New owner; lots of smoke, old insert, no liner, bad wood?

[broken08]

Hello all,
I'd like to give some background of what I'm doing, and hopefully get some imput to further improve my process. Thanks!

We live in the foothills of Denver (7000 feet altitude) in an old, poorly insulated home, and, getting tired of $350 a month heating bills, have decided to attempt the fireplace insert. To see if we actually use it before a big investment I found an old Buck 26000 model for only $250 in good shape as far as I can tell.
I installed per the old instructions in to my big fireplace. I have a very large, 70 year old stone and cinderblock construction fireplace with an old heatilator passive heat system installed. It's a legit, large fireplace and chimney. The insert fits fine in to the box and well within the specs. I manually opened the chimney damper fully and removed the lever since it would be in the way.
So, I know there will be feelings on this, but the instructions do not call for a chimney liner, so I do not have one. I got a good seal with the finish plates of the stove, so I'm not worried about smoke coming back in. (But I do have a numerical readout CO detector in the same room to be safe.)
It seems to operate well; it gets nice and hot, the automatic fan speed control seems to function well. I have gotten no smoke back in the room and it seems to do well flowing out the chimney.
From my research this is how I operate it; Start fire, damper open, then when the fire is hot I close the damper and adjust the small air inlets to keep the fire happy. This seems to do well at staying hot and burning fairly completely. BUT I get a LOT of smoke out of the chimney constantly while doing this. I've read I should get none. I think it has the catalytic option; it has some 8" honeycomb looking circle up on the inside top.
I do have questions about my wood. It comes from my yard. It's all pine. I'm burning some wood that I cut down and sawed to logs 3 years ago, but only just split this fall. I assumed it would dry enough in log form, but I'm wondering if I'm wrong and that's why I'm getting so much smoke??
How am I supposed to adjust the air inlets? Sometimes if they are half open the fire wants to die. I almost never have actual flames going on inside; just very hot burning embers, is that normal? (maybe the wood again?)
So how bad is the unlined chimney issue?
Can I burn a CSL in this thing to clean the chimney?
Thanks for any info. I'm hoping we get some good use and decide to invest in a modern setup in the next couple years.

 

[bholler]

Hello all,
I'd like to give some background of what I'm doing, and hopefully get some imput to further improve my process. Thanks!

We live in the foothills of Denver (7000 feet altitude) in an old, poorly insulated home, and, getting tired of $350 a month heating bills, have decided to attempt the fireplace insert. To see if we actually use it before a big investment I found an old Buck 26000 model for only $250 in good shape as far as I can tell.
I installed per the old instructions in to my big fireplace. I have a very large, 70 year old stone and cinderblock construction fireplace with an old heatilator passive heat system installed. It's a legit, large fireplace and chimney. The insert fits fine in to the box and well within the specs. I manually opened the chimney damper fully and removed the lever since it would be in the way.
So, I know there will be feelings on this, but the instructions do not call for a chimney liner, so I do not have one. I got a good seal with the finish plates of the stove, so I'm not worried about smoke coming back in. (But I do have a numerical readout CO detector in the same room to be safe.)
It seems to operate well; it gets nice and hot, the automatic fan speed control seems to function well. I have gotten no smoke back in the room and it seems to do well flowing out the chimney.
From my research this is how I operate it; Start fire, damper open, then when the fire is hot I close the damper and adjust the small air inlets to keep the fire happy. This seems to do well at staying hot and burning fairly completely. BUT I get a LOT of smoke out of the chimney constantly while doing this. I've read I should get none. I think it has the catalytic option; it has some 8" honeycomb looking circle up on the inside top.
I do have questions about my wood. It comes from my yard. It's all pine. I'm burning some wood that I cut down and sawed to logs 3 years ago, but only just split this fall. I assumed it would dry enough in log form, but I'm wondering if I'm wrong and that's why I'm getting so much smoke??
How am I supposed to adjust the air inlets? Sometimes if they are half open the fire wants to die. I almost never have actual flames going on inside; just very hot burning embers, is that normal? (maybe the wood again?)
So how bad is the unlined chimney issue?
Can I burn a CSL in this thing to clean the chimney?
Thanks for any info. I'm hoping we get some good use and decide to invest in a modern setup in the next couple years.

You NEED a liner hooked to that insert. Burning it the way you have it is just asking for problems. And installing that way has been against code for many years.

And no a csl does not clean your chimney. It just makes creosote easier to brush. To clean that chimney the way you have it installed you will need to remove the insert every time. And most professional sweeps won't touch it unless they are installing a liner first.

 

[jatoxico]

If the wood was only just split then its going to be wet. To counter that you'll need to feed in a good amount of air to approach anything near a clean burn and will probably chew through some wood doing it.

The alternative is dialing back the air and smoldering but then you'll have a real creosote machine on your hands. You can also get some lumber scraps or other dry wood like untreated pallets to supplement.

I would do my best to burn hot lively fires to limit the creosote you make and be ready to pull the unit to sweep the chimney after a few weeks of regular burning so you can see where you stand. At all costs you want to avoid a chimney fire which is no joke especially in an older home.

 

[bholler]

It will be a creosote factory regardless installed as a slammer. As the gasses least the stove and enter the firebox and smoke chamber they expand rapidly which cools them allot. It is a really dangerous way to run a stove. Which is why it is no longer allowed

 

[broken08]

It will be a creosote factory regardless installed as a slammer. As the gasses least the stove and enter the firebox and smoke chamber they expand rapidly which cools them allot. It is a really dangerous way to run a stove. Which is why it is no longer allowed

Good info all. Ok, so I'll look in to the liner install asap. I am only running it on weekends at this point so no worries.
As for the liner install, it seems mostly straight forward, except that it will have to pass through the original flu passage, which is a wide rectangle, and I don't suspect that the liner will fit through it. Is there some workaround like a short rectangle section, or is it just full commitment and cutting all the metal out of the original?

I know you will laugh at this thought; but I'm trying to figure out what bad would happen if I DID have a chimney fire. On the bottom it's all sealed in with metal. And on the top it's a substantial 5 foot cinder block and rock veneer with a metal cap. Worst case the fire goes up and out the top. But it touches nothing... I know, silly thoughts and I'm going to do the right thing and play it safe asap.

Thanks all.

 

[bholler]

Good info all. Ok, so I'll look in to the liner install asap. I am only running it on weekends at this point so no worries.
As for the liner install, it seems mostly straight forward, except that it will have to pass through the original flu passage, which is a wide rectangle, and I don't suspect that the liner will fit through it. Is there some workaround like a short rectangle section, or is it just full commitment and cutting all the metal out of the original?

I know you will laugh at this thought; but I'm trying to figure out what bad would happen if I DID have a chimney fire. On the bottom it's all sealed in with metal. And on the top it's a substantial 5 foot cinder block and rock veneer with a metal cap. Worst case the fire goes up and out the top. But it touches nothing... I know, silly thoughts and I'm going to do the right thing and play it safe asap.

Thanks all.

Yes you would cut out enough metal to allow the liner to pass through.

In the case of a chimney fire there are tons of ways it can go very bad really quickly. And with your install those risks are worse. One of the common way a structure fire starts from a chimney fire is by heat transfer through the masonry because there is not proper clearance between the chimney and combustibles. In your case because you have no good connection there will be massive amounts of uncontrolled air feeding the chimney fire making it very intense.

Another way is from burning creosote flying out the top of the chimney and igniting the roof.

Another risk unique to slammers is melted burning creosote running down and out of the fireplace.

 

[Bufford]

I've been popping in from time to time for interest and ideas. I've been burning wood as my main heat source all my life, but when I saw this thread I felt that I must step in. Just don't use that stove until you have a proper chimney installed by a professional. Trust me on that one, a good chimney is a must, both for safety and for the ease of operation of the stove, and it will save you time and money in the long run on fuels.
What you have now is a time bomb, you are filling up that chimney each time you light it. From the sounds of it not burning well it could be that there is already a dangerous build up inside the chimney. Once a chimney fire gets going in a setup like that it will burn extremely intense, and there is a chance the masonary chimney will collapse or be compomised in some way that fire will start adjacent to it with in the walls, ceilings and attic. These fires are sneaky and can quickly spread.

 

[broken08]

so what is the most appropriate type of exhaust piping to buy? Does it need to be insulated?
Also I need to figure out how to attach said pipe to the stove itself. It doesn't seem to have an obvious connection type. Do I just get a rectangle to circle, set it over the opening and use some special tape?

 

[Bufford]

There are a couple of ways to go about it. One could install a liner down the chimney, or go with a factory built chimney. I would highly recommend consulting a proffessional to assess your current setup and to do the installation. You will have a safe installation that will perform well, and most insurance companies want licensed installers doing the work. The other thing is its your home and your family that you want to keep safe.

 

[bholler]

so what is the most appropriate type of exhaust piping to buy? Does it need to be insulated?
Also I need to figure out how to attach said pipe to the stove itself. It doesn't seem to have an obvious connection type. Do I just get a rectangle to circle, set it over the opening and use some special tape?

You need an insulated stainless liner. To hook it up you will need some sort of boot either bought or custom fabricated. The entire system will also need to be cleaned very well before installing the liner.