New line of epa certified owbs
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They just tease you and give little information. It would be nice to see how they work.
www.centralboiler.com
www.heatmor.com
www.centralboiler.com
www.heatmor.com
WOW! Central Boiler is claiming near 100% combustion efficiency.
I also noticed a link to their rebuttal page at
www.outdoorfurnacefacts.com
I have issues with some of their answers on the "Facts and Myths" page.
I also noticed a link to their rebuttal page at
www.outdoorfurnacefacts.com
I have issues with some of their answers on the "Facts and Myths" page.
A lack of information and a blatant attempt to baffle you with BS.
The CB has a "Custom-Designed Synergetic Combustion System"
The Heatmor features a "Three-Stage Combustion Process" that includes a "Fusion Combustor" and a "Reaction Chamber."
Whatever all that means. They give zero details. I don't know why they don't have cut-out diagrams like everyone else so you can see what all the excitement is about.
Anyway, they both claim to pass the EPA regs, so that's good. I'd like to see both in action.
The CB has a "Custom-Designed Synergetic Combustion System"
The Heatmor features a "Three-Stage Combustion Process" that includes a "Fusion Combustor" and a "Reaction Chamber."
Whatever all that means. They give zero details. I don't know why they don't have cut-out diagrams like everyone else so you can see what all the excitement is about.
Anyway, they both claim to pass the EPA regs, so that's good. I'd like to see both in action.
I think they are trying to keep things as secret as posible to try and stay ahead of the competition. I heard that CB has had theres for a couple years but They wouldn't let ANYone see it. Trying to get the bugs out. With the new regs. the manufactures are all rushing to get things out there and they will be stealing (borrowing, I'm sorry) to try and sell as many units. It will be interesting in a few years on which ones work and which ones go down the drain so to speak. It's to bad the European Co. don't get into the mix as we really need the NEW stuff.
I also wish the advertising would get alittle more truthfull. Like : NO SMOKE (Very little smoke on start up), 100% efficiant (87% or 91% or 56% true efficiant)
Can burn GREEN WOOD (greenwood will burn but will smoke and not burn good. Please burn 15% to 25% wood), Storage is not needed (storage will stop short cycleing and make the unit more efficiant and let you run into the warmer seasons.) Ours is better than all the others because the others don't-bla bla bla ( ours have these advantages. compare them to the compitition and look at what you need and this is why ours will be the best fit for YOU). We have enough used car saleman out there all ready.
Then when they do sell a unit teach them HOW to run it. There is to many people buying gasifiers that think they can run them like the OWB and are unhappy with them. I think that all buyers should be TOLD to come to this site to help learn and pass the knowledge on.
leaddog
I also wish the advertising would get alittle more truthfull. Like : NO SMOKE (Very little smoke on start up), 100% efficiant (87% or 91% or 56% true efficiant)
Can burn GREEN WOOD (greenwood will burn but will smoke and not burn good. Please burn 15% to 25% wood), Storage is not needed (storage will stop short cycleing and make the unit more efficiant and let you run into the warmer seasons.) Ours is better than all the others because the others don't-bla bla bla ( ours have these advantages. compare them to the compitition and look at what you need and this is why ours will be the best fit for YOU). We have enough used car saleman out there all ready.
Then when they do sell a unit teach them HOW to run it. There is to many people buying gasifiers that think they can run them like the OWB and are unhappy with them. I think that all buyers should be TOLD to come to this site to help learn and pass the knowledge on.
leaddog
Eric Johnson said:
My local Central dealer told me why there is so little info on Central's page.... They're still trying to get the trademark officially passed, and until they get the internals TM'd, no info of any real substance will be available. In fact, he can't even SELL me one right now. He told me that the only way to get one, is if you're a Central dealer, and you're buying it for YOUR OWN HOUSE. They won't even let them put one on display yet.
I guess that all makes sense if you stipulate that thier "near 100% efficiency" claims are true. If I had a design that good, I would want it TM'd before releasing the info to the masses... just my 2 cents...
P.S. Once the TM clears, and IF the info is correct, I'm buying one, period. I locked my Oil price in back in Sept of '07, at $2.67/gallon. I'm on auto delivery, and whenever we get a delivery, they have the daily price on the ticket. The last delivery we got, the "today" price was $4.09/gallon....
It's hilarious really.
All these companies are coming out like they've reinvented fire itself.
It's not rocket science guys. Good wood+good basic gasification technology+ storage = a nice clean efficient burn. Simple as that.
Synergistic combustion......... my butt
Fusion chamber........get real people!
You're just burning wood gases not plutonium for cryin' out loud!!
I have to wonder about the logic of what I've heard as far as water content on some of the brands mentioned.........as low as 7-8 gallons???
What's up with that? We all know that (A) cycling a solid wood fire is difficult to say the least and (B) large water volume makes for a nicer cleaner burn. Sounds to me like some of these manufacturers have found a loophole they can crawl through in the EPA testing criteria. I'd dare bet that these units are tested under steady state burn conditions just like the meaningless AFUE rating on gas and oil fired appliances. How often does that happen in a real world scenario without storage? Now do it in a boiler with 7 gallons of water content. Let's just say it'll be interesting.
Central and Heatmor will probably make it because they have enough cash to deluge the market with hype and advertising. Lot's of the smaller guys are going to bite the dust.
All these companies are coming out like they've reinvented fire itself.
It's not rocket science guys. Good wood+good basic gasification technology+ storage = a nice clean efficient burn. Simple as that.
Synergistic combustion......... my butt
Fusion chamber........get real people!
You're just burning wood gases not plutonium for cryin' out loud!!
I have to wonder about the logic of what I've heard as far as water content on some of the brands mentioned.........as low as 7-8 gallons???
What's up with that? We all know that (A) cycling a solid wood fire is difficult to say the least and (B) large water volume makes for a nicer cleaner burn. Sounds to me like some of these manufacturers have found a loophole they can crawl through in the EPA testing criteria. I'd dare bet that these units are tested under steady state burn conditions just like the meaningless AFUE rating on gas and oil fired appliances. How often does that happen in a real world scenario without storage? Now do it in a boiler with 7 gallons of water content. Let's just say it'll be interesting.
Central and Heatmor will probably make it because they have enough cash to deluge the market with hype and advertising. Lot's of the smaller guys are going to bite the dust.
I saw an ad the other day for Central's standard line of OWBs (not the new gasifier). This is the manufacturer's claim: "The most efficient way to burn wood."
It's a lie. People believe it.
It's a lie. People believe it.
heaterman said:
Heaterman, The mass refractory units like Greenwood, Greenfire, Adobe etc.. only have @6-8 gal. but I heard that they don't pass the .6lbs emission test. Have you heard any of this?
I was recently at their site trying to get info on the new one, but all the stuff only told me that the existing ones were the best way to burn! They compare their to all the competition and theirs comes out on top! I see they recently at least linked to their clean one...but I think their bread and butter (money) are still in the regular OWBs, so they are not pushing too hard for the clean burning.
I guess it is somewhat of a marketing conundrum - how to introduce a much better unit without admitting that the existing stuff was much worse - but I have faith they will be to do that!
Let's hope it turns out to be a good unit - heaven knows, the public needs some clean burning OWBs to choose from.
I guess it is somewhat of a marketing conundrum - how to introduce a much better unit without admitting that the existing stuff was much worse - but I have faith they will be to do that!
Let's hope it turns out to be a good unit - heaven knows, the public needs some clean burning OWBs to choose from.
leaddog said:
That's a good one Leaddog!
It's probably part of their marketing hype and maybe even what they actually think but the truth is that the competition (Tarm, Econoburn, EKO, Garn etc.) has already left them in the dust. I'm just afraid that those types of companies will crank up the advertising, fill their salesforce with all kinds of propaganda just like they did with their Smoke factory OWB's. In the long run they will hurt the entire wood burning industry because of their wild eyed salesmen and unsubstantiated claims.
Just got a real deal on the original flux capacitor -- added it to my gasifier and once gasification starts, the boiler makes more wood than it burns! The future is here. Can't release details until trademark, copyright, and patent procedures are in place, and then only if you sign a non-disclosure agreement and give your spouse and kids as collateral. I guarantee it!
I'm thinking the name will be the Flumoxed Flux-U Boilermass.
I'm thinking the name will be the Flumoxed Flux-U Boilermass.
Uh.....you can't trademark a boiler combustion design!
And even if they tried to patent it, this could take 2-4 years and would mean absolutely nothing! There are so many ways of skinning the clean burning cat, that having an extra hole somewhere or a particular refractory shape would mean very little.
Most likely, they don't have all the bugs out or don't have mass production going, etc. etc - all of which are very valid reasons for not pushing the product. The last thing a company wants to do is to put something out before its time.
And even if they tried to patent it, this could take 2-4 years and would mean absolutely nothing! There are so many ways of skinning the clean burning cat, that having an extra hole somewhere or a particular refractory shape would mean very little.
Most likely, they don't have all the bugs out or don't have mass production going, etc. etc - all of which are very valid reasons for not pushing the product. The last thing a company wants to do is to put something out before its time.
Garnification said:
Seems like I saw Greenwood on the EPA list but I'd have to find it on the web again to be sure. I was talking with someone looking at Greenwood from a dealer perspective last week. He told me that they are now coming with a battery backup, or else it's available as an option, to run the circ if the power goes off. Apparently there have been "issues" with that scenario. As in complete failure of the water jacket.........so I was told. I have no firsthand knowledge of that. One has to wonder though with any of those really low water content units that store heat in the refractory just what will happen when the retained btu's boil off all the water. In a gas or oil fired boiler that's what causes catastrophic failure, as in, BOOM!! Wouldn't want one In my house.
Maybe someone with a Greenwood will chime in here and set me straight.
Back in 1979-1980 I sold a boiler that had extremely low water capacity - it had two stainless steel pillow baffles above the fire, and all the heat was directed into these. They held less than a gallon all told.
That sucker would turn to steam in about one minute after the power or the circ failed! - And it would melt solder joints a good distance back!
At least 5 or 6 gallons might hold out a few minutes.......some european designs use a valve which opens and runs cold water (house pressure) through the DHW coil or something similar. Such a setup with the right controls will work even in a power failure.
On thing for sure - all boiler systems should have a couple fail safe fall backs.
That sucker would turn to steam in about one minute after the power or the circ failed! - And it would melt solder joints a good distance back!
At least 5 or 6 gallons might hold out a few minutes.......some european designs use a valve which opens and runs cold water (house pressure) through the DHW coil or something similar. Such a setup with the right controls will work even in a power failure.
On thing for sure - all boiler systems should have a couple fail safe fall backs.
Seeing as we're talking about the OWGB coming out, I am curious as to why I would choose an EKO or Tarm, or other indoor gasification boiler over a OWGB? Price looks to be about the same once you factor in storage, and it would keep the mess outdoors. I see that Cozy Heat doesn't have anyhthing good to say about them, but they are a EKO ans Tarm dealer, so I'm sure they want to keep selling those. So what are the downfalls to the new OWGB's?
Thanks!
Chris
Thanks!
Chris
They might be the greatest thing out there but there isn't any track record. In fact very few people have seen them. I'm not sure I want to put down big bucks untill I saw some sort of track record. Read the posts here and see that there are several makes of gasifiers, some of them are working good and some of them are working out the bugs. Also I would look and listen to what they are saying and see if they are still talking green wood, fill it up for two days worth of heat, gasification but they don't have any ceramic chambers, etc. Like I say they MIGHT to great but who knows???????????????
Also are they saying any thing about cold water return because if they don't then you might have a boiler that has lots of little holes in about 3 to 5 years.
leaddog
Also are they saying any thing about cold water return because if they don't then you might have a boiler that has lots of little holes in about 3 to 5 years.
leaddog
That's what I'm talking about. Those are the type of answers I like that help me make an informed decision. Thank you!
Now, about the cold water return. What is the problems with the cold water return? When I ask the salesman about it, what line of BS should I be looking out for.
Reason I ask is this: I was going to put in a Central Boiler until I found this site and started learning about the gasifiers. Then I was pretty sure I was going to put in a EKO after researching, and reading all the posts on here, positives and negatives The EKO seems to have fewer issues than the rest, and looks like I can get long enough burn times out of it without storage to cover the heat need while I am at work. Now the outdoor gasifiers are coming out, which on the surface, are the best of both worlds. Outdoor gasification ~ higher efficiency, less smoke, and mess is outside. Now I am back to the drawing board as to what to buy. And with a new pole barn coming this summer to heat, I figure my $1000 gas bill per year will be closer to $2000. So there will definitly be a gasification boiler in my barn/yard this fall. The question now is what route to go.
Chris
Now, about the cold water return. What is the problems with the cold water return? When I ask the salesman about it, what line of BS should I be looking out for.
Reason I ask is this: I was going to put in a Central Boiler until I found this site and started learning about the gasifiers. Then I was pretty sure I was going to put in a EKO after researching, and reading all the posts on here, positives and negatives The EKO seems to have fewer issues than the rest, and looks like I can get long enough burn times out of it without storage to cover the heat need while I am at work. Now the outdoor gasifiers are coming out, which on the surface, are the best of both worlds. Outdoor gasification ~ higher efficiency, less smoke, and mess is outside. Now I am back to the drawing board as to what to buy. And with a new pole barn coming this summer to heat, I figure my $1000 gas bill per year will be closer to $2000. So there will definitly be a gasification boiler in my barn/yard this fall. The question now is what route to go.
Chris
magnumhntr said:
Magnumhntr, What caliber do you shoot?
I hear the comment about keeping the mess outdoors from a lot of folks and it's a true statement. I have however talked to a lot of those same people after 2-3 years of trudging through the snow, filling the boiler with snowy, frozen wood and wondering why they seem to lose so much heat and the great majority would put the boiler and wood storage inside if they could do it over. I guess I would fall into that category also. A couple minutes with a broom each day doing housekeeping soon beats standing outside, trying to start a fire with wet, ice covered wood at zero degree temps. I've had numerous customers ask me to relocate their OWB into a building, which of course is illegal and something none of them are rated for. Can you say lawsuit? I'm just saying if they ever had a problem..............don't even want to go there myself but I can drive to a dozen places in a 10 mile radius and show you people that have done just that after they got tired of the snow.
How far southwest are you in Michigan? We are just finishing a large infloor job, on a water buffalo farm of all things, down in Fremont. I will be in that area this Thursday or Friday and if it would work I'd be glad to drop by and shoot the breeze with you about your upcoming project. I think I may possibly be in the Allegan neighborhood also later on. PM me if you would like.
As far as outdoor gasifiers go, the only one that I know of that's near or already in production is the Econoburn. Their unit is already EPA certified for phase 1 of the regs. The others.......I don't know about. So many wild eyed claims have been made by the OWB companies that I would be hesitant to believe practically anything they say about a new product.
My personal opinion is that putting a gasifier outside along with all that entails is going to be trouble for a lot of folks. Snow covered, frozen wood is going to take a long time to get up to gasification temperature, and then there's the issue of the added moisture cooling the flue gas.......... I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were creosote issues in the smaller flueways of these boilers because of it. Especially since purchasers of these will talk to their neighbor, who probably has a run of the mill OWB and he burns anything in it. Heck, I know a guy that picks up road killed, frozen deer takes 'em home and throws them in his OWB. He says they burn great if you get a good fire under 'em. A gasifier is a totally different animal than a run of the mill OWB.
Anyone who is going to be buying wood might likely choose an indoor type unit just because of the higher unit efficiency and smaller firebox. Larger fireboxes burn more wood...period. Many OWB owners have almost unlimited wood (cut their own, wood lots or live in very forested areas).
Then there are the issues with outside - a lot of people in semi-rural areas may be able to get an indoor unit, but don't want something in their yard or driveway, etc.
So there are a lot of reasons to choose one over the other. I suspect that once clean OWB's are truly up and running (and independently tested), they will have a good market. But that will take years.
Then there are the issues with outside - a lot of people in semi-rural areas may be able to get an indoor unit, but don't want something in their yard or driveway, etc.
So there are a lot of reasons to choose one over the other. I suspect that once clean OWB's are truly up and running (and independently tested), they will have a good market. But that will take years.
(broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/woodheaters/models.htm)
I've been keeping an eye on this site for my new owb. The list has been growing and that's good.
I've been keeping an eye on this site for my new owb. The list has been growing and that's good.
I think that putting an indoor boiler/gasifier into a small shed or pole building with some wood storage is probably the best way to go. But, as Craig points out, you lose some efficiency in the underground piping, heat exchanger if you use glycol, and heat up the stack not contributing to your home heating needs. Life's full of tradeoffs.
I would also strongly caution against buying something untested, especially if the company making the claims has a track record of making false claims in the past. I don't know about you, but I can't afford to be a guinea pig for somebody's prototype. That's one of the great things about this website--you can interact with actual users of the types of equipment you're thinking about getting.
I would also strongly caution against buying something untested, especially if the company making the claims has a track record of making false claims in the past. I don't know about you, but I can't afford to be a guinea pig for somebody's prototype. That's one of the great things about this website--you can interact with actual users of the types of equipment you're thinking about getting.
It's great that these things are getting better - but I am not too impressed by the Hardy results shown - the highest test run at 40+ GPH. That is a lot of smoke for some places - but still probably 3x as clean as a bad one (or more).
I have to agree with Eric...that if I were investing 5-10K in something, I would not want to be among the first. Then again, someone has to be.....but maybe we will leave that to the non-Hearth.com crowd. Maybe one of these manufacturers will offer a dead-serious guarantee and a buy-back (pro-rata) for a year, to prove that they have what it takes.
I have to agree with Eric...that if I were investing 5-10K in something, I would not want to be among the first. Then again, someone has to be.....but maybe we will leave that to the non-Hearth.com crowd. Maybe one of these manufacturers will offer a dead-serious guarantee and a buy-back (pro-rata) for a year, to prove that they have what it takes.
The problem I have with the current indoor gassifier is based only on reading this forum. It seems as though (my opinion only) most participants on this forum who have purchased an indoor gassifier are generally dissatisfied and or disillusioned with the whole gassification thing. Need to add this or that type of storage, learning curve, smoke out the door, not enough or too much draft, stinky creosote out the back, feed it often, and only burns (18 in. rounds, hard maple, cut from a 13 year old tree. Unless there was a drought year or two then a 15 year old tree is a must.
Kiln dried to 21.2%) "little humor here." Some must be split, some must not be split depending on the brand..... On the other hand the OWB boys just cut it, stack it, and chuck it in. burn more wood but handle it less. I'm thinking if I have to pick up 10 cords three times it's still better than burning 6 or 7 cords if I have to pick it up 7 times to burn it. As a whole they seem like a pretty satisfied group. They knew what they were buying and that's what they got. And I've been watching alot of chimneys around here. They smoke more than any owb in my area. When and if I ever see what makes these new and improved OWB's tick, if it includes all the things that are causing the problems with the gassifier I may just stay with the tried and true CB 6048. I've got all summer to educate myself and as you can see I need alot of education. One way or the other I will be burning wood next fall or a the least have a shed full on wood seasoning for the following year or two so it can be "gassified" LOL.
Kiln dried to 21.2%) "little humor here." Some must be split, some must not be split depending on the brand..... On the other hand the OWB boys just cut it, stack it, and chuck it in. burn more wood but handle it less. I'm thinking if I have to pick up 10 cords three times it's still better than burning 6 or 7 cords if I have to pick it up 7 times to burn it. As a whole they seem like a pretty satisfied group. They knew what they were buying and that's what they got. And I've been watching alot of chimneys around here. They smoke more than any owb in my area. When and if I ever see what makes these new and improved OWB's tick, if it includes all the things that are causing the problems with the gassifier I may just stay with the tried and true CB 6048. I've got all summer to educate myself and as you can see I need alot of education. One way or the other I will be burning wood next fall or a the least have a shed full on wood seasoning for the following year or two so it can be "gassified" LOL.
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