement stairs make a basement installation very difficult, not to mention the fact that I'm not thrilled with dealing with transporting the wood down there as it is not in a good location as far as where my wood will be delivered and stored. I'm well aware that my wood is not going to be dry enough for a while which totally freaks me out but I can't commit to a wood delivery without really knowing what direction I'm heading.

I've been studying all of the gasifiers you've mentioned except for the Garn as I thought it was a very high-end product and didn't realize that it encompassed the storage. I'll take another look and see if that makes more sense. Thanks.

 

[maple1]

Another important consideration: you will need dry wood so get it cut split and stacked ASAP. This will only give one summer of dry time which is marginal.

This. You haven't said anything about keeping a wood boiler in good fuel. So how is your fuel supply situation? How much are you expecting to burn each winter, or would be prepared to put up/get ready/buy each year? If you don't have next years wood cut, split & drying now, you are already somewhat behind an 8-ball.

On costs, I'm right around $15k CDN. That's new boiler, used propane storage & expansion tanks, new electric hot water tank, backup electric boiler, and all miscellaneous piping & fittings stuff. Basically the whole house heating system except zone valves & rads. Also includes around $1500 to get it here in freight/duty/exchange. But I did everything myself - not sure how much $ saving that translates into, but I put a LOT of hours into it.

There are also some very nice pellet boilers on the market now too.

 

[burnergirl]

So how is your fuel supply situation? How much are you expecting to burn each winter, or would be prepared to put up/get ready/buy each year? If you don't have next years wood cut, split & drying now, you are already somewhat behind an 8-ball.

My fuel supply situation is nonexistent at the moment which I know puts me way behind the 8-ball! I'm expecting to burn 8-10 cords a winter and as soon as I can figure out that I can afford to do this, I will be commissioning a carpenter to build me a wood shed that holds at least 8 cords.

On costs, I'm right around $15k CDN. That's new boiler, used propane storage & expansion tanks, new electric hot water tank, backup electric boiler, and all miscellaneous piping & fittings stuff. Basically the whole house heating system except zone valves & rads. Also includes around $1500 to get it here in freight/duty/exchange. But I did everything myself - not sure how much $ saving that translates into, but I put a LOT of hours into it.
There are also some very nice pellet boilers on the market now too.

If I'm around $20k US all in (including installation), that's not a deal breaker.

I would consider a pellet boiler only if it took cord wood too which I know some do but I don't want to be a slave to the pellet companies either but I know that would save me the first year while my wood dries out.

 

[Floydian]

Hi burnergirl,

Can you give us some more info about your current heat distribution setup? I'm hoping you say cast iron radiators but I'm guessing forced air. Apologies if you already mentioned this and I missed it. The type of heating system you have will be a big factor in your decisions going forward.

Do you have or need AC?

Another big factor is your actual heat load. Estimating this based on you propane usage might get you close but maybe not. Poorly designed/installed duct work can really kill the efficiency of forced air systems and it would be a BIG bummer to spend lots of $ on a wood heating system that wont really overcome this. Not nearly as big a deal if you have radiators and you are circulating hot water.

Back to the heat load thing- The proper way to go about this would be to start with an accurate heat loss calculation. This will determine supply temps, flow rates, tubing sizing, pump sizing, heat exchanger sizing, etc. Yes, it's somewhat complicated but certainly something you could do yourself. Calculating conductive heat loss is pretty straight forward, estimating air leakage rates less so.
A blower door test could be a big help when it comes to the efficiency upgrades you plan for the house. Adding insulation wont have much benefit if you don't properly air seal first.

Sorry, I'm rambling and I've gotta go but I have a indoor gasifier and thermal storage setup and I might not be too far away from you. You'd be welcome to check it out if you think seeing a setup like this in person would help with your decision.

Noah

 

[Tennman]

BG, We were in almost exactly the same situation 7 years ago with our almost 5,000sf home that is about the same latitude, Tenn/AL line. Latitude is a big deal. I'm guessing your home is old and remote also. We had propane bills similar to yours with the thermostat set on the low 60's back when propane was much cheaper. We didn't want to spend $1200/month to be comfortable (~68F) so i started researching alternatives. Also, our property has enough timber to provide free fuel indefinitely if I could process it.

Our home is remote and we have many of neighbors with Hardy OWBs which I was going to install until I discovered this site. I spoke with many Hardy/OWB users and the theme was always similar. They were run by active, healthy men who liked the savings and warmth of their homes, but admitted spending a LOT of time and energy gathering wood to keep their beasts fed. And most of their homes were half the size of ours.

Now... I feel like I need to get personal. Will you be the primary or only operator of the boiler. I ask because my wife actually enjoys running the boiler, she runs the splitter when necessary to make smaller splits, pulls a small wagon load of wood into our boiler barn during the winter, has learned when to feed, and how to deal with bridging. In general she can/will run the boiler when I'm on travel for as long as a week at a time. She's never taken off the bottom or top clean-out panels to do periodic maintenance, removed ash from bottom chamber, cleaned the top chamber, removed turbulators and run a brush to clean the tubes, replaced damaged ceramics, or tuned vents/adjusted fan. Had I known we would actually enjoy the wood boiler lifestyle, I would have spent an additional $4-5K for a higher end boiler like operated by some of the posters above with a kinder operating and maintenance schedule. Regardless, it became apparent to me this winter that at the age of 62, I would reach a point where it would become difficult and unsafe for me to process wood by myself. If I suddenly disappeared, my wife could not sustain the boiler without me. I think most guys here would agree that if they were suddenly gone, their wife's would have to come up with an alternative heating source if they wanted to keep their home, which we definitely do (our property will be passed to our children).

I'll summarize because I'm getting too long, if pellets are available in your area, consider a pellet boiler. If you'll be buying all your wood and paying for delivery/stacking, the difference in annual heating costs could be surprisingly small for a dramatic reduction in time/maintenance. We'll be adding a pellet boiler this summer to complement our wood boiler. As I'm forced to buy instead of process wood, the wood vs pellet heating cost difference narrows.

The last few days down here in the south, day temps were mid 50's with nites in the mid 20's. In the south we see extremes like this frequently during the winter (50F days are not unusual in January). If you go with a wood boiler that is where storage becomes a dream and amazingly freeing. Ironically, I think storage is more useful in the south than for northern operators now that we've experienced it since we can have "shoulder" seasons basically all winter.

Sorry I got so long winded but we live in a latitude where air conditioning is required and large winter temperature swings are common. You've found the right site with very knowledgeable and helpful guys. Ladies posting here are rare. Ask away and you'll get lots of generous advice. You need to discuss if your boiler must use ductwork or radiant type heating. Lots to learn.

Best wishes.

 

[ewdudley]

And don't forget coal. You can probably have them bring you a 22.5 ton load of anthracite down I81 for less than $6,000 that would last you 6 years or more. Boilers are less expensive and can go into your existing basement, no OWB, no boiler shed, no hot water storage tanks, no underground lines, no splitting, no stacking, no taking your ear off with a chainsaw.

 

[pulse]

I would highly recommend taking a close look at the new g200 from heatmaster. If what I have been reading about them is true, they could be a real game changer for the owb world. I dont have a clue on price but I can't imagine them being much over 10k. I would think 15k would get you a turn key system.

 

[S.Whiplash]

A little reading of the original post answers some of these questions. As she mentioned she has hot water baseboards so most of her hydronic heating system is already in place, she just needs to tie into it. Expansion tank for in house system is probably already there if the installer knew what he was doing. Many less expensive wood boiler options available than a Froling and for 5,600 sq. ft. you will probably need a wood boiler with an output of around 200,000 btu's but could potentially save some coin and get by with smaller output of 150,000 if for sure going with thermal storage.

Putting a boiler in a shop is a great idea especially since you are having a new wood shed constructed. Why not add another 10-12 ft. for a boiler room? There are also outdoor wood gasification boilers available that work quite efficiently and do not require a building. Empire Elite XT, Polar G-2 and Econoburn EBW-O to mention a few options available. Boiler alone will run around $8,000-10,000 and another large expense will be good quality underground pipe which runs $12-14/ft..

As mentioned the most economical bang for the buck for thermal storage are decommissioned 500 gal. propane tanks which can be picked up when available for $200-$500 and with some cleaning and fittings welded on will probably cost you less than $800 in total. Purchasing new a 500 gal. thermal storage tanks runs around $3500. A propane tank also needs to be insulated and placed inside and not likely to get down your stairs so this makes the shop or wood shed installation look like the most viable option.

Hope this helps.

 

[Mike Fromme]

Since you're not doing the install I'd buy from a full service dealer. One that sells, installs and and can fix it when needed. In my area that rules out most everyone except for tarm/froling.

Install costs are high because of all the various parts and controls that are needed in addition to the actual boiler. I'd expect 2-3k in labor and that much again in parts, more if you are doing storage. Expansion tanks for 1000 gallons and or heat exchangers are not cheap.

 

[Como]

I have been paying less that 2 dollars a gallon for propane.

It does not sound like you have a massive load, maybe 6 cords a year?

Maybe less depending on how effective your insulation will be.

The big question is if you have to buy in wood or can source yourself.

Personally I think propane is low and will increase but at the moment 350 gallons in a high efficiency boiler is 30 million BTUs. The wood equivalent assuming good hard wood in a gasser would be a cord and half. So how much would wood cost you?

I am not as anti old fashioned OWBs, I can see circumstances where they make sense. For example the local fire station has one, no neighbours and there is a dump for trash wood that they feed it with.

Another OWB, a semi gasser runs pretty much flat out as it heats partially a hotel, not much idling. There is a gas boiler that tops up when needed.

Personally I would do my insulation and infiltration, start building up my wood supply and see how it goes next year and how big a wood system I would need if I go that route.

Better to keep the crud outside.

 

[flyingcow]

Get your house tightened up as planned/ This will lower your costs a lot more than you think. IMO, don't skimp. Do it right. Money well spent.

Wood? if you got 8 cord right now, cut/split/stacked in a nice location, it should dry down pretty good. not ideal, but it'll do. Oh yeah, you might as well buy 16 cord. should have at least one yrs of wood drying at least for 12 months. If you haven't seen 16 cord of wood in a big pile, it'll take up alot of room. Could be a bit overwhelming at first.

Wood shed?? Make it big enough to hold 2 yrs of wood. save a lot of handling. Needs to be ventilated well.

Sometimes you can find some really good deals on used wood boilers. especially in the next few months.

Underground piping. Probably looking at $15 a ft. plus excavation. Not cheap.

Installers familiar with wood boilers? Or dealers that sell wood boilers and install also? If you find some, see if you can visit some of their installs. Also, you've got one offer from here to go see an install. be worth the trip IMO.

Keep hanging out on this site. learn as you go. Good group of people here. you may not be able to complete the boiler project this year? Or change your mind and look at pellets? keep options open.

I have it very easy compared to others when it comes to handling wood.All my wood goes on pallets and is moved by tractor. But it's still alot of work. If i had to do it all over again, i'd look at pellets, coal and even heat pumps(which i already have). BTW, whats your cost for electricity? i also have air sourced Heat pumps. i like them, they even work well up here in northern maine. Down where you are? should work very well.

there are a few good websites to visit concerning insulating an existing house. more to it than some think. Maybe this DIY group could supply links to sites they use?

 

[JP11]

Even with my wood boiler now..

If I could wave a magic wand and do it over...

Another inverter, and another 5wk worth of solar panels... and some mini split heat pumps.. maybe a pellet boiler for radiant in the basement.

I could have done it a lot more efficient.

JP

 

[burnergirl]

Wow! Thank you for all the replies! I had computer issues yesterday and am now catching up on the posts.

So I had a boiler specialist come out today to take a look and give me a ballpark for installation. It was anything but good news and now I'm even more confused about what I need to be doing.

This is from the email he sent me after he ran numbers (bold highlights are courtesy of me):
"www.uponorpro.com has the prices on there website for pre insulated pipe. I figured on the 2” pipe. It comes in a 300ft roll. You need approx. 200ft we said. You have to buy the whole roll though. It’s $43.50 per foot. Thats $13,050.00. I ran quick numbers on the labor. If I had three men on the job for 4 days, thats 96 man hours. Labor is gonna be around $18,000.00 . We are already up to $31K without the cost of the equipment or a ditch dug. "

Uhhh, is he crazy or am I just going about this in the wrong way? The boiler would be about 100-150 ft from the basement so it would require piping there and back to close the loop. I think I'm losing my mind.

---
I'm going to edit here so that I don't keep responding over and over again in the thread. I apologize if I miss some questions that were asked -

-Yes I'm going to be the primary person handling everything with the wood to the boiler, etc. I'm in decent shape and I'm fairly young (depending on who you ask!), I believe I can swing that part of it.

-I just went and saw an Econoburn setup recently that looked great but it did trigger me to write this post because of learning about the added costs involved. I would certainly love to take Noah up on his offer to visit and check out the set up however I'm still not sure that would solve my main issue of overall installation costs.

- My house has hot water baseboard heat and only the 2nd floor (where the bedrooms are) has ductwork for A/C. I have ONE zone (and no A/C downstairs) which makes me very sad because HVAC people have come in and told me that it would be a nightmare to split the zones once they looked at my pipes.

-I have plaster walls and ceilings so adding ductwork would only really happen through the basement up through the floors. I've been quoted ~$20k to add ductwork which doesn't seem worth it at this point.

-I am in the boonies and have plentiful access to wood.

 

[Hydronics]

Without having actual btu requirements you'd likely need 1.25" or 1.5" tubing at that distance. That should run you less than $20/ft without labor. The closer you put the boiler to the house the more you can obviously save.
I'd prioritize insulation and maybe consider a pellet boiler in basement as another option. Can you get pellet bags in through a basement window with a chute? Or do the same with wood if you go that route? You would need a flue also for a wood boiler.

 

[JP11]

If I were you.. I'd be looking pellet boiler. Plastic kids slide thru a window.

You can stack the heck out of the bags. No storage needed (water storage tanks that is)

No wood shed to be built (there's your first and second year's pellet budget right there)

much cheaper. If you don't own a woodlot already.. I'd go with a windhager.

JP

 

[pulse]

Pretty sure your numbers are totally and completely out of wack. If your installer quoted those, don't walk....run away. No reason your system couldn't easily be split once in the house also, hot water hx for the baseboard and water to air for the upstairs duct work. No reason to add duct work down stairs.

 

[Como]

2 inch implies a heat load of probably 4 times your current demand.

 

[Woodfarmer1]

Why does the boiler need to be so far from your house?
The underground piping has supply and return tubing inside it so you don't require two separate pipes.
I put in 75' backhoe dug 5' trench and we had it covered in less than an hour.

Last fall I,purchased the Garn Jr. (After having run an empyre without storage) imho, garn is the only way to go, you'll need the larger 2000.
Fire and storage contained in one unit, extremely easy to operate with very little maintenance involved.

You should be able to do a similar install as mine with the Garn 2000 for $20 000 connected to your existing heating system.

 

[burnergirl]

Without having actual btu requirements you'd likely need 1.25" or 1.5" tubing at that distance. That should run you less than $20/ft without labor. The closer you put the boiler to the house the more you can obviously save.
I'd prioritize insulation and maybe consider a pellet boiler in basement as another option. Can you get pellet bags in through a basement window with a chute? Or do the same with wood if you go that route? You would need a flue also for a wood boiler.

I'll look more into pellets but I'm just not sure how anyone is going to get any heavy boiler down into the basement due to very narrow stairs that turn at the doorway to enter.

Pretty sure your numbers are totally and completely out of wack. If your installer quoted those, don't walk....run away. No reason your system couldn't easily be split once in the house also, hot water hx for the baseboard and water to air for the upstairs duct work. No reason to add duct work down stairs.

That makes me feel better! I will keep interviewing installers.

2 inch implies a heat load of probably 4 times your current demand.

That's very interesting. This installer was thinking I needed 200,000 BTUs.

Why does the boiler need to be so far from your house?
The underground piping has supply and return tubing inside it so you don't require two separate pipes.
I put in 75' backhoe dug 5' trench and we had it covered in less than an hour.

I had no idea. This is great news about the same pipes. The boiler needs to be so far from the house due to the way my house and land are situated. I don't have any way for anyone to drive a truck up on the other side of my house (without the driveway) and my land is very soft so even if they tried they'd sink in which I can't have. If the boiler was near the driveway I could have my wood deliveries near the planned wood shed and boiler comfortably.